Apostates and why they apostasize

[christopher123]

Buried in a thread, Doc decided to pull out the old:

"they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone."

mantra that is so often thrown around by people who just don't like someone saying things that are critical of the LDS church. I say critical here, to differentiate from wrong. As I've said before, show me where I have posted anything wrong about the church and I will correct it.

So I responded with my reasons why and also included a link to a write-up by someone who also left the church which aswered this very question.

http://home.mccue.cc:10000/bob/documents/rs.why dont you leave the church alone.pdf


I just recently ran across this very issue addressed by the church.

"An inspired Joseph Smith further explained: 'Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.' (D&C 121:16-17.) Why is it, then, that the apostates will not leave the Church alone? Because they are the servants of sin and have another master whose bidding they now do."

WOW..... it all makes sense now. I (an any other exmormon who just doesn't shut up and go away quietly) am just a servant of sin.

Any guess of who this other master they are talking about whose bidding I am now doing?


Chris <><

 

[A New Dawn]

Apostate is defined as someone who renounces a religious or political belief or allegiance (Encarta).

So, is it always the person who is leaving an organization the apostate?

I was called an apostate by someone who goes to the CoC because I stopped attending the CoC and attend the more conservative Restoration Branches. BUT, I was not the one who renounced my beliefs. It is the church, itself, who changed and renounced those beliefs. So, am I apostate, or is the church?

I am facing my church being in apostasy very soon, and the only vestige of true restorationism left is present only in the Restoration Branches, but we don't consider ourselves apostate (as we have not changed our beliefs).

Just thought I'd throw out that question. Toss........

 

[christopher123]

I guess it is sort of like that old joke, in this case, the apostate is whoever doesn't believe like me. Or like they say, history is written by the winner.

Even the FLDS (a major polyg group) considers the LDS church apostate.

I don't think it was until after Joseph Fielding Smith that the retoric toward the RLDS church by the LDS church began to die down. I remember reading some of his stuff (I would guess late 60's early 70's), where he almost refused to acknowledge the existance of the RLDS church. Emma Smith's reputation has also swung during my lifetime. I don't think her and BY saw eye to eye.

But what do I know, I just found out that I am a servant of sin. Time to go do my master's bidding.

Chris <><

 

[Cassiopeia]

It was my common experience before I stopped attending the LDS church that when I differed with doctrinal issues or leaders that I was cautioned that I was one step closer to apostasy.

Since my departure I have come to see that people need to put everyone in a box and tie it up with a bow so they don't have to think about why or what they do.

I honestly believe people are in fear of those who leave, that we might say something they might relate to. I think the only way to help them see that we are not out to get them is the manner in which we speak about leaving.

 

[christopher123]

I think the only way to help them see that we are not out to get them is the manner in which we speak about leaving.

I don't believe they want speaking at all. The reason you ask?

That is because the great learned mormon apologist will say we are just making fools of ourselves, and that they (that is good members of the church) are intellectually (and socially) above all that kind of talk.



Chris <><

 

[Cassiopeia]

I don't believe they want speaking at all. The reason you ask?

That is because the great learned mormon apologist will say we are just making fools of ourselves, and that they (that is good members of the church) are intellectually (and socially) above all that kind of talk.

I just wish I was as smart as they.


Chris <><

Then they are making a grave mistake. For something can be learnt from those who leave. I am not advocating Chris that all LDS must leave their faith. I am sure you figured that out by now...but I think that should they chose to stay it should be with their eyes open. Or one day ...they might hear something that shakes them so badly that they are hurt beyond any hope of having any faith in anything. Kinda like me. Though I am recovering.

I wouldn't take it personally when someone thinks they are more clever than you are...that is just insecurity speaking.

Casi

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

christopher123,

I think you've got some good reasons there.

I'd say that it's like being trained in one company, and then leaving and joining another company. Company "A" doesn't like the fact that you can use your skills for Company "B".

Too dang bad.

 

[Rescued One]

This:

"An inspired Joseph Smith further explained: 'Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.' (D&C 121:16-17.) Why is it, then, that the apostates will not leave the Church alone? Because they are the servants of sin and have another master whose bidding they now do."

explains a lot of the animosity toward ex-LDS. But we knew what they were thinking without even seeing the quote. How many times did we hear it paraphrased while we were still in their church?

 

[fatboys]

I think some people may be fearful, but I think many LDS hate to see someone leave because of what they believe the person will be missing out on. For me it is hard to see why you can not see or feel the same way I do about the church. I am in no way some great theologian or scholar. I am not a spiritual giant. I am not a scriptorian. I am a man who asked God and sincerely got an answer. And it frustrates me to see others that don't seem to care, or do not get the same answer. I was not looking to believe in this church, but I believe God wanted me to know one way or the other. Because of this, God has continued to open my eyes, both in understanding and spirituality. What I do wish is that I could understand the true reasons for leaving, and not some watered down version that was created after the fact. Not that this is the case for all, but for many.

 

[Rescued One]

I think some people may be fearful, but I think many LDS hate to see someone leave because of what they believe the person will be missing out on. For me it is hard to see why you can not see or feel the same way I do about the church. I am in no way some great theologian or scholar. I am not a spiritual giant. I am not a scriptorian. I am a man who asked God and sincerely got an answer. And it frustrates me to see others that don't seem to care, or do not get the same answer. I was not looking to believe in this church, but I believe God wanted me to know one way or the other. Because of this, God has continued to open my eyes, both in understanding and spirituality. What I do wish is that I could understand the true reasons for leaving, and not some watered down version that was created after the fact. Not that this is the case for all, but for many.

The Triune God of the Bible continues to open my heart and mind to His truth. Mormonism contradicts itself and is ever-changing. I left because I knew I had to trust God more than an LDS prophet.

 

[fatboys]

This:



explains a lot of the animosity toward ex-LDS. But we knew what they were thinking without even seeing the quote. How many times did we hear it paraphrased while we were still in their church?

If you are fighting against the church, the animosity was there before. The Lord just discribes what these people are. If this hurts your feelings, then perhaps you should rethink what you are doing.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

If you are fighting against the church, the animosity was there before. The Lord just discribes what these people are. If this hurts your feelings, then perhaps you should rethink what you are doing.

No, it wasn't the Lord speaking, fatboys, but it was Joseph Smith. If I were going to find a way to keep people in fear of rebelling against me, I'd come up with a convenient revelation like that too.

 

[Swart]

I was called an apostate by someone who goes to the CoC because I stopped attending the CoC and attend the more conservative Restoration Branches. BUT, I was not the one who renounced my beliefs. It is the church, itself, who changed and renounced those beliefs. So, am I apostate, or is the church?

I wonder which of the two would be more painful.

It would be interesting to know more of what is really hapenning in the CoC and about the restoration branches you speak of. I try to put myself in your position, I imagine it would be close to unbearable without some reference frame.

 

[christopher123]

I think some people may be fearful, but I think many LDS hate to see someone leave because of what they believe the person will be missing out on.

No, it is because they are taught that they are intellectually and socially above us exmormons. Plain and simple.


Chris <><

 

[christopher123]

I wonder which of the two would be more painful.

It would be interesting to know more of what is really hapenning in the CoC and about the restoration branches you speak of. I try to put myself in your position, I imagine it would be close to unbearable without some reference frame.

I would think that those who became the fundamentalist LDS churches in the early 1900's felt the same way. I could see them thinking they were hung out to dry by the changes and proclamations coming from LDS leadership which was contrary to their prior teachings and lifestyle.

Chris <><

 

[A New Dawn]

I wonder which of the two would be more painful.

It would be interesting to know more of what is really hapenning in the CoC and about the restoration branches you speak of. I try to put myself in your position, I imagine it would be close to unbearable without some reference frame.

I guess I was in a talkative mood over the weekend regarding this issue, and discussed a lot about it in this thread. http://www.christianforums.com/t1670864-the-unsuccessful-attempts-to-disprove-mormonism.html Post 6 is my first post, and there are several more up through page 6, I believe.

 

[Swart]

But what do I know, I just found out that I am a servant of sin. Time to go do my master's bidding.

*LOL*

A little experience goes a long way. I know from personal experience that if you have never had a problem with one thing or another, it is easy to be dismissive of someone who has. True empathy comes from shared suffering.

It is easy for a TBM to wonder how someone who has studied extensively and then left the church or is waivering in their faith could possibly come to any conclusion other than their own.

Many COTMC also need to realise that there are plenty of believing LDS that had read exactly the same material and come to different conclusions for different reasons. It is not simply a matter of "If you new what I knew then you'd leave the church".

They way I look at things is from the distant view. Take this hypothetical example:

1) Assume a particular belief system is the correct belief system.
2) Assume that two followers of this belief system have doubts.
3) Person A continues to follow the tenets of the belief system, despite severe reservations, to the point of disbelieving major parts of the belief system.
4) Person B after a period of study comes to the conclusion the belief system is incorrect and after careful consideration, leaves the belief system despite the pain and heartache they endure.

Which of the two would be most accountable before God for their actions?

 

[christopher123]

Many COTMC ......

COTMC?


Church Of The Mighty Curelom?
Codependant Old Tired Missionary Companions?
Christians Other Than MaCally Caulkin?




Chris <><

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Swart,

I like your example. The only thing I'd add is that for many of us "B" types, we were once "A" types who, for one reason or another, changed over to "B".

 

[A New Dawn]

COTMC?


Church Of The Mighty Curelom?
Codependant Old Tired Missionary Companions?
Christians Other Than MaCally Caulkin?


Chris <><

critics of the mormon church