apographa

[OnlyHis]

Has anyone heard about the new debate that is going on. Some people are saying that books that were in the apographa are books that should be in the bible. I personally believe they shouldn't be considering some of the things taught in them are contrary to other scripture. I do have several friends that are getting sucked into this thinking. Some people said that the way the bible was put together was a conspiracy bye the roman catholic church. Does anyone have any evidence or ideas on how I can talk to my friends about this and show to them the their are no books missing out of the bible

 

[Strider1002]

I don't know much about it, but the way I see it, God is in control, and He can see to it that the important stuff gets in the Bible, and the rest doesn't matter. We humans can't stop God from getting His message across

Is it a new debate, though? I would think that there have been people debating this for centuries...

 

[miamited]

Hi onlyhis,

Friend, it's not a new debate. It has been debated since the canon was first established. I always point to Jesus' claim that God would preserve His word. If God wanted these additional writings in there, then they would have been in there all along. I'm funny that way. I find that the God I serve and the God that I read of in the Scriptures is powerful enough to do the things that He wills to be done among the hearts and minds of men, as regards the working out of His plan.

The Scriptures even tell us that the very thoughts and ideas written about in the Scriptures didn't come from the minds of the men who wrote the words, but rather as they were led along by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit of God can cause godly men to write exactly what He wants written, then I surely have no problem whatsoever in seeing that that same God, by that same Spirit then continues, to this day, to see to it that the 'book', what we call the bible, is also, by the leading of His Holy Spirit working in the hearts and minds of the men who established the canon to deliver to us exactly what God wants delivered.

In other words and from the flip side of the coin. If God wanted the extrabiblical writings of the Apocrypha included in His book. They would be there!!!! As it is today, we have these writings available to us just as we have Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, William Shakespeare's writings, Josephus' writings and they can all be weighed for their truth against the writing that God has delivered to us and protected and preserved so that no man may have excuse.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[neon_knights]

Show me which parts of the apocryphal books contradict scriptures.

Keep in mind that the OT apocrypha, plus another 5 or so books, were in the edition that the writers of the epistles referenced. This edition is called the "Septuagint".

 

[neon_knights]

Hi onlyhis,

Friend, it's not a new debate. It has been debated since the canon was first established. I always point to Jesus' claim that God would preserve His word. If God wanted these additional writings in there, then they would have been in there all along. I'm funny that way. I find that the God I serve and the God that I read of in the Scriptures is powerful enough to do the things that He wills to be done among the hearts and minds of men, as regards the working out of His plan.

The Scriptures even tell us that the very thoughts and ideas written about in the Scriptures didn't come from the minds of the men who wrote the words, but rather as they were led along by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit of God can cause godly men to write exactly what He wants written, then I surely have no problem whatsoever in seeing that that same God, by that same Spirit then continues, to this day, to see to it that the 'book', what we call the bible, is also, by the leading of His Holy Spirit working in the hearts and minds of the men who established the canon to deliver to us exactly what God wants delivered.

In other words and from the flip side of the coin. If God wanted the extrabiblical writings of the Apocrypha included in His book. They would be there!!!! As it is today, we have these writings available to us just as we have Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, William Shakespeare's writings, Josephus' writings and they can all be weighed for their truth against the writing that God has delivered to us and protected and preserved so that no man may have excuse.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Yes, but many Christians still use the "apocryphal" texts, and consider them scripture. For example, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, the Copts, and the Ethiopians. The Ethiopians actually consider 1st Enoch to be scripture!

 

[neon_knights]

Has anyone heard about the new debate that is going on. Some people are saying that books that were in the apographa are books that should be in the bible. I personally believe they shouldn't be considering some of the things taught in them are contrary to other scripture. I do have several friends that are getting sucked into this thinking. Some people said that the way the bible was put together was a conspiracy bye the roman catholic church. Does anyone have any evidence or ideas on how I can talk to my friends about this and show to them the their are no books missing out of the bible

There are no books missing out of the Bible. The Old Testament canon has been established since before the time of Christ, although some think there were different "traditions". The one that came out of Alexandria, the Greek Septuagint translation, was used by the Early Church. Later on, in the Middle Ages, the Catholics and then the Protestants began using the Masoretic Hebrew texts, which were from around 1000 AD. At the time of Luther, the "Apocrypha" was still being printed.

 

[Inviserator]

I have read some of the Apocryphal texts, as well as some of the Gnostic texts. I find some of what is written to be spiritually truthful to me. Some of it I question and can not lend belief to until God tells me it is true. I am glad we have these extra canon texts because some books, like the gospel of Thomas I find very informative. Some teachings of Christ are present in the extra canon texts which are not in the canon texts and these extra teachings, some of them, ring strongly true with my spirit.

 

[Biker Angel]

Has anyone heard about the new debate that is going on. Some people are saying that books that were in the apographa are books that should be in the bible. I personally believe they shouldn't be considering some of the things taught in them are contrary to other scripture. I do have several friends that are getting sucked into this thinking. Some people said that the way the bible was put together was a conspiracy bye the roman catholic church. Does anyone have any evidence or ideas on how I can talk to my friends about this and show to them the their are no books missing out of the bible

I have known about and had access to some Apocrypha books since I was a kid. The debate around their authenticity tho goes back to the 1st century. The one I always liked reading was The Infancy of Christ and wondering if it really happened like that, and I was very impressed as a kid. Now days I think that it was better they left it out of the Canon......just saying.

 

[new_wine]

The additional books are not even considered scripture by the Jews themselves.

They are fine for reading but not for the ministry of the priesthood that Christ established.

That is all that needs to be said about it.

 

[whatfor]

Jude references the book of Enoch.

I do not have an opinion, just showing they were referenced by someone who wrote current scripture.

 

[neon_knights]

The apocrypha was not "left out" of the canon. Almost half, probably more, of Christians in the world consider the OT apocrypha to be Holy Scripture.

The earliest Christians used the Septuagint Greek OT, which had the Catholic apocrypha plus about five books.

 

[neon_knights]

Bump.

This is an interesting topic, I'd hate to see it pushed aside.

 

[neon_knights]

Guess nobody's interested.

 

[whatfor]

I am interested but do not know much about it.

Will be watching though.

 

[Nurbz]

There's something to consider:
A)The books were chosen by committee of religious leaders to decide what texts would go in and which ones stay out

B) If God 'made' the books he wanted to go in the bible be selected, he would have had to have direct influence over the men voting on them.. which is something he's NEVER done. Unless he spoke to them directly, he would have had to take over their free will and make them include what they did.

That's not even mentioning the fact many books talk about things that happened in Jesus' life that aren't in the New Testement. The more I read about the New Testement creation, the more something seems wrong and there's never and answer that doesn't leave everything up to chance or direct control of human beings which is a contradiction.

 

[OnlyHis]

I always kind of thought that too. But I also have to believe that God does use the bible to reveal himself to people. We are never going to know that truly went on when everyone met together to decide which books to keep in the bible. And even if some books were "left out" of the bible God can still use the books that are in the bible to save people. I'm putting my faith in Jesus to save me.I have read some of the books that are in the apographa and in the roman catholic bible. Both seem to teach different things than our bibles today unless I'm misinterpreting them. I went through a time when I was buying into the whole davinci code thing and I think a lot of that is just made up stuff by unbelievers to try to destroy christianity

 

[new_wine]

Not to mention that Revelation almost was removed from the Canon.

It was not until people begged for it to be included did it get put in.

So these other texts are not Holy. Or else God would have made sure they stayed.

It is not even worth questioning.

 

[neon_knights]

They did stay though!

More than half of Christians in the world use these books in their Bibles, they were not "left out". The writers of the Epistles used these books. Why shouldnt we?

So it is worth questioning. Let him question it.

OnlyHis, if you are truly interested, read the history of how the canon of the Bible was assembled. You will find that it isnt a "conspiracy", or any of that sort. Yes, the canon was assembled by the bishops of the Church in the first few centuries of its existence. How is that a conspiracy? The Bible did not miraculously fall out of the sky.. as some people seem to think.

Even before the canon was assembled, the early Christians used the Septuagint Greek OT, which contained the Roman Catholic apocrypha, as well as other books.

None of these books were "left out" of the Bible.

 

[OnlyHis]

They did stay though!

More than half of Christians in the world use these books in their Bibles, they were not "left out". The writers of the Epistles used these books. Why shouldnt we?

So it is worth questioning. Let him question it.

OnlyHis, if you are truly interested, read the history of how the canon of the Bible was assembled. You will find that it isnt a "conspiracy", or any of that sort. Yes, the canon was assembled by the bishops of the Church in the first few centuries of its existence. How is that a conspiracy? The Bible did not miraculously fall out of the sky.. as some people seem to think.

Even before the canon was assembled, the early Christians used the Septuagint Greek OT, which contained the Roman Catholic apocrypha, as well as other books.

None of these books were "left out" of the Bible.

What books did writers of the Epistles use?? I know that Jude talks about Enoch, but how do we know it is the book of Enoch they found?? It just concerns me because reading the apocrypha could lead you to believe that purgatory is real and that you can be justified by works. Maybe I just don't understand the context of the writings....

 

[theWaris1]

I have known about and had access to some Apocrypha books since I was a kid. The debate around their authenticity tho goes back to the 1st century. The one I always liked reading was The Infancy of Christ and wondering if it really happened like that, and I was very impressed as a kid. Now days I think that it was better they left it out of the Canon......just saying.

I read the infancy of Christ and threw the book in the garbage. The writings portrayed him as a spoiled brat with some magical powers. Like Bewtiches daughter who just discovered she had powers. The things he did to other kids did not display the righteousness that the son of God was known for.

.