Apology for the Christmas Tree

prodromos

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I wonder if snowmen are considered idols by some.

Leviticus 26:1
You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar
Especially if you make offerings to it, such as lumps of charcoal and a carrot :swoon:
 
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Hazelelponi

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The post is more made for folks who are crusading against the holiday and the trees based on a spurious study of history, superficial reasons, bad theology, and maybe even superstition thrown in. Not seeing or feeling the need for Christmas because you are born and raised in a non-Christian country, or outside the west is a completely different story... unless of course you are joining in the forementioned fundamentalist jihad.

No fundamentalist jihad here! Haha haha...

How's your holiday season so far?
 
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Hazelelponi

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I wonder if snowmen are considered idols by some.

Leviticus 26:1
You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar

Actually - some might.

I know the issue of idolatry is biblically huge - and I run more unclear as to how that translates to our modern world.

At heart I'm an artist, and there's much I'd like to do but I have this block - like a nagging feeling that can't be shaken - that there's some line that can never ever be crossed and I have concern about it because to me idolatry and prohibition against creating images is a "less clear' area theologically - at least to me.

My heart leans closer to the teachings of the puritans in this area than those who our modern world would see as having a more reasonable stance.

But of course, I'm not sure if my heart is correct and I would love to hear some really really good expository preaching on this topic - but that seems far more difficult to find than the anything goes mentality.

I think it's a really important topic, the Bible treats it so.

It's too easy to brush off as a nothing thing in the modern era by saying that idiots back in the day used to actually worship inanimate objects - something no one in this age is ever going to do so the whole concept of idolatry is ignored.

But the Bible focuses on it too much for us to ever dismiss idolatry in total - no part of Scripture is outdated - all of it applies.

Key is to figure out what idolatry really is in our era and how our love of God should appropriately shine in all of the things we do, and what steps should we take to avoid falling into some sin or affront to God.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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The date in the Gospels that deals with the birth of Jesus is the day Mary conceived Him. That would have been 9 months before He was born in a manger. That is when God enters a name into the book of life.
The death of those children was a prophecy from Jer:31 being fulfilled. How many people even know that part about the Bible? Very, very few as everybody is gossiping about how sinful Christmas is in the Bible:
Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:
 
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sparow

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The date in the Gospels that deals with the birth of Jesus is the day Mary conceived Him. That would have been 9 months before He was born in a manger. That is when God enters a name into the book of life.
The death of those children was a prophecy from Jer:31 being fulfilled. How many people even know that part about the Bible? Very, very few as everybody is gossiping about how sinful Christmas is in the Bible:
Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:
Regardless of whether Paul was right or wrong, he was talking to new recruits, in the context of their knowledge of the Law. Christmas is some thing different. Some have said it previously existed as a pagan festival by a different name, but all that is irrelevant; the Israelites never celebrated birthdays, Pagans may have done; Israelites did celebrate deaths; so we have the Passover, in the OT it looked forward to the death of Christ, now we look back to that death and honour it with bunny rabbits, Easter eggs and hot cross bun. We do not do what He has asked first and second we do what He has not asked. I do not expect God to be pleased about it.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Christmas would be about when Jesus was conceived as that is when God enters a name in the Book of Life. That is why I tend to avoid topics the Bible doesn't cover. I would rather spend time reading the 24 passage that hold the term 'day of the lords' as they have some educational value about the Bible.
Pagan feast? Really? Why is it not part of this concept?
Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:

Why not debate Acts:10 where God made all gentile food clean for the 12 Tribes, most OT only people reject that concept with no basis other than they reject the whole NT. The Bible is not in error, they are. That won't be fixed anytime soon.
 
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Genenco

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Why not debate Acts:10 where God made all gentile food clean for the 12 Tribes, most OT only people reject that concept with no basis other than they reject the whole NT. The Bible is not in error, they are. That won't be fixed anytime soon.
However, Acts 10 is where God told peter that "Do not call unclean (gentiles) which I call clean" he then is sent to Cornelius to baptize.

HOWEVER, Jesus did say "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man `unclean. ' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander"

Matthew 15: 17-19
 
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Wayne Gabler

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However, Acts 10 is where God told peter that "Do not call unclean (gentiles) which I call clean" he then is sent to Cornelius to baptize.

HOWEVER, Jesus did say "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man `unclean. ' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander"

Matthew 15: 17-19
Without trying to put your quote down, it does show why I tend to use the KJV. Sometimes small changes that help or hinder the meaning.
Same meaning in this reference:
M't:15:11:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
 
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Genenco

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Without trying to put your quote down, it does show why I tend to use the KJV. Sometimes small changes that help or hinder the meaning.
Same meaning in this reference:
M't:15:11:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
They're the same so I see no reason for rancor.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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They're the same so I see no reason for rancor.
I was talking about the small changes between your reference and my Bible. If it was big, I would have posted my reference.
Should I explain what, 'Without trying to put your quote down.' means?

Just so you can see the small changes for yourself:
M't:15:16-18:
And Jesus said,
Are ye also yet without understanding?
Do not ye yet understand,
that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly,
and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.

17 Do you not yet understand that owhatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But pthose things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.


Are you overly sensitive, I said nothing to insult you, or the meaning in the verses you referenced?
 
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sparow

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Christmas would be about when Jesus was conceived as that is when God enters a name in the Book of Life. That is why I tend to avoid topics the Bible doesn't cover. I would rather spend time reading the 24 passage that hold the term 'day of the lords' as they have some educational value about the Bible.
Pagan feast? Really? Why is it not part of this concept?
Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:

Why not debate Acts:10 where God made all gentile food clean for the 12 Tribes, most OT only people reject that concept with no basis other than they reject the whole NT. The Bible is not in error, they are. That won't be fixed anytime soon.

You have demonstrated your intractability; I also, there is little point debating false doctrine, but I might defend myself against false accusation.

I do not know any OT only People, (unless you are referring to Judaism), I do not believe they exist. I find many NT people who reject the OT, they say that was given to the Jews; I have heard one TV preacher say, "Because the Law is abrogated sin no longer exists."

Presuming to change the Law is a identifier for the Beast and the false prophet. If God's Law could be changed, not only would God look a fool but He would be unreliable; there certainly would be no need for the great and terrible day of the Lord.

My position is the OT is the covenant; the NT is the first half of it's confirmation or in other words, the first half of the completion of the contract. Remember the Gospel that John and Jesus preached, "repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand", if the Law was abrogated there would be no reason to repent.

You think the Bible is in error but the error is in the interpretation and teaching of men.
 
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Genenco

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I was talking about the small changes between your reference and my Bible. If it was big, I would have posted my reference.
Should I explain what, 'Without trying to put your quote down.' means?

Just so you can see the small changes for yourself:
M't:15:16-18:
And Jesus said,
Are ye also yet without understanding?
Do not ye yet understand,
that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly,
and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.

17 Do you not yet understand that owhatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But pthose things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.


Are you overly sensitive, I said nothing to insult you, or the meaning in the verses you referenced?
I responded we were the same, but you had to put your tag on it.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Presuming to change the Law is a identifier for the Beast and the false prophet. If God's Law could be changed, not only would God look a fool but He would be unreliable; there certainly would be no need for the great and terrible day of the Lord.


You think the Bible is in error but the error is in the interpretation and teaching of men.
I've never said the 1611KJV has any errors. Ther is lots of doctrine that is promoted that doesn't hold up when the berses are examined. How many people say 2Thess:2 promotes two prophecies is holding back the return. The false version has the holy Spirit being removed from the world, or something close to that.
Many people sat the ones that appear at the GWT event are then tossed into the fiery lake when Re:7, Hebrews:12 and Isa:65 show they end being as saved as the Church and the 12 Tribes are. Some people claim the 2/3 and 1/3 are about the 12 Tribes rather than the Gentile Church. That would have God killing 2/3 of all members of the 12 Tribes. The Bible promotes the 144,000 are joined by the ones referenced in Eze:37. (claiming it is a spiritual awakening and nothing more) Lots of YouTube Rabbis promote Russia and Iran are associated with God, rather than the 200M angelic horsemen are who Gog is.
The list is a lot longer than these few points, yet you want them to remain as 'sound doctrine' so you don't have to dael with people that promote something else that you have no reasonable reply to.

God can change laws, Adam lived to be 930 years old because the Re:21 set of Laws was in place as that is the law the sons of God in Ge:6 were under. The men that appear in Re:21 are placed under those same laws just so God can call them sons.
I doubt your understanding of that part of Re:21 is the same as mine, which begs the question, are any men ever made so they never die??


Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

Job:1:6:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them.
 
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sparow

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I've never said the 1611KJV has any errors. Ther is lots of doctrine that is promoted that doesn't hold up when the berses are examined. How many people say 2Thess:2 promotes two prophecies is holding back the return. The false version has the holy Spirit being removed from the world, or something close to that.
Many people sat the ones that appear at the GWT event are then tossed into the fiery lake when Re:7, Hebrews:12 and Isa:65 show they end being as saved as the Church and the 12 Tribes are. Some people claim the 2/3 and 1/3 are about the 12 Tribes rather than the Gentile Church. That would have God killing 2/3 of all members of the 12 Tribes. The Bible promotes the 144,000 are joined by the ones referenced in Eze:37. (claiming it is a spiritual awakening and nothing more) Lots of YouTube Rabbis promote Russia and Iran are associated with God, rather than the 200M angelic horsemen are who Gog is.
The list is a lot longer than these few points, yet you want them to remain as 'sound doctrine' so you don't have to dael with people that promote something else that you have no reasonable reply to.

God can change laws, Adam lived to be 930 years old because the Re:21 set of Laws was in place as that is the law the sons of God in Ge:6 were under. The men that appear in Re:21 are placed under those same laws just so God can call them sons.
I doubt your understanding of that part of Re:21 is the same as mine, which begs the question, are any men ever made so they never die??


Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

Job:1:6:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
and Satan came also among them.


God cannot change His laws, his identity depends on His law. His Law is the foundation of the universe; in particular the Kingdom of God.


I am a simple and isolated person who went to Sunday School when I was eight, at fifty I read the Gospels four times and Revelation five times. Now in my old age I depend on a defective memory.


I am at loss as to what you are talking about or why you are talking about; I have to assume that you have misunderstood what I have said.


I believe that translations are always defective, but can still serve a purpose; if they were not defective, it would not matter, people would still read different meaning into it. Doctrines of men in place of what God has given are always deadly.


I have never heard of two prophesies holding back the return of Christ. An algorithm controlled by God determines when things happen; there are variables such as, as individuals do we go with God or do we go against Him, and The False Prophet's effectiveness will be variable according to the gullibility of the deceived. The fine detail is not know until it happens.


In the KJV summary for 2 Thess 2. the day of Christ is preceded by a great apostasy.


Usually false doctrine also called doctrines of men usually invokes argument where both sides are wrong.

God's Law preceded creation; it was written on stone 2000 years later, as an abstract.


Men are not made to never die the first death, they are not made to die the second death either; men are able to be resurrected, presumably indefinitely. Eternal life requires men be transformed, the second death requires a different transformation; seemingly Gog becomes a plague of insects.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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God cannot change His laws, his identity depends on His law. His Law is the foundation of the universe; in particular the Kingdom of God.




I have never heard of two prophesies holding back the return of Christ. An algorithm controlled by God determines when things happen; there are variables such as, as individuals do we go with God or do we go against Him, and The False Prophet's effectiveness will be variable according to the gullibility of the deceived. The fine detail is not know until it happens.


In the KJV summary for 2 Thess 2. the day of Christ is preceded by a great apostasy.


Men are not made to never die the first death, they are not made to die the second death either; men are able to be resurrected, presumably indefinitely. Eternal life requires men be transformed, the second death requires a different transformation; seemingly Gog becomes a plague of insects.
What is the law the people are under in the 1,000 years and in the new earth era that follows? (Spoiler, Is it the Re:21 set)

That is the 2nd prophecy. The two witnesses are 4 days into their 1260-day ministry when the 5th trump sounds. Satan cannot sit on any throne until they are dead. Satan and the Beast have control of Jerusalem and then on the day the two witnesses are resurrected the Beast is sent to the lake and Satan is in chains as described at the start of Re:20. That is followed by the resurrection of the ones who will join the living. That day is day1 of that 1,000-year reign.

There is one resurrection only, that is the 2nd birth. Nobody who has eaten from the tree of life in Eze:47 (Re:20:4 list) or in Re:21 (Re:20:5) ever die because nobody breaks any of the laws that were in place.

Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

De:34:7:
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died:
his eye was not dim,
nor his natural force abated.

1Co:15:22:
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge:5:5:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years:
and he died.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

Heb:9:27:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:

The first prophecy (2Thess:2) is about false Christians spreading false doctrine in their vain attempt to destroy what the Bible actually promotes.
1Tm:1:10:
For whoremongers,
for them that defile themselves with mankind,
for menstealers,
for liars,
for perjured persons,
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
2Tm:4:3:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Apologies for my wandering ways.
Dec:25 would have more validity if it was a celebration about Mary conceiving Him. That is the time God enters a name into the book of life, based on John and Jesus being 'aware' while they were still in the womb. The manger birth sounds more like Mid-Sept as that is the harvest time and Rome would be collecting taxes and numbering people at that time.
December is the rainy season, bad time to be travelling by camel IMO.
 
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prodromos

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Apologies for my wandering ways.
Dec:25 would have more validity if it was a celebration about Mary conceiving Him. That is the time God enters a name into the book of life, based on John and Jesus being 'aware' while they were still in the womb. The manger birth sounds more like Mid-Sept as that is the harvest time and Rome would be collecting taxes and numbering people at that time.
December is the rainy season, bad time to be travelling by camel IMO.
March 25 is when the Church celebrates Christ's conception in Mary's womb, and the feast day for His nativity was set 9 months later. There are similar feast days for the conception and birth of John the Baptist and of Mary. Both pairs of feast days are 9 monthes apart.
 
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