Arab World's Response to Beheading!

Larry · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
I have no problem with the death penalty, and believe that people who commit certain crimes (in Islam, murder and rape) should be put to death. That would include these people, as well as any US prison guards who killed or raped prisoners in their custody.

After this tragic event made you sick, were you enraged?

I know I keep repeating this, but I just want to keep this real, on a personal level, without the standardized espousing of laws, by-laws and Islamic doctrine. How does Rahma feel about all this, on a deep and personal level?

jameseb · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
I accept most of them, but I know to fully understand hadith, one must consider many other things.

That's exactly how Islamonline.net explained it. They turned the question over to their fatwah department. While they tried to justify what Muhammad did, it can't explain away that he did make them drink cow milk mixed with camel urine and when that didn't kill some of them he had their arms and legs cut-off and left to die slowly in the desert.

DaveSZ · May 13, 2004

newlamb said:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arabs_american_beheaded

I am so upset over this event. This is the face of Islam. Removal of hands, feet, ears, and heads. Please forgive me if I offend anyone, but this family is near where I grew up. I'm also including a link to the AP story about Nick Berg - he wasn't a fortune hunter; he was a young man out to make a difference in this world!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=10&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_american_found

Nothing justifies what they did to Berg, nor does anything justify the way Iraqi prisoners were abused by US forces.

Imagine for a minute though if a Muslim country with great military power had invaded the US to remove our president.

Do you think that Americans would sit on their hands, or do you think we would rise up to try and remove those people from our land?

I'd have to go with the latter, and perhaps that was the biggest blunder in plannng this entire war - ignoring human nature and Iraqi history.

If you look at the history of Iraq, with every occupying power, the occupiers have been dragged through the streets like those 4 contractors in Fallujah.

rahma · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
That's exactly how Islamonline.net explained it. They turned the question over to their fatwah department. While they tried to justify what Muhammad did, it can't explain away that he did make them drink cow milk mixed with camel urine and when that didn't kill some of them he had their arms and legs cut-off and left to die slowly in the desert.

James, post the link. I'll see what some more knowledgable people have to say.

jameseb · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
James, post the link. I'll see what some more knowledgable people have to say.

Here you are:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=114235

rahma · May 13, 2004

Larry said:
After this tragic event made you sick, were you enraged?

I know I keep repeating this, but I just want to keep this real, on a personal level, without the standardized espousing of laws, by-laws and Islamic doctrine. How does Rahma feel about all this, on a deep and personal level?

How I feel is always defined by islam

For me, to kill someone who is defensless is disgusting. Many things engrage me. This is one of them. But so does the deaths of 12,000 iraqi civilians.

DaveSZ · May 13, 2004

http://www.christianforums.com/t673692

Tucker Carlson and Tom Friedman have turned against the war, and they are right-wingers.

neocon · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
How I feel is always defined by islam

For me, to kill someone who is defensless is disgusting. Many things engrage me. This is one of them. But so does the deaths of 12,000 iraqi civilians.

How about the Million or more Saddam killed?

rahma · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Here you are:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=114235

This is the problem about not bringing the evidence earlier. First, i mixed up fatwa sites. I actually like this site

First, you seemed to imply that drinking urine was torture. It's a medical remedy that has been used by desert dwellers for thousands of years. Nothing bizare about that. Actually, if you have pink eye, one of the best cures is to pour your own urine over it (been there, done that, while backpacking).

Secondly, amputating limbs is the islamic punishment for stealing.

Third, death is the islamic punishment for murder.

I see nothing wrong with this punishment. They were guilty, and receiving their punishment.

jameseb · May 13, 2004

DaveSZ said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t673692

Tucker Carlson and Tom Friedman have turned against the war, and they are right-wingers.

Dave........ honestly, what does this have to do with this topic?

rahma · May 13, 2004

neocon said:
How about the Million or more Saddam killed?

And he who intentionally kills a believer, his reward is Hell. He shall abide therein forever, and the wrath and the curse of God are upon him. He has prepared for him a dreadful doom. (4:93)

Larry · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
How I feel is always defined by islam

For me, to kill someone who is defensless is disgusting. Many things engrage me. This is one of them. But so does the deaths of 12,000 iraqi civilians.

I like to discuss things - one at a time - pragmatically, and not try to tie other events into the issue at hand. Right now, we are focused on the issue of the Muslim response to what those men did to Berg - separate and apart from any other issue. We can talk about the other issues in other threads.

Tell me, would you be among the crowd of the public execution of these men if they were found guilty and you had the chance to be there?

rahma · May 13, 2004

Larry said:
Tell me, would you be among the crowd of the public execution of these men if they were found guilty and you had a chance to be there?

No, I don't like violence. My husband probably would be though.

jameseb · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
This is the problem about not bringing the evidence earlier. First, i mixed up fatwa sites. I actually like this site

First, you seemed to imply that drinking urine was torture. It's a medical remedy that has been used by desert dwellers for thousands of years. Nothing bizare about that. Actually, if you have pink eye, one of the best cures is to pour your own urine over it (been there, done that, while backpacking).

Actually, I did err on that. Its been a while since I read the article. The camel urine was not meant as torture.... though you could have pointed out it was used for medicinal purposes earlier. And I did mention Islamonline.net!

Secondly, amputating limbs is the islamic punishment for stealing.

khiyaana, I believe that was the crime.

Third, death is the islamic punishment for murder.

I see nothing wrong with this punishment. They were guilty, and receiving their punishment.

Well, that's where I differ. I call that torture... and I can put that issue aside as my real intent is to point out the brutality of 'God's prophet.' It is acts such as this that supports the violence of terrorists.

Larry · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
No, I don't like violence. My husband probably would be though.

Is that the norm? I mean, is it mostly the men who attend these public executions?

rahma · May 13, 2004

jameseb said:
Well, that's where I differ. I call that torture... and I can't put that issue aside as my real intent is to point out the brutality of 'God's prophet.' It is acts such as this that supports the violence of terrorists.

Did you not read the end of the fatwa?

All in all, using this story as evidence in favor of the permissibility of torturing people in Islam is refuted by the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) applied the punishment for Hirabah on them and that he did not do so for personal vengeance.

The description by the questioner was ultimatly false, in that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) did not leave them there to die slowly. Most likely they were already dead when he left.

This hadith would be falsely applied by the people in the video, as the person in question had committed no crime that required haribah punishment.

As well as read this http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=78490

rahma · May 13, 2004

Larry said:
Is that the norm? I mean, is it mostly the men who attend these public executions?

Probably. It makes sense, as more men then women play violent video games, join the army, are murders and watch violent movies.

In my husband's defense, he wouldn't be out there watching every execution, just ones that effect society as a whole.

Larry · May 13, 2004

DaveSZ said:
Nothing justifies what they did to Berg, nor does anything justify the way Iraqi prisoners were abused by US forces.

Imagine for a minute though if a Muslim country with great military power had invaded the US to remove our president.

Do you think that Americans would sit on their hands, or do you think we would rise up to try and remove those people from our land?

I'd have to go with the latter, and perhaps that was the biggest blunder in plannng this entire war - ignoring human nature and Iraqi history.

If you look at the history of Iraq, with every occupying power, the occupiers have been dragged through the streets like those 4 contractors in Fallujah.

This is interesting.

In a thread discussing the Arab response to Berg's beheading, we have the only the first 7 words in this entire post addressing it, and the rest of the post is focused on anything but the OP topic. It's almost as if the discussion of th OP topic is secondary to all the other politically motivated fodder, and the seven words addressing it were merely an 'in' to getting up on our political soap box.

Amazing!

jameseb · May 13, 2004

rahma said:
Did you not read the end of the fatwa?

Yes, I most definitely read it. I still call it torture, and cite it as one more example of Muhammad's brutality.

The description by the questioner was ultimatly false, in that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) did not leave them there to die slowly. Most likely they were already dead when he left.

"Most likely?" You discount this story without even being familiar with the hadith... just as I.

This hadith would be falsely applied by the people in the video, as the person in question had committed no crime that required haribah punishment.

But they see this as a war on Islam. Muhammad endorses warfare. Do they really have to stretch too far to come to an act like this? If so, why is it Islam that produces such an abnormal amount of violent terrorists?

Let me go back to another issue regarding Muhammad...... the killing of the girl who wrote satirical poems about him. What justification was there in killing her? What law did she break? Could you elaborate on that?

Larry · May 13, 2004

DaveSZ said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t673692

Tucker Carlson and Tom Friedman have turned against the war, and they are right-wingers.

Yet another post to distract attention from the OP.

Dave, I'm sure you have some valid points, worthy of discussion. But, how about discussing them in another thread. Okay?

Arab World's Response to Beheading!

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