Apostolic Traditions or small 't' traditions?

[trulytheone]

Do the Eastern Orthodox have to believe that all the relics purported to be from the saints and the apostles truly came from them? Do they have to believe that the icon purported to be from St. Luke was indeed painted by St. Luke?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Will be interested to hear what Fr. Matts response.

Relics are part of the official church liturgical/sacramental Tradition and has lots of significance in various ways to the EO (and OO as well). Various priests and other clergy have a lot of variability based on their bishops position, but a lot has to do with how much skepticism of the inquirer. I can see some folks working with someone who has some doubt or moderate skepticism from a would be seeker, but a lot has to do with the seeker. I expect a negative prognosis for someone who is very opinionated on the subject.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if it's affirmed by the Church, then yes.

 

[trulytheone]

if it's affirmed by the Church, then yes.

So does this mean that an Eastern Orthodox Christian couldn't be skeptical about the origin of relics being purportedly from the saints and the apostles? You couldn't doubt that some of them might be fakes?

 

[trulytheone]

I asked this because of the preponderance of fakes during the middle ages, especially in the Roman Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So does this mean that an Eastern Orthodox Christian couldn't be skeptical about the origin of relics being purportedly from the saints and the apostles? You couldn't doubt that some of them might be fakes?

if Orthodoxy is true, she won't affirm that which is false, even if individuals within her might

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wonder if the question needs to be teased out?

Certainly the teaching on relics in general is part of the Church, and we can't put our own understanding above that and consider that we know better than the Church. That's true on any question.

But are you asking if it's absolute dogma that every single relic is rightly labeled? And if one has doubt that any one of them could be misidentified, one can't be Orthodox at all?

Iirc some relics have been discovered without anyone knowing whose they were. People might have had a dream that suggested some information. God's grace is active. The Church accepts some of this revelation. But I'm not sure the identity of the Saint, for example, would be absolute dogma???

 

[trulytheone]

But are you asking if it's absolute dogma that every single relic is rightly labeled? And if one has doubt that any one of them could be misidentified, one can't be Orthodox at all?

Yes!!

 

[All4Christ]

Also, I’d say that to be chrismated, you don’t need to fully understand everything. I didn’t reject relics, but I didn’t fully understand it and wasn’t fully comfortable with my own veneration of them when I was chrismated. Some things make more sense over time.

 

[trulytheone]

Also, I’d say that to be chrismated, you don’t need to fully understand everything. I didn’t reject relics, but I didn’t fully understand it and wasn’t fully comfortable with my own veneration of them when I was chrismated. Some things make more sense over time.

I think I need to clarify. I am not even a catechumen. I am just a Christian currently doubting everything (even the essentials of Christianity). I am interested in learning about some other Christian groups.

I am not an opponent of the veneration of relics; I am simply asking if an Eastern Orthodox has to believe that all relics in Orthodox Churches are from whom they were puportedly from. Does an Eastern Orthodox have to believe that the belt puportedly from the Virgin really came from the Virgin? Does he or she have to believe that the icon purportedly painted by St. Luke really came from St. Luke. Or could there be nuance (e.g. the belt is not directly from the Virgin, but it has been blessed by its contact with a true relic from the Virgin)? Could an Eastern Orthodox believe that, at least, St. Luke painted an icon but what we have today is simply the replica of the original icon that was lost?

 

[trulytheone]

Or do the Eastern Orthodox have to strictly believe in their authenticity?

 

[All4Christ]

I think I need to clarify. I am not even a catechumen. I am just a Christian currently doubting everything (even the essentials of Christianity). I am interested in learning about some other Christian groups.

I am not an opponent of the veneration of relics; I am simply asking if an Eastern Orthodox has to believe that all relics in Orthodox Churches are from whom they were puportedly from. Does an Eastern Orthodox have to believe that the belt puportedly from the Virgin really came from the Virgin? Does he or she have to believe that the icon purportedly painted by St. Luke really came from St. Luke. Or could there be nuance (e.g. the belt is not directly from the Virgin, but it has been blessed by its contact with a true relic from the Virgin)? Could an Eastern Orthodox believe that, at least, St. Luke painted an icon but what we have today is simply the replica of the original icon that was lost?

I don’t think you are required to believe each relic is accurate, but I haven’t had the same type of doubts myself. I was someone who struggled with the very concept of relics. My comment earlier was a comment about what we are required to believe in order to be Orthodox, rather than a direct answer to your question.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Or do the Eastern Orthodox have to strictly believe in their authenticity?

This is one of those questions that is likely not to have a really articulated position. Orthodox and other Eastern Christians are set up to deal with basic objections both old and new concerning icons and commandment against graven images, but I doubt anybody has made this kind of specific objection where you get a text book catechism like answer on them other than the Church has relics as part of its Tradition and the general theology and meaning behind them. Would be something to ask a bishop though if you ever run across one.


I got admit in the Coptic church that kind of thought crossed my mind when we had a special feast day with a relic, but I always saw it more important from the liturgical and Eclessiological standpoint of paying respect to someone who made a difference in the Church rather than quibbling about the actual factual accuracy of the item.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Or do the Eastern Orthodox have to strictly believe in their authenticity?

on what has been consistently taught? yes.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes!!

We don't have as tightly defined and exhaustive list of so many things you absolutely MUST believe in order to be Orthodox.

What we need to accept is the wisdom of the Church, and that she has reasons for doing what she does.

The kinds of things that seriously interfere with communion (a person who was baptized Orthodox, but the priest feels it is wise and even best for the sake of the person to refrain from the Eucharist are things like not believing in the divinity of Christ, not believing there is a need for them to repent and stop committing adultery, and things like that. (There is more nuance to what I'm saying and to your question than that simple answer, but I'm trying to give an example of serious breach of dogma.)

I don't think it's an individual's fault to be concerned about the authenticity of SOME relics because there are known fakes in the world (not in Orthodoxy specifically, but it has been done). If a person was seeking to become Orthodox, that's something to talk to a priest about. But I imagine that a doubt that says "some relics somewhere might be mislabeled" wouldn't keep a person out of the Church. A doubt that says "the Church has intentionally foisted supposed relics on the faithful and faked everything" on the other hand would be a lack of trust in the Church altogether and that would be a problem with their mindset, more so than their particular belief.

But Orthodoxy doesn't seek to control every little thought and belief. We have a certain freedom in many aspects. Distrust of the Church altogether isn't really conducive to our faith though - although we recognize that any individual Saint, Father, or Christian can make an error, since we don't believe any person is infallible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I realize that's not exactly an answer, but I hope it begins to address what it seems like you may really be asking?

 

[☦Marius☦]

if it's affirmed by the Church, then yes.

Forgive me Father, but wouldn't it be more of a spiritual recommendation to believe that which the church has excepted as legitimate rather then required unless it is of Holy Tradition? While venerating relics is itself a holy Tradition, each Individual relict would not have such an affirmation.

So does this mean that an Eastern Orthodox Christian couldn't be skeptical about the origin of relics being purportedly from the saints and the apostles? You couldn't doubt that some of them might be fakes?

You could doubt, and be skeptical. I would still venerate them just in case they are in fact legitimate. Since it would be impossible to know which are which then generally I'd just venerate what is put in front of me in true prayer to the Saint and leave it at that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Forgive me Father, but wouldn't it be more of a spiritual recommendation to believe that which the church has excepted as legitimate rather then required unless it is of Holy Tradition? While venerating relics is itself a holy Tradition, each Individual relict would not have such an affirmation.

if venerating relics is a part of Holy Tradition, then each relic does have such an affirmation.

 

[All4Christ]

if venerating relics is a part of Holy Tradition, then each relic does have such an affirmation.

Does the Church examine individual relics to ensure that they truly are what they are purported to be? Often, relics are given to churches or people, and are not directly taken from the saint. Are they at some point validated by the Church?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does the Church examine individual relics to ensure that they truly are what they are purported to be? Often, relics are given to churches or people, and are not directly taken from the saint. Are they at some point validated by the Church?

no, the relics are from the saint. I was given some from St Alexis Toth when his reliquary was opened.