Apostasy?

[Apex]

I would like to know what everyones views are on the apostasy.
Do you belive there has been, will be, or never will be an apostasy and a restoration of the Church and why?

Thanks ahead of time!

 

[gort]

Apostasy?

I would like to know what everyones views are on the apostasy.
Do you belive there has been, will be, or never will be an apostasy and a restoration of the Church and why?

Thanks ahead of time!

Hello Apex, and welcome to paradise here at Christian forums.

Some will say there already was an apostacy. That the Truth actually went to lunch for awhile, but if you read and believe the Bible and what it really says, you'll find that people fall away from the Truth, the Word of God.

While the Bible says there will be a great apostacy, it means many will fall away. It doesnt say a complete apostacy.

The church is the body of believers in Christ. Not a brick building with a name on it.


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[Dark_Lite]

No Apostacy.

One holy Church exists--and has always existed.

And no, I'm not referring to the 20,000 different Protestant denominations.

I'm referring to the the traditional versions of Christianity. Think Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican.

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

Amen Darklite.

There is no "great apostasy" in the sense that Christ's church no longer exists on earth. He promised that he will always be with us

 

[fatboys]

Apostasy occured, was foretold by the Christ and the apostles. Christ was always with us, but his power, authority and knowledge was taken, leaving men to their own devices. Men mingled their own philosophies with scriptures, and until the restoration took place men were in the dark in many areas of truth.

 

[RufustheRed]

Apostasy occured, was foretold by the Christ and the apostles. Christ was always with us, but his power, authority and knowledge was taken, leaving men to their own devices. Men mingled their own philosophies with scriptures, and until the restoration took place men were in the dark in many areas of truth.

Biblical references, please. I am astonished that you still believe that the powers of Satan are stronger than those of God.

Sven

(I wonder where you'd be with no total apostasy, not 1st 2nd or 3rd version of Smith's 1st vison, with no tampered Bible or edifices dedicated to dead works)

 

[CrownCaster]

I would like to know what everyones views are on the apostasy.
Do you belive there has been, will be, or never will be an apostasy and a restoration of the Church and why?

Thanks ahead of time!

I believe that there are fewer and fewer true believers as time goes on but that the Church will always be present and has never not been. God said that any time two or three gathered in His name, He would be there. I am sure that there has always been at least two people on earth that believed. We see what God will do for just a few who accept Him. Think of Noah, Lot, so on. They were all God had but it was enough. He established them and protected them. The Spirit has never not been here on earth since Pentecost. I believe though that the day is coming soon when He will leave with the Church at the Rapture.

 

[usetheforce]

Biblical references, please. I am astonished that you still believe that the powers of Satan are stronger than those of God.

Sven

(I wonder where you'd be with no total apostasy, not 1st 2nd or 3rd version of Smith's 1st vison, with no tampered Bible or edifices dedicated to dead works)

The problem with your first statement is that it's non-tenable according to the Bible.
According to Christ His Church through Moses was in Apostacy at the time given His critisisms of it's leaders who had corrupted His Gospel and Law, which is exactly part of the reason why He said New Wine can't go into the Old.
In other words, He established His Church, not over the old but newly, just as He did again in these the Last Days.

There WAS a Total Apostacy of the Church for the 2 most significant reasons.
1. Authority
2. Doctrine
Sure, all Truth wasn't taken away from the earth, no LDS argues this.
It was simply ENOUGH of an Apostacy that the Church had to be Restored, just as the Church had to be both Established AND Restored in Christs time.

The Gospel has always been on the earth even from Adam in various degrees of Authority and Apostacy, and because of the Light of Christ, Holy Spirit, and mans own free agency, this ensures this.
Man can't "destroy" the Gospel, but man can certainly LOSE IT.
The Gospel was "lost" many times in history, and it has been Restored through His Annointed many times in History.
Christ bringing the Higher Law, providing His Sacrafise and showing us the way home doesn't change all mens nature immediately.
If it was to last in Spirit AND Truth, the Apostles wouldn't have been all killed off, leaving the Bishops to fend for themselves and fight each other for power, ultimately then creating the different Churches under THEIR OWN Authority's, not God and His Annointed.

To say there was no Apostacy is to ignore History for the sake of ones "feelings" with their personal relationship with Christ.
A relationship with Christ IS NOT His Eternal Truths being Authoritatively known.
Such has always come through His Annointed. And since everyone believes differently from the same Bible, it's everyones best guess as to what Truth is.
And such doesn't give Authority. They are only appealing to their own perceptions of Truth and not necessarily Truth Eternal in all or even most cases.

The Lords Annointed was always necessary to proclaim, interpret, and reveal His Word.
It didn't change when He Himself was on the earth, and it certainly wouldn't change in the Last Days, when there is much to fullfill.

That doesn't mean there isn't faithful believers, simply that believeing doesn't make you "with Him" as Mark 9 states.
You still worship Him, do Miracles in His Name, thus you are not against Him, which is why LDS don't try to inhibit you Faith, but you aren't the Church.
Of course, this is our perspective.

 

[MormonFriend]

Biblical references, please. I am astonished that you still believe that the powers of Satan are stronger than those of God.

Sven

When asking for Biblical references, keep in mind that if there was an apostasy (which there was in my pov), that the Spirit of God, which is necessary to understand Biblical references, was lost with everything else. There lies the real issue of our disagreements. Therefore, pray to God for the answer to this question. He is Faithful to answer the honest in heart.

The powers of Satan are not stronger than those of God. God, with His foreknowledge of the apostasy, created a plan to preserve His Word, expose all evil, and to restore all things in preparation for the Second Coming of His Son. That would be the Book of Mormon.

My view of evidence (not proof) of the apostasy is the divisions in Christianity. Christianity has split many many times over interpretations and definitions in the Bible. Yet the Bible mandates that there are to be no divisions, and that all who profess to be followers must be of one heart and mind. Since these major divisions, there have been noble efforts to unite, even with catholicism, as one body. But the divisions are happening faster than any effort to unite.

More critical as evidence, the things of God are understood by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit was among Christianity, they would understand the same things from the One Spirit. That obviously didn't happen.

I say "evidence" and not "proof" because one must prove all things of God for themselves through faith by petitioning God in prayer and seeking to do His will, in order to obtain all answers. That has always been God's method of operation for His children so that they are not deceived by the words of men. I am a man, therefore, do not take my word on my testimony alone, or anyone else here. If you have faith in God, use it by asking Him.

 

[Zeddicus]

My view of evidence (not proof) of the apostasy is the divisions in Christianity. Christianity has split many many times over interpretations and definitions in the Bible. Yet the Bible mandates that there are to be no divisions, and that all who profess to be followers must be of one heart and mind. Since these major divisions, there have been noble efforts to unite, even with catholicism, as one body. But the divisions are happening faster than any effort to unite.

Yet you seem to ignore the fact that even the LDS Church has fallen prey to this exact same thing, bringing about at least one major offshoot (RLDS) and more than a few minor offshoots, and all of these in just a short span of less than 200 years. Check your premises...if we must assume Christianity apostasized early on because of the presence of division over certain doctrines or who had true authority, then me must assume the same for the Mormon Church...

More critical as evidence, the things of God are understood by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit was among Christianity, they would understand the same things from the One Spirit. That obviously didn't happen.

Once again, just because people disagree over doctrine (depending on how truly essential the doctrine is), does not inherently denote the presence of the Spirit, just a lack of true understanding of Scripture.

 

[carolbob]

No Apostacy.

One holy Church exists--and has always existed.

And no, I'm not referring to the 20,000 different Protestant denominations.

I'm referring to the the traditional versions of Christianity. Think Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican.

20,000? Now, we're exaggerating a bit! More like 18,000!

 

[Wrigley]

No Apostacy.

One holy Church exists--and has always existed.

And no, I'm not referring to the 20,000 different Protestant denominations.

I'm referring to the the traditional versions of Christianity. Think Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican.

20,000 Protestant denominations? Are you using old notes. Last I've heard the figure you're supposed to use is 28,000.

As you probably know, those denominations aren't part of the Body of Christ, right?

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

The chance that the early Church was LDS is so small it is laughable . Please show some historical evidence.

 

[RufustheRed]

The problem with your first statement is that it's non-tenable according to the Bible.
According to Christ His Church through Moses was in Apostacy at the time given His critisisms of it's leaders who had corrupted His Gospel and Law, which is exactly part of the reason why He said New Wine can't go into the Old.
In other words, He established His Church, not over the old but newly, just as He did again in these the Last Days.

I agree that Jesus established His church. He did not restore it. It was not even referred to as a church system until New Testament times. The Jewish synagogue was not established until the exile in 530 BCE. How or why you chose to call this a church, I cannot fathom.
However, as you say there were times that there were GREAT apostascies, the great flood immediately comes to mind, but never was God's power or authority removed from the earth, especially since the time of Christ.

There WAS a Total Apostacy of the Church for the 2 most significant reasons.
1. Authority
2. Doctrine
Sure, all Truth wasn't taken away from the earth, no LDS argues this.

If ALL truth was not removed, then TOTAL apostacy was not possible. There were always true believers and followers of Christ, with total authority and true doctrine to act in his stead. True, there were times when the population of believers waxed and waned, but they, along with the authority and oxthodoxy of God were never eradicated.

It was simply ENOUGH of an Apostacy that th Church had to be Restored, just as the Church had to be both Established AND Restored in Christs time.

I understand your defense of this pernicious doctrine because if there was no TOTAL apostacy, there would be no need for a restoration of of it. To say that there was "simply enough" apostacy requires (1) complete church history and (2) a definition of a specific point of doctrine that the LDS church
believes removed the everlasting church from the face of the earth.

The Gospel has always been on the earth even from Adam in various degrees of Authority and Apostacy, and because of the Light of Christ, Holy Spirit, and mans own free agency, this ensures this.
Man can't "destroy" the Gospel, but man can certainly LOSE IT.

Again, I agree, to a point, man cannot destroy the Church or the Gospel contain within. It was not GIVEN to man to lose. It was made available to those who believed and had faith in Jesus Christ. If I were to ask you who was the head of your church, how would you answer? Your president or Jesus Christ?

The Gospel was "lost" many times in history, and it has been Restored through His Annointed many times in History.

Again, this would call for documentation. Why restore that which has remained pristine since Jesus Christ sent the comforter to guide us in all truth?

Christ bringing the Higher Law, providing His Sacrafise and showing us the way home doesn't change all mens nature immediately.

To bring a higher law would be to negate the sacrifice that make on the cross.

If it was to last in Spirit AND Truth, the Apostles wouldn't have been all killed off,

They weren't, i.e. John, the Revelator.

[quote...] leaving the Bishops to fend for themselves and fight each other for power, ultimately then creating the different Churches under THEIR OWN Authority's, not God and His Annointed.

That's purely speculation, at best. If your laying on of hands for authority is to which you are speaking, then you are claiming that what Joseph Smith did was more effective than what Jesus Christ did.

To say there was no Apostacy is to ignore History for the sake of ones "feelings" with their personal relationship with Christ.

I believe the opposite to be true. My feelings have nothing to do with the issue and I certainly don't have that subjective "burning bosom" that I used to hear so much about.

A relationship with Christ IS NOT His Eternal Truths being Authoritatively known.
Such has always come through His Annointed. And since everyone believes differently from the same Bible, it's everyones best guess as to what Truth is.
And such doesn't give Authority. They are only appealing to their own perceptions of Truth and not necessarily Truth Eternal in all or even most cases.

And you... do you believe differently from the same Bible. You see, I believe that the Bible CONTAINS truth, truth that can lead one to salvation, but Truth lies in the Godhead. That is why I say a total apostascy is not only imposible, but illogical. God is always here to lead us to all truth. He always has been and He always will be to the end of the ages and then we will dwell with him, IF we had faith in Jesus Christ.

The Lords Annointed was always necessary to proclaim, interpret, and reveal His Word.
It didn't change when He Himself was on the earth, and it certainly wouldn't change in the Last Days, when there is much to fullfill.

We just disagree who are the "Lord's annointed." Anyone who leads people astray and tell them that they MUST do this and that they MUST do that in order to become exalted, may be annointed, but not by God. His plan has been set since the beginning of time. I don't believe that HE will allow Satan to win victories by removing the Gospel from the earth. Jude 3 states that the Gospel was given once for all. It doesn't need to be restored if it has been given once for all.

That doesn't mean there isn't faithful believers, simply that believeing doesn't make you "with Him" as Mark 9 states.
You still worship Him, do Miracles in His Name, thus you are not against Him, which is why LDS don't try to inhibit you Faith, but you aren't the Church.
Of course, this is our perspective.

Yes, this IS your perspective, but, you see, I am part of the Church because of my belief and faith in HIM. Not your church, but Christ's Church.

Sven

 

[RufustheRed]

When asking for Biblical references, keep in mind that if there was an apostasy (which there was in my pov), that the Spirit of God, which is necessary to understand Biblical references, was lost with everything else. There lies the real issue of our disagreements. Therefore, pray to God for the answer to this question. He is Faithful to answer the honest in heart.

I did, thanks. That is why I am no longer LDS. The history the LDS Church has to discredit to merely justify its existance is mind boggling. You say that the comforter that Jesus sent to guide us in all truth, packed up and left Dodge. You are implying that only LDS can correctly understand Biblical references. You claim that Christ's Church was destroyed within mere decades of his crucifixion, but that Smith's gospel has out done the Son of God! That was part of the answer I received when I prayed. Another part of the answer was to RUN. Run as fast as you can away from this organization. It is a spiritual cancer to my soul.

The powers of Satan are not stronger than those of God. God, with His foreknowledge of the apostasy, created a plan to preserve His Word, expose all evil, and to restore all things in preparation for the Second Coming of His Son. That would be the Book of Mormon.

Presuppositional arguing. God has foreknowledge of all things, good and evil. He also knew that the holocost would happen, but he didn't allow His chosen people to be eradicated, did he? I sincerely believe that when God puts something in place, it is for his purpose. What purpose would it serve for Him to establish His church only to have it destroyed a short time after? Do you believe that the Church was placed here as a toy for Satan to play with and then crush because it wasn't fun anymore? Then later on God decided to reveal Hiimself for the purpose of creating aother toy that was indistructable? I think not.

My view of evidence (not proof) of the apostasy is the divisions in Christianity. Christianity has split many many times over interpretations and definitions in the Bible. Yet the Bible mandates that there are to be no divisions, and that all who profess to be followers must be of one heart and mind. Since these major divisions, there have been noble efforts to unite, even with catholicism, as one body. But the divisions are happening faster than any effort to unite.

Then Mormondom is apostate, also.

More critical as evidence, the things of God are understood by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit was among Christianity, they would understand the same things from the One Spirit. That obviously didn't happen.

Like the Community of Christ, Temple Lot Church, Fundamentalist LDS Church, the Strangeites, etc.?

I say "evidence" and not "proof" because one must prove all things of God for themselves through faith by petitioning God in prayer and seeking to do His will, in order to obtain all answers. That has always been God's method of operation for His children so that they are not deceived by the words of men. I am a man, therefore, do not take my word on my testimony alone, or anyone else here. If you have faith in God, use it by asking Him.

Like I said, I did ask God. I left a long time ago. I won't take any person's word for it. I did once and was deceived. I won't touch the hot stove again. In fact, I'll try to protect people from touching the hot stove, by telling them that they'll get burned (Ezekiel 33).

 

[Ratiocination]

I think there is apostacy today because if we take a simple instruction from Christ like "you must not lift up sword against another man" and then join the army to protect your nation, then you are an apostate!

 

[RufustheRed]

I think there is apostacy today because if we take a simple instruction from Christ like "you must not lift up sword against another man" and then join the army to protect your nation, then you are an apostate!

That constitutes an apostacy? What do you do with Romans 13:1-6?

Romans (NIV) 1:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

I'm a retired, disabled Army veteran and I honestly don't believe that God believes that I am an apostate because of it. Futhermore, if there were not "wars and rumors of wars," then Jesus Christ, himself would be considered a false prophet.

Sorry, Charlie. I don't believe in war and knew of very few people in the military who did or do. I would much rather be civilized enough to negotiate out national differences, but not all peoples believe that way.

Do you believe that police officers are apostates, also?

Sven (MSG, USA, Ret.)

 

[Ratiocination]

I think there is apostacy today because if we take a simple instruction from Christ like "you must not lift up sword against another man" and then join the army to protect your nation, then you are an apostate!

That constitutes an apostasy? What do you do with Romans 13:1-6?

Romans (NIV) 1:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

I'm a retired, disabled Army veteran and I honestly don't believe that God believes that I am an apostate because of it. Futhermore, if there were not "wars and rumors of wars," then Jesus Christ, himself would be considered a false prophet.

Sorry, Charlie. I don't believe in war and knew of very few people in the military who did or do. I would much rather be civilized enough to negotiate out national differences, but not all peoples believe that way.

Do you believe that police officers are apostates, also?

Sven (MSG, USA, Ret.)

Do you think that certain verses negate or nullify other verses?

Romans 13:1-6 is talking about rebelling against authority, not fighting for it.

 

[fatboys]

The chance that the early Church was LDS is so small it is laughable . Please show some historical evidence.

FB: Do you feel that the Jewish religion was in apostasy at the time of Christ?

 

[RufustheRed]

Do you think that certain verses negate or nullify other verses?

Romans 13:1-6 is talking about rebelling against authority, not fighting for it.

You didn't answer if you believed that police officers were apostate. Also, please explain to me how nations can remain in authority without at least the ability to defend one's self?