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Approaches to theology

Fervent

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I agree these are very important first steps we should take in biblical hermeneutics. I would also add that obscure texts should be vetted as much as possible using clear and fluid texts.
That principle is definitely good in theory, yet practically can be difficult to make use of. After all, what appears to be the "clear" passage to one will appear ambiguous to another. Identifying the purpose of the text can also be immensely helpful, especially if there is a text that is didactic that appears to oppose one that is poetic.
 
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Fervent

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I think if we go back from the systematic theology of Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Karl Barth, or Protopresbyter Michael Pomazanansky, to the proto-systematic dogmatic theology of John Damascene, Athanasius and Origen, and then blend that into the mystical theology of the Desert Fathers, the Cappadocians, and Psuedo-Dionysius the Aeropagite, this takes us to Symeon the New Theologian, whose work was defended by Gregory of Palamas, the Byzantine counterpart to Thomas Aquinas, and Nicodemus the Hagiorite and Macarius of Corinth, we get a systematic exposition of the mystical theology of Byzantine, Syrian and Coptic monasticism, in particular, the wonder at the incarnation of God who is in essence unknowable, making Himself known as a man, and the exploration of the concept of continuous prayer.

This mode of theology is not a substitute for systematic or dogmatic theology, but an additional dimension of theological exploration.

Additionally, I would like to thrown in apophatic theology, the via negativa, as a superior way of reasoning about God from revealed texts, since God is unknowable except through His energies, such as the acts of our Lord in the Incarnation, we can only think about the essence of God by using that which has been revealed in scripture to exclude erroneous statements. For example, we can say “God does not change” but not that “God is static.”
I really love this contribution, as it highlights that the goal of our theology does not necessarily need to be application but as a devotional effort in itself which can easily be lost in rigorous theological exploration.
 
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GallagherM

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I agree these are very important first steps we should take in biblical hermeneutics. I would also add that obscure texts should be vetted as much as possible using clear and fluid texts.

You are right about these steps and am in agreement with you. What do you mean specifically when you say obscure text?
 
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GallagherM

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I think if we go back from the systematic theology of Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Karl Barth, or Protopresbyter Michael Pomazanansky, to the proto-systematic dogmatic theology of John Damascene, Athanasius and Origen, and then blend that into the mystical theology of the Desert Fathers, the Cappadocians, and Psuedo-Dionysius the Aeropagite, this takes us to Symeon the New Theologian, whose work was defended by Gregory of Palamas, the Byzantine counterpart to Thomas Aquinas, and Nicodemus the Hagiorite and Macarius of Corinth, we get a systematic exposition of the mystical theology of Byzantine, Syrian and Coptic monasticism, in particular, the wonder at the incarnation of God who is in essence unknowable, making Himself known as a man, and the exploration of the concept of continuous prayer.

This mode of theology is not a substitute for systematic or dogmatic theology, but an additional dimension of theological exploration.

Additionally, I would like to thrown in apophatic theology, the via negativa, as a superior way of reasoning about God from revealed texts, since God is unknowable except through His energies, such as the acts of our Lord in the Incarnation, we can only think about the essence of God by using that which has been revealed in scripture to exclude erroneous statements. For example, we can say “God does not change” but not that “God is static.”

What would you say of all of these people and their handed down traditions of thinking of man; are the beneficiary to the cause and purpose to the kingdom of God in any way by chance? Would there be or are there any dangers with the use of them?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You are right about these steps and am in agreement with you. What do you mean specifically when you say obscure text?
Those involving Jewish idioms,poetry, imagery, hyperbole etc.
 
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hedrick

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Wasn't John Calvin someone whom formed the doctrine of people were going to burn in hell forever and ever in their flesh? That only the elect are the only ones who will go and be with God? That God was totally happy and content with this decision ? Only limited atonement that Jesus Christ did not pay for the sins of all the world? Or am I miss representing Calvin (God rest his soul)? My apologies if so.

If anyone has any other points to Fervent Original post please feel free to post and share your view and comments with others friends!
No. Here is what Calvin said: “Many persons … have entered into ingenious debates about the eternal fire by which the wicked will be tormented after judgment. But we may conclude from many passages of Scripture that it is a metaphorical expression … Let us lay aside the speculations, by which foolish men weary themselves to no purpose, and satisfy ourselves with believing that these forms of speech denote, in a manner suited to our feeble capacity, a dreadful torment, which no man can now comprehend and no language can express”
 
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GallagherM

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Hmmm interesting, Hedrick. Where was this quoted from? I’ve heard many things about Jon or John Calvin years ago; and this was something never brought to my attention. It was told to me that Calvin created the tulip, and acted or taught as though God was a sovereign God but like that of the sovereignty of a dictator ‘of a sovereign leader’ on earth. I don’t judge the man nor agree with the created theology either way of what is considered Calvinism. Maybe this quote was more near the end of his life rather than his started uprising. I can not say for sure; God rest his soul.
 
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hedrick

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Hmmm interesting, Hedrick. Where was this quoted from? I’ve heard many things about Jon or John Calvin years ago; and this was something never brought to my attention. It was told to me that Calvin created the tulip, and acted or taught as though God was a sovereign God but like that of the sovereignty of a dictator ‘of a sovereign leader’ on earth. I don’t judge the man nor agree with the created theology either way of what is considered Calvinism. Maybe this quote was more near the end of his life rather than his started uprising. I can not say for sure; God rest his soul.
The quote was from his commentary on Mat 3:12.

First, Calvin did not accept all 5 points of TULIP, in particular limited atonement. Second, predestination isn’t as central to his theology as it was to later Calvinists. It wasn’t in the first edition of the Institutes. In later editions it was near the end.

I would say it’s not so much a result of sovereignty as providence. (I’m following here John Leith’s views from his PhD thesis.) For him it’s inconceivable that some people are saved and some damned by chance. We have to assume it’s part of God’s plan. He wants to assure people that anything that happens to them comes from God. He can’t do that if critical decisions are things he didn't intend. Frankly this is a hard argument to answer, though something like Molinism might work. (That says that God plans based on his knowledge of how people would react in a given situation. But we still have to ask why he allows damnation. Calvin assumes that God has good reason for what he does, and it's not just because he can't come up with a better alternative. Anything that happens must be because of his specific intention.)
 
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The Liturgist

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I really love this contribution, as it highlights that the goal of our theology does not necessarily need to be application but as a devotional effort in itself which can easily be lost in rigorous theological exploration.

That means so much to me to hear that from you, a member of an esteemed institution whose academics I deeply respect. Thank you my friend, and God bless your vocation!
 
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The Liturgist

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Wasn't John Calvin someone whom formed the doctrine of people were going to burn in hell forever and ever in their flesh? That only the elect are the only ones who will go and be with God? That God was totally happy and content with this decision ? Only limited atonement that Jesus Christ did not pay for the sins of all the world? Or am I miss representing Calvin (God rest his soul)? My apologies if so.

If anyone has any other points to Fervent Original post please feel free to post and share your view and comments with others friends!

Not exactly, since the early church fathers tended to believe that (although others, like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, believed in apokatastasis, which is not universalism per se but rather a belief in the possibility of the purifying restoration of all things; a clumsy explanation of which is given in the concluding chapters of The Book of the Bee, an attempted chronology of the entire past and future by the Assyrian bishop Mar Solomon of Basra from the 9th century; Origen, who many had venerated as a saint, was anathematized by Emperor Justinian, an anathema ratified at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, for teaching universalism, but this many feel was simply an over exaggeration of his doctrine of Apokatastasis).

Rather the doctrine associated with many forms of Calvinism that is highly controversial is the idea that some people, the “reprobates” are simply predestined, or foreordained, for damnation, whereas the Elect have been “elected” not based on their free will but by divine choice. This led to Arminius responding with something closer to the consensus patrum as received by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox tradition and by the Roman Catholics, although a common misconception is to say that everything that is not Calvinist is Arminian, whereas actually Arminius formed a specific doctrine, an Arminian Reformed Church, which still exists in the Netherlands but which sadly like many of the ancient churches has made decisions on human sexuality which traditionalists like myself regard as unbiblical. I wish we would use non-Calvinist instead of Arminius to refer to churches where there is free will, but the soteriology and eschatology does not precisely match the teachings of Arminius.
 
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The Liturgist

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I agree these are very important first steps we should take in biblical hermeneutics. I would also add that obscure texts should be vetted as much as possible using clear and fluid texts.

Just out of curiosity, what do you include in your definition of fluid texts?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Just out of curiosity, what do you include in your definition of fluid texts?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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GallagherM

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@hedrick thank you for trying to answer; Ill just have to leave the answer as inclusive cause not looking for an argument; but rather truth. If people desire to look for more information they can go and search for those types of insights that lead to facts of what John Calvin taught, did, or said. (God rest his soul).

Its possible to ask more questions but wont.

@The Liturgist Okay if that is what you suggest. My thought if anyone is curious is though considering that from my experience going in and out of Churches there nothing ever really taught to me. There was just video games; pool tables; making this church look hip ( going when was younger ) ; singing and praise and little understanding about the word when going for myself. There was another church that was neat though; there was only about 7 people that went there; they allowed me to go up and say something from the bible and what not.

For me I still believe is best to go and learn and read the bible for oneself and to seek God in spirit and in truth; and to even take a look for outside external resources over what people and their opinions may be because truth is paramount over our opinions I believe, and that would trump even traditions of men. Gods way are not the way of mens and our limited thinking that is for certain.

(Also in note of reading and teaching to others you may allow others at the end of your teaching to comment with insights or questions to leave an open forum with others to dialogue). You do not get that with a lot of churches it is just a message of whatever it may be then after the end all go home.

I like truth more than opinions much love to you people though and may the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all of your families spirit, the love of God, and the fellowship of the holy spirit. Remember to keep praying for those who hate or accuse you wrongly; and your families friends, always lift up your prayers to God, with pure motives.

Keep seeking for truth. :) Take care.
 
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The Liturgist

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What would you say of all of these people and their handed down traditions of thinking of man; are the beneficiary to the cause and purpose to the kingdom of God in any way by chance?

I would deny these are traditions of men, but rather represent the Holy Spirit at work in the Church over time, and this is specifically some the fruits of the Spirit produced by the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East over 2,000 years, most of which were spent being persecuted by the Roman Empire, the pre-Christian governments of the Slavic lands, Caucasia, Muslims, Communists, Hindus (in addition to the active persecution of Christians in India by Hindus and Muslims, despite Christians being the third largest religion and twice the size of the Sikhs and Jains, they will not fight back like the Sikhs and are not revered like the Jains outside of Malankara, it was a Hindu who martyred Thomas the Apostle in 53 AD, but the Church of India still exists, and in Kerala, which was until the formation of the State of Israel the population center of Indian Jews, like the Sassoon family (Vidal Sassoon being the most famous Keralan Jew), is to be found what is probably the only surviving church building from the first century), Buddhists (who it appears assisted Tamerlane in his genocide of the Christians in China, Mongolia and Tibet), the Mongolian Khanates, the Turks, Islamic fundamentalists, ISIS, and so on. The blood spilled by Eastern Christians represents more of this fruit.

There is also much spiritual fruit in terms of theology, mystical and intellectual, from both the pre-schism pan-Chalcedonian, post-schism* Roman Catholic, and Protestant dimensions of the Western Church, like Irish monasticism, Benedictine scholasticism which gave us Universities and Higher Learning (Oxford and Cambridge were originally monasteries), Scholastic theology, pre-Reformation mystical theology, such as Carthusian and Cistercian monasticism and Carmelite, Franciscan, Dominican, Augustinian and Servite religious living , then the enormous event that was the Reformation, which I think helped tje Roman Catholic Church purify itself of many corrupt elements during the Council of Trent, like the sale of indulgences, even as the Western churches were freed from Papal supremacy.

Post-reformation Western mystical theology occurs in both Roman Catholic (St. Francis de Sales, St. Philip Neri, St. John of the Cross, to name a few) and Protestant forms (Count Zinzendorf, the protector of the Moravians, John and Charles Wesley, who were indirectly influenced by the Moravians and their fusion of his mystical theology with Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran and indigenous Czech Reformation theology, and among Lutherans, the great Danish mystic Soren Kierkegaard, among many others, such as some of the Lutheran Pietists, as well as more extreme mystical theologians such as George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, who was definitely Christian but had a radical idea about worship, and the related Quietist tradition).

And plenty of Western Christians died at the hands of Muslims, Communists, and in the mission fields over the years, and many more were killed.

So mystical theology has both an Eastern and Western component.

I am more interested in the Eastern component, because of my interest in theology as prayer, and the definition of theology as knowledge of God, and the consistency of Orthodox Hesychast views such as the unknowability of the Divine Essence, his knowability through His Incarnation in the person of the Son,” and constant prayer with a literal interpretation of Scripture (John 1:18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:17).

But in either case, the fruit of the spirit evident in the Eastern church, such as the martyrdoms, the resilience of faith in spite of persecution, the preservation of Patristic tradition, such as the ancient models of theology, the ancient hymns and liturgies, the canon law of the early church (Rome has rewritten its canon law repeatedly, as have most Protestant churches, and some of the ancient canons, such as those prohibiting ministers from hitting, slapping or striking anyone for any reason, and from managing the financial affairs of their congregants, are extremely wise and should be adopted by every church), and also the ability of the Eastern churches to avoid ever experiencing as disruptive event, and as bloody an event owing to the subsequent Wars of Religion, as the Protestant Reformation, which was itself needed to free the Roman church of the corruption of the Borgias and their successors, but which cost a very high price in human suffering and death - this never happened in the Eastern church because no Eastern church ever found itself in a predicament with hierarchical corruption like the Western church found itself in during the High Renaissance, this all helps to legitimize Eastern mystical theology, because mystical theology is fundamental to the Eastern church.

Would there be or are there any dangers with the use of them?

Actually, in some cases, primarily for monastics, yes, and the Eastern Orthodox authors who write on Hesychasm warn about this; about half of the Philokalia consists of ascetics warning others of the dangers of pride and spiritual delusion. This is also the central theme in the Ladder of Divine Ascent, written for monastics but widely read by the laity, and more recently, The Arena, by Ignatius Brianchaninov.

But the same author wrote On The Prayer of Jesus for the laity, and for the laity who pray the Jesus Prayer as part of their prayer life (“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner”, this is completely harmless, being taken from two Gospel verses, and its regular prayer, or the prayer of the shortened version common to both East and West, “Lord have Mercy” (Kyrie Eleison), along with the reverential use of the Lord’s Prayer, which we know from the Didache that early Christians recited times daily, is extremely beneficial, and more accessible to most Protestants than the Rosary.

* I refer of course to the Great Schism of 1054, in which the Roman Catholics began to break communion with the Eastern Orthodox over the refusal of the Orthodox to submit to Papal Supremacy, a process that was concluded with the persecution of the Orthodox, who were sometimes victims of cannibalism, in the Crusades, and the subsequent rejection by the laity of the re-union with Rome on Roman Catholic terms negotiated and supported by most of the Greek Orthodox bishops at the Council of Florence in the 1430s, a rejection made in the knowledge that it would lead to the conquest Constantinople and the remaining Byzantine lands by the Ottoman Empire, and the brutal subjugation of the populace by the Muslims.
 
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GallagherM

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Dont forget Cults, and how man can make the bible say anything friend! (Interesting you know all these things as they are profound to me ) because no knowledge here on many of the things you speak about; here just read the bible and study it though have been presented with many arguments of what it looks like to have traditions of man in a persons life and how that sometimes the church itself can keep a group of people in bondage rather than allowing them to be freed by teaching Jesus Christ. Freedom is important I believe and the truth shall set us free!
 
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The Liturgist

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@The Liturgist Okay if that is what you suggest. My thought if anyone is curious is though considering that from my experience going in and out of Churches there nothing ever really taught to me. There was just video games; pool tables; making this church look hip ( going when was younger ) ; singing and praise and little understanding about the word when going for myself. There was another church that was neat though; there was only about 7 people that went there; they allowed me to go up and say something from the bible and what not.

Hold on a second brother - are those the only churches you have ever been to? Because only the second one even sounds like a church to me. The first one sounds like a retro 80s bar designed to appeal to ageing Gen Xers like me.

For me I still believe is best to go and learn and read the bible for oneself and to seek God in spirit and in truth;

If I had only seen the miserable excuses for churches you had seen (forgive me, that might be too harsh on the second church that you liked, it sounds potentially decent, but it did fail to retain you as a member and I don’t see you talking about Holy Communion or singing the hymns or psalms or other things I would expect), I would probably feel that way also.

and to even take a look for outside external resources over what people and their opinions may be because truth is paramount over our opinions I believe, and that would trump even traditions of men. Gods way are not the way of mens and our limited thinking that is for certain..

If you read the Bible, in the New Testament, it is made clear that our salvation in Christ is through His Church, and participation in a local church for baptism and partaking of Holy Communion is spiritually vital. See 1 Corinthians 10-11 . One book, written in a denominationally neutral manner, free from denominational influence, which I think does a good idea of outlining the basics of the Christian experience, including fellowship in Church, is Mere Christianity, by CS Lewis. Read it, even if you agree with me that his Narnia stories I was subjected to in Christian school are silly and annoying.
 
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GallagherM

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You can have church anywhere. Talking to your mom or a friend about God; is good enough. You know one of the greatest verses that keeps me going is that of “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:7). Helping others in their faith is vitally important to help and encourage people to say close and connected with God. Though in this life there is difficulties in this suffering for Christ Jesus.

@The Liturgist : There was another church went and seen a pastor putting his hands on peoples head and the people were falling over; and acting as though they were speaking in tongues, and people were on the floor acting as those they were climbing a ladder to heaven. It was very shocking. The second church they did sing hymns and steven I believe was his name gave me freely a kjv bible and even a concordance. In life am thankful for my experiences with the few people in churches who did express love to someone who just did not go along with the traditions of men. You may noticed my stigma of making it very clear that it is an existent factor of being alive today in churches.

One time even seen this pastor say this "DO NOT FORGET TO PAY YOUR TITHES FOR THIS CHURCH THAT YOU WANTED" - They had plans on all kinds of things, and there was so very little words of Christ Jesus.

(Hymns and praises are nice and everything but that word is what I desire to hear. I wanna hear someone teach me the word; and help me understand and to learn and grow in Christ. Not just good feely stories and all that malarkey.)

Hope you understand my position if people wanna go and do things religiously by the confines of what a church might make demands on people to do that is all fine and well; I however will go right to the exact opposite way.

Another story is my friend who is disabled; Him and his wife went to go hear about the good news and the pastor got up preaching "HELL FIRE AND DAMNATION" ... Education is needed and truth... truth on the subjects people talk about in context. They just got up and walked out of the church.

Why, when, where, what, and how : I told him my view on all that and explain that Hades/Hell gives up it's dead and told him you can go check the bible against me on that if you want because most people discredit it and believe still exist now today because of the traditions of keeping hell alive when the bible clearly expresses the emptying out of Hell/Hades/She'ol.
 
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The Liturgist

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Dont forget Cults, and how man can make the bible say anything friend! (Interesting you know all these things as they are profound to me )

I was going to tell @Fervent my other favorite areas of theology are liturgics (the study of formal prayer and sacraments) church history, Patristics, ecclesiology, Christology, and heresiology (which is the study of cults). It is possible to test a church to make sure it is not a cult, in a number of ways, which require looking at their theology and their leadership system. This is one advantage of larger denominational churches, which tend to have safeguarding in place to prevent cult like abuse. Right now, for a Protestant like you, I would say the safest Protestant churches are the traditional parishes in the mainline denominations, the LCMS, the Continuing Anglican and ACNA churches, the WELS and Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Christian Reformed Church, and those parishes of the PCA, OPC and SBC that (a) have traditional worship and (b) are not associated with 9Marks. But I also do love the Eastern churches; a Russian Orthodox priest once delivered me from extreme suffering.

because no knowledge here on many of the things you speak about; here just read the bible and study it though have been presented with many arguments of what it looks like to have traditions of man in a persons life and how that sometimes the church itself can keep a group of people in bondage rather than allowing them to be freed by teaching Jesus Christ. Freedom is important I believe and the truth shall set us free!

You’ve got to distinguish between The Church, which belongs to Jesus Christ, and a church, which could be an individual denomination, parish or congregation which may or may not be authentically Christian, preaching Christ Crucified, keeping a perpetual remembrance of the blood of Christ shed for our salvation on the Cross, through the Eucharist, and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as commanded in the New Testament.
 
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The Liturgist

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You can have church anywhere. Talking to your mom or a friend about God; is good enough. You know one of the greatest verses that keeps me going is that of “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:7). Helping others in their faith is vitally important to help and encourage people to say close and connected with God. Though in this life there is difficulties in this suffering for Christ Jesus.

@The Liturgist : There was another church went and seen a pastor putting his hands on peoples head and the people were following over; and acting as though they were speaking in tongues, and people were on the floor acting as those they were climbing a ladder to heaven. It was very shocking. The second church they did sing hymns and steven I believe was his name gave me freely a kjv bible and even a concordance. In life am thankful for my experiences with the few people in churches who did express love to someone who just did not go along with the traditions of men. You may noticed my stigma of making it very clear that it is an existent factor of being alive today in churches.

One time even seen this pastor say this "DO NOT FORGET TO PAY YOUR TITHES FOR THIS CHURCH THAT YOU WANTED" - They had plans on all kinds of things, and there was so very little words of Christ Jesus.

(Hymns and praises are nice and everything but that word is what I desire to hear. I wanna hear someone teach me the word; and help me understand and to learn and grow in Christ. Not just good feely stories and all that malarkey.)

Hope you understand my position if people wanna go and do things religiously by the confines of what a church might make demands on people to do that is all fine and well; I however will go right to the exact opposite way.

Another story is my friend who is disabled; Him and his wife went to go hear about the good news and the pastor got up preaching "HELL FIRE AND DAMNATION" ... Education is needed and truth... truth on the subjects people talk about in context. They just got up and walked out of the church.

Why, when, where, what, and how : I told him my view on all that and explain that Hades/Hell gives up it's dead and told him you can go check the bible against me on that if you want because most people discredit it and believe still exist now today because of the traditions of keeping hell alive when the bible clearly expresses the emptying out of Hell/Hades/She'ol.

Dude, I have to say you’ve had some of the worst luck of anyone I know when it comes to finding a church. The one guy who put his heads on people, who would fall into contortions, who preached about the need for more money, is a dangerous charlatan. And as for the hellfire and damnation guy, there are too many uneducated cowboy preachers out there who think they are Jonathan Edwards and forget that Christ said “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” and “Feed my sheep,” not frighten them to death.
 
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GallagherM

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Am glad to have gotten to experience the uneducated side; and as far as I know everyone of them had faith; they just believed differently due to the traditions they had. It has set me on the course for the desire of truth now in life compared to opinions of what men may so. Though will love them if they do whatever is they do when it comes down to their religious beliefs. Thank you for your chat @The Liturgist : for the most people those who are stuck in religious traditions it is possible that they have been maligned if anything. God bless them, and may God be with you and all heres family. Take care.
 
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