Apostasy?

[ST:DS9]

So all you people who think that baptism is a requirment tell me something. Where do you think Moses, David, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and all the OT prophets and leaders are going to be if baptism is a commandment? The answer is simple. Baptism is symbolic of your old self dying and your new self emmerging from the water. It is also symbolic of the ressurection. True baptism comes from within. None of the OT prophets were baptized by immmersion in water to my knowledge and yet do you think they are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God?

Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

[Fit4Christ]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John 3:1-5
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "baptism" is to be baptized of the Spirit. Baptism of water is only a confirmation of one's belief, but is not a requirement. If you continue reading John Chapter 3, you'll see it written 4 times that if one believes in Christ, they will be saved.

John 3:14-15
"14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

John 3:16
"16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:18
"18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 3:36
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Doesn't say anything about baptism. FYI, I do believe being baptized is important. I just don't believe it's a requirement to get into heaven.

Those aren't the only two, those are the greatest two.

Agreed. However, without first believing, the "greatest two" and any others, are meaningless to the non-believer.

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What does this mean to you? To me, this sums up anything and everything that is ever preached from hereon out by Jesus or any of the Apostles. God didn't want a bunch of legalistic laws to keep His children from coming to Him. He wanted to make it easy. And it is. As easy as ABC.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment is to love Him. Then He tells us that if we love Him, we must keep all His commandments. Baptism is one of His commandments.

In context, what was it that Jesus was commanding? All it said was to have faith in Him, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they (the Apostles) will be able to perform miracles as Jesus had done if they ask in Jesus' name. I see nowhere in that Scripture passage that His "commandments" is relating to baptism.

 

[Fit4Christ]

So all you people who think that baptism is a requirment tell me something. Where do you think Moses, David, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and all the OT prophets and leaders are going to be if baptism is a commandment? The answer is simple. Baptism is symbolic of your old self dying and your new self emmerging from the water. It is also symbolic of the ressurection. True baptism comes from within. None of the OT prophets were baptized by immmersion in water to my knowledge and yet do you think they are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God?

Well said, ZealouS!

 

[Fit4Christ]

Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.

Which just goes to show that there's one more piece of your doctrine that cannot be Biblically supported.

 

[ST:DS9]

Which just goes to show that there's one more piece of your doctrine that cannot be Biblically supported.

Ya, I know.

 

[ZealouS]

Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.

The law of Moses mentions no such thing as baptism. We know that that law has not changed because of how the Jews have preserved the original text for a very long time. Nothing was left out of the law. Please dont use that LDS argument about the temple wash basin. It was for the priests to wash their hands and feet with before they could inter into the temple/tabernacle/holiest of holies.

 

[neocon]

I would like to know what everyones views are on the apostasy.
Do you belive there has been, will be, or never will be an apostasy and a restoration of the Church and why?

Thanks ahead of time!

Christ said His Church would prevail against the very Gates of Hell. There has never been a need for any of the various loons be they a Joe Smith or a David Koresh who have deluded themselves otherwise.

 

[ST:DS9]

The law of Moses mentions no such thing as baptism. We know that that law has not changed because of how the Jews have preserved the original text for a very long time. Nothing was left out of the law. Please dont use that LDS argument about the temple wash basin. It was for the priests to wash their hands and feet with before they could inter into the temple/tabernacle/holiest of holies.

But when I did a search on google, I find non-lds sites talking about Baptism before Christ.

But I know that the OT doesn't talk about Baptism. I was just answering his question. In modern day revelation we learned that even Adam was baptized.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

But when I did a search on google, I find non-lds sites talking about Baptism before Christ.

But I know that the OT doesn't talk about Baptism. I was just answering his question. In modern day revelation we learned that even Adam was baptized.

We know that there was baptism before Christ (why do you think they called John the "baptist"?).

I personally believe we should be literally baptised, but that those who weren't who would have given the chance are baptised by desire.

 

[ZealouS]

You should be baptized but my point was that there have been many good people who have died that are going to be saved by grace through their faith.

 

[Fit4Christ]

Ya, I know.

Then why believe in it???

 

[ST:DS9]

Then why believe in it???

You can find my answer to that with in the "Ignored Evidence of the Book of Mormon" thread. It is in the last few pages and it is pertaining to gaining a witness from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fit4Christ]

The is a huge difference in what we are required to do for our salvation and what we should do as child of God. God makes it very clear in the Bible that those who believe that His Son died for thier sins and confess that Christ is their Lord and Saviour shall have ever lasting life, by the gift of His grace and mercy. After receiving that gift, then yes, there are things (baptism, good works, etc.) that we should do, but IMO, God would not deny those that don't.

 

[A New Dawn]

John 3:1-5
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "baptism" is to be baptized of the Spirit. Baptism of water is only a confirmation of one's belief, but is not a requirement.

That is not what it says. It says, Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

If you continue reading John Chapter 3, you'll see it written 4 times that if one believes in Christ, they will be saved.
Doesn't say anything about baptism. FYI, I do believe being baptized is important. I just don't believe it's a requirement to get into heaven.

So saying it 4 times makes it 4 times as important?

Your statement is a strawman argument. The statement about believing in Christ in no way invalidates the commandment about baptism.

Agreed. However, without first believing, the "greatest two" and any others, are meaningless to the non-believer.

Sorry, but that is like a Duh! statement. Or maybe it all hinges on love. We don't even have to believe. We can just love God and others and be saved because they are the two greatest commandments?

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What does this mean to you? To me, this sums up anything and everything that is ever preached from hereon out by Jesus or any of the Apostles. God didn't want a bunch of legalistic laws to keep His children from coming to Him. He wanted to make it easy. And it is. As easy as ABC.

In context, what was it that Jesus was commanding? All it said was to have faith in Him, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they (the Apostles) will be able to perform miracles as Jesus had done if they ask in Jesus' name. I see nowhere in that Scripture passage that His "commandments" is relating to baptism.[/QUOTE]

What verse 40 above means to me is that all the laws given in the past had love at the basis of them. That God gave these laws for man because He loved us.

In context? Which context?

You provided contexts that said to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and be saved, I provided contexts that said belief in Jesus as the Son of God coupled with baptism is the way to be saved.

Christ, himself, was baptized, Christ baptized his followers. Christ commanded us to be baptized. I'll go with that.

 

[Fit4Christ]

You can find my answer to that with in the "Ignored Evidence of the Book of Mormon" thread. It is in the last few pages and it is pertaining to gaining a witness from the Holy Spirit.

I read it. Don't understand it. You want to believe everything by the Holy Spirit, by a "feeling", but do not want to confirm your beliefs by the Bible (or the bom, as you also stated).

Because I rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm it to me. No wisdom, knowledge, or evidence of man will ever convine me that Jesus is the Messiah the Savior, that the Bible is the Word of God, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. The only thing that has convined me that these things are true is through the Holy Spirit which testified it to me. Fruits of the Holy Spirit are feelings. It is only through the Holy Spirit can one gain faith.

If one were to go on feelings alone, that person can and will be deceived. God gave us His word to confirm these "feelings" as you call them. At the same time, one does not need to rely on the factual proof of the Bible, either. Rather, the two go hand in hand. Reading the Bible for a non-believer is meaningless, unless the Holy Spirit is leading that person to Christ.

If you rely on your Holy Spirit confirmation alone, with no other resource or evidence to confirm it, how do you know it's true? Because your HS spirit told you so?

Why read the Bible, the BoM, or any of your other "scripture" if you are not going to believe it anyway?

 

[Fit4Christ]

That is not what it says. It says, Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

It does not say baptized by water, either. "Except a man be born of water " is referring to being physically born. Continuing on in the passage it says in verse 6 :"6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." IOW, we are physically born, then we are spiritually "born again".

So saying it 4 times makes it 4 times as important?

Yes, for those of you who just don't get it. Why would Jesus continually preach about love, forgiveness, and believing in Him as the way to His Father's Kingdom if such topics were not important to Him?

Your statement is a strawman argument. The statement about believing in Christ in no way invalidates the commandment about baptism.

Why do you try to make it more complicated than it is? Baptism is flat out NOT a requirement for entrance into God's kingdom. For proof, Jesus himself told the thief next to him on the cross that he would be saved. The thief hadn't been baptised. He only believed in Jesus. That's how simple it is.

Sorry, but that is like a Duh! statement. Or maybe it all hinges on love. We don't even have to believe. We can just love God and others and be saved because they are the two greatest commandments?

Nope. You just have to believe. The rest will follow.

In context, what was it that Jesus was commanding? All it said was to have faith in Him, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they (the Apostles) will be able to perform miracles as Jesus had done if they ask in Jesus' name. I see nowhere in that Scripture passage that His "commandments" is relating to baptism.[/QUOTE]

What verse 40 above means to me is that all the laws given in the past had love at the basis of them. That God gave these laws for man because He loved us.

Excellent. Then how does "baptism" relate to love? Believe in Christ, love God, love your neighbors. Easy.

You provided contexts that said to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and be saved, I provided contexts that said belief in Jesus as the Son of God coupled with baptism is the way to be saved.

No, you have taken Scripture out of context to mean what your belief system wants it to believe. Baptism is not a requirement.

Christ, himself, was baptized, Christ baptized his followers. Christ commanded us to be baptized. I'll go with that.

Christ did not baptise His followers with water. He baptized them with the Holy Spirit, the "Living Water". Big difference. I'll go with that.

FYI - this issue was debated a while ago here: http://www.christianforums.com/t719568