apographa

[neon_knights]

Paul himself prayed for the dead.

"May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well."

 

[Jerushabelle]

Praying for the dead and necromancy have nothing in common.

To pray for God to have mercy on the souls of the departed, and to call up the dead to commune with them arent even in the same ballpark.

Let us not forget the lesson of Saul and Samuel however. God does not take kindly to our calling up the dead. It is forbidden. Praying for the dead is not the same as calling up the dead.

 

[OnlyHis]

Paul himself prayed for the dead.

"May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well."

That doesn't prove he prayed for Onesiphorus, he was just saying May the Lord grant mercy he doesn't say I pray for Onesiphorus. I may be wrong but it just doesn't seem that way to me

 

[Incariol]

I'm not aware of that. Is there any proof or documentation of that,

Yes,

NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Includes the books of the Maccabees in the Old Testament.

why would the christians be praying for the dead??

2 Maccabees 12:38-46

"
38So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.
39And the day following Judas cam with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40And they found under the coats o the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth the Jews:
41Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44(For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

 

[Jerushabelle]

There are many books in the apographa that teach praying to the dead, purgatory, indulgences, ect. And to my knowledge Jesus or the apostles never quoted from the apographa.

Praying for the dead not to the dead. No purgatory. No indulgences. Sorry.

 

[OnlyHis]

Yes,

NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Includes the books of the Maccabees in the Old Testament.




2 Maccabees 12:38-46

"
38So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.
39And the day following Judas cam with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40And they found under the coats o the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth the Jews:
41Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44(For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

Other than the apographa??

 

[Incariol]

Other than the apographa??

1. It is spelled "apocrypha".

2. Why would I find evidence outside of it? The majority of Christians consider the so-called apocryphal books to be Scriptural. You asked "why would the christians be praying for the dead" and I answered using their Scriptural support.

 

[OnlyHis]

Praying for the dead not to the dead. No purgatory. No indulgences. Sorry.

2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.

What in your opinion that is speaking of if it isn't offering money for sins of the dead??

 

[OnlyHis]

I don't want to argue about this, I do think it should be read, but NOT considered inspired of God or to derive doctrines from.

 

[Jerushabelle]

1. Josephus rejected the apocryphal books as inspired and this reflected Jewish thought at the time of Jesus
   
   "From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets." ... "We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine..."(Flavius Josephus, Against Apion 1:8)
   ​

Josephas was a pro-Pharisee historian in Rome's pocket. The books of the Apocrypha lent credence, by way of prophecy, to Jesus' being the Messiah. In fact, since those books were translated directly from the scrolls in the Temple at Jerusalem, it made sense that Josephas spoke against them. He had an agenda. It's called cover-up.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I don't want to argue about this, I do think it should be read, but NOT considered inspired of God or to derive doctrines from.

No argument Sister. Truth is truth however. You should read the books. Pay close attention to Sirach and then read the account of Jesus in Matthew teaching the crowd to pray. I think man may have gotten a few things wrong when it comes to God's inspiration.

 

[neon_knights]

That doesn't prove he prayed for Onesiphorus, he was just saying May the Lord grant mercy he doesn't say I pray for Onesiphorus. I may be wrong but it just doesn't seem that way to me

"Lord have mercy" is a prayer.

If I say, "Lord have mercy on OnlyHis and all her family", I would have just prayed for you.

 

[OnlyHis]

No argument Sister. Truth is truth however. You should read the books. Pay close attention to Sirach and then read the account of Jesus in Matthew teaching the crowd to pray. I think man may have gotten a few things wrong when it comes to God's inspiration.

I have read these books, and I find them to be contradictory to the bible. There have been proven historical errors in these books which doesn't prove anything but I think should say something about their authenticity as God Breathed scripture. Read these articles with an open mind
The apocrypha contradicts Scripture
Errors in the Apocrypha | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Apocrypha: Inspired of God? : ChristianCourier.com
A Puritan's Mind » Apocrypha Article 4 – Select Contradictions in the Apocrypha – Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

 

[neon_knights]

Scripture Catholic - DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

 

[OnlyHis]

That is fine if we disagree Again I have studied the apographa and do not see the connection between it and the other books of the bible sorry... Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I have read these books, and I find them to be contradictory to the bible. There have been proven historical errors in these books which doesn't prove anything but I think should say something about their authenticity as God Breathed scripture. Read these articles with an open mind
The apocrypha contradicts Scripture
Errors in the Apocrypha | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Apocrypha: Inspired of God? : ChristianCourier.com
A Puritan's Mind » Apocrypha Article 4 – Select Contradictions in the Apocrypha – Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

I've already read three of them. I'll pull up the other and read it. No problem.

 

[OnlyHis]

I've already read three of them. I'll pull up the other and read it. No problem.

Thanks for reading them, it is important to accurately read the history of the church and study the Apographa and not just believe everything you hear. Here is another article if you are still interested.

A Puritan's Mind » The Apocrypha is not Scripture – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon There are links on the right side of the page

 

[OnlyHis]

Lets keep in mind that Jesus NEVER said it is written and then quoted the apocrypha.

 

[neon_knights]

But, Jesus did observe customs that were put forth in Apocryphal books. For example, Jesus celebrated the Festival of Lights (Hanukkah),which the story of is described in the books of Maccabees. Either Jesus thought the books of Maccabees to be Scripture, or he observed extra-Biblical traditions, which is another debate.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

There's something to consider:
A)The books were chosen by committee of religious leaders to decide what texts would go in and which ones stay out

B) If God 'made' the books he wanted to go in the bible be selected, he would have had to have direct influence over the men voting on them.. which is something he's NEVER done. Unless he spoke to them directly, he would have had to take over their free will and make them include what they did.

That's not even mentioning the fact many books talk about things that happened in Jesus' life that aren't in the New Testement. The more I read about the New Testement creation, the more something seems wrong and there's never and answer that doesn't leave everything up to chance or direct control of human beings which is a contradiction.

The texts were written by men that were inspired by God. The bible was canonized by men inspired by God.