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Apocrypha and the "intertestimental gap" between OT and NT

chevyontheriver

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I am quite in agreement with you concerning the nomenclature of "Catholic". I did mean Roman Catholic, but since various Roman Catholics here at CF take umbrage with that label, I tried to avoid unnecessary offense to them.
Well, is a Ukrainian Catholic worshipping in a Byzantine Rite a 'Roman' Catholic? Or a Maronite Catholic a 'Roman' Catholic? Go try to call one of them a 'Roman' Catholic. I am not responsible for what happens to you if you do. They are Catholic, they are in union with the Catholic Church, but they aren't 'Roman' at all. And they will tell you that.

Me? I am a member of the Latin Rite, so calling me Roman Catholic is no foul. But for millions of other Catholics of diverse rites it is a foul. Because it is inaccurate.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Well, is a Ukrainian Catholic worshipping in a Byzantine Rite a 'Roman' Catholic? Or a Maronite Catholic a 'Roman' Catholic? Go try to call one of them a 'Roman' Catholic. I am not responsible for what happens to you if you do. They are Catholic, they are in union with the Catholic Church, but they aren't 'Roman' at all. And they will tell you that.

Me? I am a member of the Latin Rite, so calling me Roman Catholic is no foul. But for millions of other Catholics of diverse rites it is a foul. Because it is inaccurate.

As we both know, the vast majority of Catholics, especially in the United States, are Roman Catholics and in my middling city all of the Catholic churches are Roman Catholic. I have yet to meet any member of your church who is not Roman Catholic.
 
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The Liturgist

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Rather his statement was of the form "This is exactly the scriptures that have been kept in the temple in Jerusalem - and preserved for over 300 years - with nothing added to it in all that time".

Well, maybe that’s true, but if it id, it suggests a recension happened, because 72 Jews famously translated the Septuagint and while some of the Deuterocanonicals post dated them (specifically Wisdom), others likely did not, particularly since we have found Hebrew translations amidst the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But whether or not the works were kept in the Temple, and frankly, I would be very surprised if the Temple lacked Hebrew versions of at least some of the Deuterocanonicals, and Josephus, not being a Kohen, or having access to Kohanim who served before Ananias and Caiaphas, who were both, in the course of their ignominious careers, the last legitimate and the first illegitimate High Priests, and after Judaism and Christianity split, it seems possible at that time that scriptures supportive of Christian positions including the entire Septuagint, and favoring Hebraic versions that were dissimilar to the Septuagint, because the New Testament, being written in Greek, quotes it, as well as books prominently quoted in our New Testament, like 1 Enoch, and books that are typological prophecies of Jesus Christ or that support specific Christian doctrines, like Tobit, the longer versions of Daniel and Esther, Baruch, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) and Wisdom, and even the Maccabees and Judith, which were matters of Jewish pride (there is no rational reason other than suppressing Christological references and Christian doctrine for deleting the Books of the Maccabees, because they document the establishment of Chanukah, which, without them, is the only major Jewish holiday whose history is not established in canonical Jewish scripture).

And if this happened, it would have been gradual and would not have initially involved the Hellenic Jews, who over time either converted to Christianity or became Romaniote Jews and Alexandrian Karaite Jews, or the Essenes, and it probably did not involve the Sadducees either, the historical leading faction among the Kohanim and Levites in Jerusalem, who rejected the Oral Torah of the Pharisees and the work of the Scribes in documenting it (which started a process which would eventually yield the Misnah and then the Talmuds, and finally the Zohar and the Sulchan Aruch*) and whose influence collapsed towards the end of the First Century.

*The Zohar is the prototypical work of Kabbalah, whereas the Sulchan Aruch is the definitive Sephardi code of Jewish law, and most editions contain additional material analogous to footnotes which covers differences between how the Torah is observed by the Ashkenazi Jews vs. the Sephardim for whom the book was originally composed; a copy with these added editions is referred to by a Hebrew phrase meaning “set table.”
 
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The Liturgist

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Well, is a Ukrainian Catholic worshipping in a Byzantine Rite a 'Roman' Catholic? Or a Maronite Catholic a 'Roman' Catholic? Go try to call one of them a 'Roman' Catholic. I am not responsible for what happens to you if you do. They are Catholic, they are in union with the Catholic Church, but they aren't 'Roman' at all. And they will tell you that.

Me? I am a member of the Latin Rite, so calling me Roman Catholic is no foul. But for millions of other Catholics of diverse rites it is a foul. Because it is inaccurate.

I would imagine they would take less offense than if I called them “Uniates.” Many Eastern Catholics identify as Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

The only problem is that exclusively using the word Catholic frustrates ecumenical discourse. For example, Anglo Catholics, and the Anglican Catholic Church, a continuing Anglican church, and Old Catholics, and Polish National Catholics.

Also, since Vatican II, the Eastern Catholics have been permitted to rediscover the traditional theology of the Orthodox, Assyrian and Mar Thoma churches most of them separated from.* The net result is a disparity in liturgy, theological emphasis and spiritual practice that has become quite noticeable in the case of some of the Byzantine and Oriental Catholic churches. For example, the Coptic Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Romanian Greek Catholic, Belarussian Greek Catholic, Melkite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic churches have de-Latinized their liturgy (especially the Ruthenian Greek Catholic), and are still in communion with the Pope, but many have deleted common Roman Catholic practices such as the Stations of the Cross, the Novena, the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the use of sacring bells, and certain liturgical Latinizations. In Ukraine, anger over this led to the formation of the Society of St. Josaphat, which is in a formal partnership with the SSPX and celebrates according to the old Latin-influenced rites (for example, Pascha is celebrated on the morning of Easter Sunday rather than at midnight).

Lastly, Eastern Catholics make up only a small portion of the total number of Catholics in communion with Rome, a very small portion.

Thus, I think it is reasonable that the word Catholic be shared ecumenically with Anglo Catholics, their Presbyterian counterparts the Scoto-Catholics, their Lutheran counterparts the Evangelical Catholics, the Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, the Old Catholics, especially the Union of Scranton consisting of the Norwegian Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church, which was kicked out of the Union of Utrecht around 2002 for being conservative (and then, about a year or two later liberals who weren’t even entirely Polish illegally occupied the PNCC parish in Toronto for several years and painted a rainbow flag on the roof while the church litigated to recover its property, which fortunately they did, and I believe the PNCC is one of the churches that under the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Roman and Eastern Catholics isolated from one of their own priests can receive sacraments from a PNCC priest, and likewise Polish National Catholics can do the same.

By the way, Eastern Orthodox regard themselves as Roman and as Catholic, and some object to using the term Roman Catholic to refer to the Catholic Church led by the Pope in Rome. As you may or may not know, the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox in the Levant are commonly called Rum, or Rum Orthodox, from Romioii, meaning Roman, with the Eastern Mediterranean known as the Bahr-al-Rum, meaning “Sea of the Romans.”

There is also the issue of Sedevacantists.

Also, the Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed and Quincunque Vult express a belief in the Holy Catholic Church. The compromise that allows ecumenical forums like this one to function is that we all get to define Catholicity based on our beliefs, so for some members, the Catholic Church is everyone in communion with the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople or the Archbishop of Canterbury (this opinion is exceedingly rare but not unknown), for others, it is all of the churches who are led by bishops or bishops and priests in apostolic succession, defined either on the basis of common faith and sacramental validity as per St. Cyprian of Carthage or on the basis of sacramental validity alone as per St. Augustine of Hippo, or some admixture of the two, or in the case of some Protestants, on the basis of continuity with the apostolic faith, a succession of ideology rather than based on sacraments, while for others it consists of branches of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church resulting from schisms more political than theological, and for others it consists of the local church, and then, there is invisible church ecclesiology, wherein every Christian everywhere is part of the Church Catholic, with some differences in opinion about what constitutes a Christian. And these are just the most widely held ecclesiologies. The common thread of all ecclesiologies is that they revolve around the definition of Catholicity and the Church. Of course, the word Church means ecclesia, meaning assembly, and the word Catholic means “according to the whole” rather than “Universal” as is widely believed, which makes the word synonymous with Orthodoxy.

And to be fair, Orthodoxy is widely used to refer to churches other than the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and is also commonly used incorrectly to refer to correct belief. It actually means “Right worship”, and while I do as a general rule believe in lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, the case of the mainline Protestant denominations has resulted in some liturgical churches whose Doxology is correct, at least most of the time, can be what I would call heterodogmatic. (although the angry sermon delivered after the revocation of Roe v. Wade by a minister at Old South Church, a UCC parish in Boston with beautiful architecture whose worship is usually unobjectionable was, in my opinion, other than correct doxology, and one could object to the pro-unity, anti-division equivocation on the same issue by his moderate colleague at the famous Old North Church, which in all fairness to him is a national landmark attended by people of from both sides of the aisle, so to speak, so a major part of his job is to not cause offense, which actually has for historic reasons been a major part of the job of Anglicans throughout history, many of whom seem to have a sacred vocation to keep the peace between opposing theological factions; this historical attribute, whose goals were laudable in the Elizabethan Settlement, Latitudinarianism, and the Broad Church approach, has become problematic when it comes to human sexuality and abortion, which are issues where only the failing mainline churches, a small minority of other religions like Unitarian Universalism, Salafi Islam, and Reform Judaism, and various classes of the irreligious, disagree with a consensus that unites Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, most of the worlds’ Anglicans (and most members of the mainline churches in general aside from their clergy and seminary professors), Zoroastrianism, and Orthodox and Karaite Judaism.

Also, one final point of great relevance to this thread: the scriptural canons are different when one compares the Vulgate to the Greek, Italo-Albanian, Arabic and Church Slavonic Bibles used by the Byzantine Catholics, the Ge’ez Bible of the Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholic churches, and the Peshitta used by the Syriac Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, the Syro Malabar and Malankara Catholics, and the Maronite Catholics (who separated from the Syriac Orthodox Church about 450 years before entering into communion with the Roman Catholics, and fled to the hills of Lebanon, which was a smart move, as they were able to protect themselves against attack and thus are now politically the most powerful Christian population in the Middle East, given the President of Lebanon is required to be one, and it is noteworthy that the Druze religion also survived by occupying Lebanese hills).

So I propose the use of the term Catholics in Communion with Rome, or Roman and Eastern Catholics, to be inclusive of the Sui Juris churches, many of which are extremely independent of the Vatican, and have a relationship like that of an autonomous Orthodox church like the Church of Sinai to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Church of Montenegro to the Church of Serbia, the Church of Bessarabia to the Church of Romania, the Church of Finland to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and the Church of Japan to the Moscow Patriarchate (this is not a complete list as there are probably 35 canonical autonomous churches divided among 15 or 16 canonical autocephalous churches in Eastern Orthodoxy, and a more complex scenario in Oriental Orthodox where, for example, the Armenian church consists of two senior Catholicoi and two junior Patriarchs each of which is in charge of an autocephalous church, which at present are in full communion, but were divided in the Cold War due to the Soviet conquest of Armenia).

*For example, the Chaldeans entered into communion with Rome due to a tribal dispute between their tribe, which lived mainly in Baghdad and spoke mainly Arabic, and the other tribes, which were concentrated in the Nineveh Plains and Mosul, and spoke mainly Assyrian (Tikrit on the other hand is the historic home of the Eastern half of the Syriac Orthodox Church, where the Maphrian lived until the office was relocated to India to support the Malankara church. The Maphrian, a term coined to avoid confusion with the Catholicos of the East after the Syriac-Assyrian schism, consecrates the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, who in turn consecrates the Maphrian. Of course the Syriac Orthodox were present throughout Iraq including Mosul and Baghdad, but were never present in Persia to the extent the Assyrians and Armenians historically have been.
 
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rturner76

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It has been a typical thing for protestants to change whatever they don't like so dropping the Apocrypha is standard practice for a group of denominations that make their own way through scripture without the guidance of the Holy Mother Church who approved the books of the New and Old Testaments.

Protestants do what feels good instead of following the teachings of the Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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It has been a typical thing for protestants to change whatever they don't like so dropping the Apocrypha is standard practice for a group of denominations that make their own way through scripture without the guidance of the Holy Mother Church who approved the books of the New and Old Testaments.

Protestants do what feels good instead of following the teachings of the Church.

Some Protestants, to be sure. However, I don’t think that criticism can be applied to High Church Protestants like conservative Anglo Catholics, especially in the Continuing Anglican churches, and Evangelical Catholics (such as the LCMS, LCC and ELDONA), or to conservative Protestants like the WELS, PCA or SBC, or to the Assyrians, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and the Old Catholic Union of Scranton.

Regarding Old Catholics, these were canonical Roman Catholics who rejected Vatican I, but the Union of Utrecht, whose Archbishop led the movement, was taken over by liberals who left the Roman Catholic Church in anger over the fact that the RCC, like the Orthodox and traditional Protestants, indeed, like most Christians in general, would not ordain homosexuals, or perform gay marriage. However, in the US, where the Polish National Catholic Church is located, and in Norway where the Norwegian Catholic Church is located, these Old Catholic churches remained aligned in terms of moral theology with the ancient faith, because in the US, the Liberal Catholic Church, the Metropolitan Community Church, the United Church of Christ (which I left because I believe we should never, contrary to their grossly offensive ad campaign, put a comma where God intended a period), and most of the larger cathedrals in the Episcopal Church, as well as many ELCA parishes, moved to provide liberal liturgical worship based on the Roman Rite, and in Scandinavia, the Church of Norway and the Church of Sweden, which was in a personal union with that of Norway, are extremely high church and as state churches reflected the politics of their government (resulting in the formation of the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden and the growth of the Norwegian Catholic Church).
 
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rturner76

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Some Protestants, to be sure. However, I don’t think that criticism can be applied to High Church Protestants like conservative Anglo Catholics, especially in the Continuing Anglican churches, and Evangelical Catholics (such as the LCMS, LCC and ELDONA), or to conservative Protestants like the WELS, PCA or SBC, or to the Assyrians, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and the Old Catholic Union of Scranton.

Regarding Old Catholics, these were canonical Roman Catholics who rejected Vatican I, but the Union of Utrecht, whose Archbishop led the movement, was taken over by liberals who left the Roman Catholic Church in anger over the fact that the RCC, like the Orthodox and traditional Protestants, indeed, like most Christians in general, would not ordain homosexuals, or perform gay marriage. However, in the US, where the Polish National Catholic Church is located, and in Norway where the Norwegian Catholic Church is located, these Old Catholic churches remained aligned in terms of moral theology with the ancient faith, because in the US, the Liberal Catholic Church, the Metropolitan Community Church, the United Church of Christ (which I left because I believe we should never, contrary to their grossly offensive ad campaign, put a comma where God intended a period), and most of the larger cathedrals in the Episcopal Church, as well as many ELCA parishes, moved to provide liberal liturgical worship based on the Roman Rite, and in Scandinavia, the Church of Norway and the Church of Sweden, which was in a personal union with that of Norway, are extremely high church and as state churches reflected the politics of their government (resulting in the formation of the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden and the growth of the Norwegian Catholic Church).
I don't think of Anglicans as protestants but the WELS, did drop the Apocrypha. I was actually baptized in a WELS church back in the day and they are very conservative but I didn't get confirmed with my class. I think the different Catholic CHurches have the Bible in it's entirety but I could be wrong. I'm not familiar with all of the sects. The ELCA is pretty liberal and dropped the Apocrypha also. All of the Orthodox, I consider to not be protestant but separated brethren.

I'm not familiar with many of the denominations you listed so I'll have to take your word for what scripture they follow.
 
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chevyontheriver

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As we both know, the vast majority of Catholics, especially in the United States, are Roman Catholics and in my middling city all of the Catholic churches are Roman Catholic. I have yet to meet any member of your church who is not Roman Catholic.
A childhood friend was Ukrainian Greek Catholic. A college friend was Ruthenian Catholic. My daughter's college roommate was Coptic, but she may have been Coptic Orthodox rather than Coptic Catholic. My parish hosts an Eastern Catholic rite which I think may be of the Antiochene family of rites. They are out there even if you haven't met any. And you might never meet any if you don't know they exist. But they do exist. There are multiple millions of them.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I would imagine they would take less offense than if I called them “Uniates.” Many Eastern Catholics identify as Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

The only problem is that exclusively using the word Catholic frustrates ecumenical discourse. For example, Anglo Catholics, and the Anglican Catholic Church, a continuing Anglican church, and Old Catholics, and Polish National Catholics.

Also, since Vatican II, the Eastern Catholics have been permitted to rediscover the traditional theology of the Orthodox, Assyrian and Mar Thoma churches most of them separated from.* The net result is a disparity in liturgy, theological emphasis and spiritual practice that has become quite noticeable in the case of some of the Byzantine and Oriental Catholic churches. For example, the Coptic Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Romanian Greek Catholic, Belarussian Greek Catholic, Melkite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic churches have de-Latinized their liturgy (especially the Ruthenian Greek Catholic), and are still in communion with the Pope, but many have deleted common Roman Catholic practices such as the Stations of the Cross, the Novena, the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the use of sacring bells, and certain liturgical Latinizations. In Ukraine, anger over this led to the formation of the Society of St. Josaphat, which is in a formal partnership with the SSPX and celebrates according to the old Latin-influenced rites (for example, Pascha is celebrated on the morning of Easter Sunday rather than at midnight).

Lastly, Eastern Catholics make up only a small portion of the total number of Catholics in communion with Rome, a very small portion.

Thus, I think it is reasonable that the word Catholic be shared ecumenically with Anglo Catholics, their Presbyterian counterparts the Scoto-Catholics, their Lutheran counterparts the Evangelical Catholics, the Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, the Old Catholics, especially the Union of Scranton consisting of the Norwegian Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church, which was kicked out of the Union of Utrecht around 2002 for being conservative (and then, about a year or two later liberals who weren’t even entirely Polish illegally occupied the PNCC parish in Toronto for several years and painted a rainbow flag on the roof while the church litigated to recover its property, which fortunately they did, and I believe the PNCC is one of the churches that under the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Roman and Eastern Catholics isolated from one of their own priests can receive sacraments from a PNCC priest, and likewise Polish National Catholics can do the same.

By the way, Eastern Orthodox regard themselves as Roman and as Catholic, and some object to using the term Roman Catholic to refer to the Catholic Church led by the Pope in Rome. As you may or may not know, the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox in the Levant are commonly called Rum, or Rum Orthodox, from Romioii, meaning Roman, with the Eastern Mediterranean known as the Bahr-al-Rum, meaning “Sea of the Romans.”

There is also the issue of Sedevacantists.

Also, the Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed and Quincunque Vult express a belief in the Holy Catholic Church. The compromise that allows ecumenical forums like this one to function is that we all get to define Catholicity based on our beliefs, so for some members, the Catholic Church is everyone in communion with the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople or the Archbishop of Canterbury (this opinion is exceedingly rare but not unknown), for others, it is all of the churches who are led by bishops or bishops and priests in apostolic succession, defined either on the basis of common faith and sacramental validity as per St. Cyprian of Carthage or on the basis of sacramental validity alone as per St. Augustine of Hippo, or some admixture of the two, or in the case of some Protestants, on the basis of continuity with the apostolic faith, a succession of ideology rather than based on sacraments, while for others it consists of branches of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church resulting from schisms more political than theological, and for others it consists of the local church, and then, there is invisible church ecclesiology, wherein every Christian everywhere is part of the Church Catholic, with some differences in opinion about what constitutes a Christian. And these are just the most widely held ecclesiologies. The common thread of all ecclesiologies is that they revolve around the definition of Catholicity and the Church. Of course, the word Church means ecclesia, meaning assembly, and the word Catholic means “according to the whole” rather than “Universal” as is widely believed, which makes the word synonymous with Orthodoxy.

And to be fair, Orthodoxy is widely used to refer to churches other than the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and is also commonly used incorrectly to refer to correct belief. It actually means “Right worship”, and while I do as a general rule believe in lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, the case of the mainline Protestant denominations has resulted in some liturgical churches whose Doxology is correct, at least most of the time, can be what I would call heterodogmatic. (although the angry sermon delivered after the revocation of Roe v. Wade by a minister at Old South Church, a UCC parish in Boston with beautiful architecture whose worship is usually unobjectionable was, in my opinion, other than correct doxology, and one could object to the pro-unity, anti-division equivocation on the same issue by his moderate colleague at the famous Old North Church, which in all fairness to him is a national landmark attended by people of from both sides of the aisle, so to speak, so a major part of his job is to not cause offense, which actually has for historic reasons been a major part of the job of Anglicans throughout history, many of whom seem to have a sacred vocation to keep the peace between opposing theological factions; this historical attribute, whose goals were laudable in the Elizabethan Settlement, Latitudinarianism, and the Broad Church approach, has become problematic when it comes to human sexuality and abortion, which are issues where only the failing mainline churches, a small minority of other religions like Unitarian Universalism, Salafi Islam, and Reform Judaism, and various classes of the irreligious, disagree with a consensus that unites Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, most of the worlds’ Anglicans (and most members of the mainline churches in general aside from their clergy and seminary professors), Zoroastrianism, and Orthodox and Karaite Judaism.

Also, one final point of great relevance to this thread: the scriptural canons are different when one compares the Vulgate to the Greek, Italo-Albanian, Arabic and Church Slavonic Bibles used by the Byzantine Catholics, the Ge’ez Bible of the Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholic churches, and the Peshitta used by the Syriac Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, the Syro Malabar and Malankara Catholics, and the Maronite Catholics (who separated from the Syriac Orthodox Church about 450 years before entering into communion with the Roman Catholics, and fled to the hills of Lebanon, which was a smart move, as they were able to protect themselves against attack and thus are now politically the most powerful Christian population in the Middle East, given the President of Lebanon is required to be one, and it is noteworthy that the Druze religion also survived by occupying Lebanese hills).

So I propose the use of the term Catholics in Communion with Rome, or Roman and Eastern Catholics, to be inclusive of the Sui Juris churches, many of which are extremely independent of the Vatican, and have a relationship like that of an autonomous Orthodox church like the Church of Sinai to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Church of Montenegro to the Church of Serbia, the Church of Bessarabia to the Church of Romania, the Church of Finland to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and the Church of Japan to the Moscow Patriarchate (this is not a complete list as there are probably 35 canonical autonomous churches divided among 15 or 16 canonical autocephalous churches in Eastern Orthodoxy, and a more complex scenario in Oriental Orthodox where, for example, the Armenian church consists of two senior Catholicoi and two junior Patriarchs each of which is in charge of an autocephalous church, which at present are in full communion, but were divided in the Cold War due to the Soviet conquest of Armenia).

*For example, the Chaldeans entered into communion with Rome due to a tribal dispute between their tribe, which lived mainly in Baghdad and spoke mainly Arabic, and the other tribes, which were concentrated in the Nineveh Plains and Mosul, and spoke mainly Assyrian (Tikrit on the other hand is the historic home of the Eastern half of the Syriac Orthodox Church, where the Maphrian lived until the office was relocated to India to support the Malankara church. The Maphrian, a term coined to avoid confusion with the Catholicos of the East after the Syriac-Assyrian schism, consecrates the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, who in turn consecrates the Maphrian. Of course the Syriac Orthodox were present throughout Iraq including Mosul and Baghdad, but were never present in Persia to the extent the Assyrians and Armenians historically have been.
A whole lot of people want the 'catholic' name. The simple solution is for more of us to act 'kata holos' as parts of the whole, rather than as claimants to a name they want to monopolize. That goes for Polish National Catholics and Evangelical Catholics and plain old Catholics. We have work to do until we can all be plain old Catholics with whatever historical modifiers we want to keep. I'm all for actually doing that work with those who want to do the same. I just think it's more of a polemical issue than anything when some people make the claim they are Catholic. Prayers that there can be some movement in the right direction.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think of Anglicans as protestants but the WELS, did drop the Apocrypha. I was actually baptized in a WELS church back in the day and they are very conservative but I didn't get confirmed with my class. I think the different Catholic CHurches have the Bible in it's entirety but I could be wrong. I'm not familiar with all of the sects. The ELCA is pretty liberal and dropped the Apocrypha also. All of the Orthodox, I consider to not be protestant but separated brethren.

I'm not familiar with many of the denominations you listed so I'll have to take your word for what scripture they follow.

To be clear, I was not in my post addressing whether or not they retained the Deuterocanonicals. There are specific historic reasons why most of the reformers had a negative view of them and it largely amounted to St. Jerome, who in translating the Vulgate from the Hebrew and Aramaic, felt those books which were only in Greek (as far as he knew - the existence of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Qumran Caves was at the unknown) were inferior (he also translated a Psalter from the Hebraic text, but at the request of the Pope also translated a Psalter from the Septuagint, because the Roman church read the Psalms in a manner similar to the Greek church and the alternate arrangement of the Hebraic Psalter creates a problem with liturgical compatibility, and the Septuagint Psalter is what you find in most Vulgates and the Douai Rheims.

However, his idea about the superiority of Hebrew and Aramaic sources prompted the Protestants, and interestingly, the Russian Orthodox Church in the 19th century when commissioning what is known as the “Synodal Bible” in vernacular Russian for personal use, to use the Masoretic Text as a source.
 
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Valletta

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As we both know, the vast majority of Catholics, especially in the United States, are Roman Catholics and in my middling city all of the Catholic churches are Roman Catholic. I have yet to meet any member of your church who is not Roman Catholic.
Incorrect.
The vast majority of Catholics in the United States are Catholics, members of the Catholic Church. There is no "Roman Catholic" Church, we follow various liturgical rites but by far the most predominant is the "Latin" or "Roman" liturgical rite. When traveling it is most helpful and convenient for one who attends masses of the Roman rite to find a church identified as a "Roman Catholic" church, one that offers the mass in the Latin or Roman liturgy.
 
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Andrewn

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To be clear, I was not in my post addressing whether or not they retained the Deuterocanonicals. There are specific historic reasons why most of the reformers had a negative view of them
I understand that reformers including Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, and even Anabaptists called these books "Apocrypha." Still, they included them in their Bibles. I'm not sure about the Calvinist / Reformed / Presbyterian / Puritan position. My question is: which groups completely rejected them and when did the tradition of not printing them in the Bible start? Did this tendency start with Baptists?
 
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The Liturgist

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I understand that reformers including Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, and even Anabaptists called these books "Apocrypha." Still, they included them in their Bibles. I'm not sure about the Calvinist / Reformed / Presbyterian / Puritan position. My question is: which groups completely rejected them and when did the tradition of not printing them in the Bible start? Did this tendency start with Baptists?

John Calvin regarded Baruch as protocanon, so the wholesale rejection probably started with other later Reformed churches, a view also taken up by the early English Baptists, who differed from Anabaptists by embracing a congregational polity, and who in some cases were Reformed but in other cases Arminian. My understanding is that not printing the deuterocanon started in the late 18th century as a cost cutting move as they were perceived to be less important.

Specifically, my guess would be the rationale was that people wouldn’t mind, since the English Non-Conformers were at the time mostly Reformed, as was the Church of Scotland, and the only churches that really cared about these books were the Anglican provinces, and even then, ministers at the time could opt not to read from the Deuterocanon (now, in the Episcopal Church USA, the propers for Eucharist on the Feast of St. Luke include the reading of the pericope “Honor a physician” from Sirach, which can be read at Evensong on that feast in the UK, as the first lesson, so if your church is Episcopalian and is going to celebrate that feast, you will be hearing Sirach (Ecclesiasticus). And the publishers were right; not only did people not object, but they inadvertently gave rise to a movement that rejects these books as Scripture, and have caused other Bibles such as the NIV to not bother translating them (which strikes me as a bit hypocritical on the part of Zondervan, because the preface for version 2 of the NIV, which I often read while bored in church with the sermon, as an adolescent, it embarrasses me to confess, and I found myself really angered by the anti-KJV rhetoric used in the preface as I had grown up with it and could read it just fine, was that they indicated a new translation was needed in part due to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls among other things include Hebraic fragments of deuterocanonical books from both the Septuagint and other sources, like the Ethiopic Ge’ez Bible, for instance, 1 Enoch, as well as text that supported Septuagint readings of Old Testament books, but we don’t really see any influence of that in the NIV, at least as so far as I am aware; rather, it seems more inspired by the Alexandrian text type, specifically, more than anything else, being a translation, in modern English, of the Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, and with regards to the Old Testament, the Codex Alexandrinus. And also a great opportunity to incorporate material from the Western text type by comparing the Vetus Latina and the newly discovered Curetonian Gospels and the Codex Sinaiticus Syriacus, both translations of the Gospels following the Western text type collectively known as the Vetus Syra, was missed.
 
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Andrewn

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My question is: which groups completely rejected them and when did the tradition of not printing them in the Bible start?
I did some reading and the answer seems to be that excluding the Apocrypha is a Presbyterian thing.

- The original reformers including Lutherans, Anglicans, Reformed, and Anabaptists accepted the Deuterocanonical books. They dropped them a notch to Apocrypha but still included them in the Bible. So, the story of rejecting them does not start in the 16th century. It rather starts in the 19th century.

- The British and Foreign Bible Society was formed on 7 March 1804 to make the Bible available throughout the world.

- It dropped the Apocrypha from its bibles published in English in 1804 to make the scriptures less costly to produce. But it did include the Apocrypha in Bibles for use in continental Europe.

- A controversy with the Presbyterian faction in 1825-27, which objected to inclusion of the Apocrypha, resulted in the establishment of the Scottish Bible Society.


Apocrypha controversy - Wikipedia
 
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The Liturgist

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I did some reading and the answer seems to be that excluding the Apocrypha is a Presbyterian thing.

- The original reformers including Lutherans, Anglicans, Reformed, and Anabaptists accepted the Deuterocanonical books. They dropped them a notch to Apocrypha but still included them in the Bible. So, the story of rejecting them does not start in the 16th century. It rather starts in the 19th century.

- The British and Foreign Bible Society was formed on 7 March 1804 to make the Bible available throughout the world.

- It dropped the Apocrypha from its bibles published in English in 1804 to make the scriptures less costly to produce. But it did include the Apocrypha in Bibles for use in continental Europe.

- A controversy with the Presbyterian faction in 1825-27, which objected to inclusion of the Apocrypha, resulted in the establishment of the Scottish Bible Society.


Apocrypha controversy - Wikipedia

That explains it. And since at that time both the Church of Scotland and the Church of England used the KJV, as well as nearly all English speaking Presbyterians in the US, England, Wales and Ireland, where Presbyterianism has always been dominant among the Protestants of Ulster despite the efforts of the British to promote the Anglican Church of Ireland, until they basically threw in the towel both there and in Wales in the 19th century, disestablishing, which is to say, privatizing, the Anglican provinces of those countries, it was an economically smart move, but one I would argue was spiritually disadvantageous.

Indeed, I would have dropped some of the “Protocanonical” books for economy before dropping some “Deuterocanonical” books. For example, Martin Luther and St. Athanasius did not regard Esther as worthy of protocanonical statue; I do, but only the longer version in the Septuagint. There is also overlap between the historical books of Samuel, Kingdoms and Chronicles, and in content involving the Minor Prophets.. Now, mind you, I wouldn’t want to drop any of these, but if reducing duplication there and omitting Masoretic Esther allowed Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch and/or at least some of the Maccabees to be included, this would be worthwhile.

However, ideally, I think every Bible should have a full set of the Septuagint books, as well as the longer versions of Esther and Daniel (Masoretic Daniel is good, but the longer version with Susannah, Bel and the Dragon, and the Song of the Three Children, Benedicite Omni Opera, is just more complete.*


*Indeed, not having the extra material feels like dropping the Adultery Pericope from the Gospel According to St. John, which is probably an interpolation as all the early manuscripts lack it (perhaps it came from the lost Q source, or the lost portions of the Gospel of Peter, which perhaps was the Q source, and which if so is probably been psuedepigraphically misattributed, since church tradition holds St. Mark based his Gospel on the preaching of St. Peter, and St. Luke on the preaching of St. Paul (I strongly suspect Luke ch. 1 was narrated by the Blessed Virgin Mary and from St. John the Beloved Disciple, because St. Luke was the physician of St. Mary, St. John her adopted son, and all three lived in Ephesus for a time, and who else would know the intimate details of her pregnancy and that of her cousin St. Elizabeth, the interaction with St. Symeon, and the songs that were sung, the Benedictus, the Magnificat and the Nunc Dimitis, the three Evangelical Canticles?).

However, if the Gospel According to Peter is the source, and reading English translations, there seems a stylistic similiarity, in that the passion narrative in the Gospel of Peter is extremely lucid, like the Adultery pericope in John, with little details; just as the pericope in John records our Lord scribbling in the dirt, the Gospel attributed to Peter records details like the seal put on the tomb (which is part of the Passion tradition but not recorded elsewhere, but the sealing, as recorded in Peter, is re-enacted annually by the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem in the Aedicule at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and is among the highlights of the Armenian festivities, just as the Holy Fire is a highlight, or the highlights, of the Greek festivities. That being said, bearing in mind we only have a fragment, but also considering that some bishops suspected the Gospel of having a docetic tendency, which we cannot analyze, and we have no idea if the adultery pericope came from it or not, just that it may not have been an original part of the Gospel of John, since the oldest manuscripts consistently lack it (but we don’t have all of them), the empty tomb sequence in the work is pretty weird. Although not clearly heretical. For example, it has the Cross floating around and speaking, which is weird, but less weird when you consider that traditional liturgies of the Orthodox Churches and I believe the Roman church include prayers that are invocations of the Holy Cross.
 
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Valletta

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To be clear, I was not in my post addressing whether or not they retained the Deuterocanonicals. There are specific historic reasons why most of the reformers had a negative view of them and it largely amounted to St. Jerome, who in translating the Vulgate from the Hebrew and Aramaic, felt those books which were only in Greek (as far as he knew - the existence of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Qumran Caves was at the unknown) were inferior . . .
Jerome noted, as Biblical scholars do today with footnotes in Bible translations, a difference in acceptance, in this case that a number of Jews had dropped the Deuterocanonicals. When some Catholics complained Jerome stated:
"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).
 
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Andrewn

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For example, Martin Luther and St. Athanasius did not regard Esther as worthy of protocanonical statue;
Esther is also the only OT book that is completely absent from the Dead Sea Scroll collection.

There is also overlap between the historical books of Samuel, Kingdoms and Chronicles, and in content involving the Minor Prophets.
Personally, I find the book of Jeremiah too long and repetitive. Perhaps including the shorter LXX version, instead, would make sense.

Indeed, not having the extra material feels like dropping the Adultery Pericope from the Gospel According to St. John,
Like almost all Christians and perhaps most non-Christians, I love that pericope. But I wish it were included in Luke's Gospel, instead, as in some manuscripts.
 
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Erose

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That poses somewhat of a conundrum for those who insist on a fixed canon of scriptures, does it not?
I believe it does for those that want to make the argument that there was a universally accepted closed canon at or before Christ's birth.

We do know that
  • the Sadducees and Samaritans only accepted the Torah as Scripture.
  • the Pharisees accepted a canon of Sacred Scripture close to but not quite the same as what modern day Jews and Protestants accept today.
  • The Essenes a pretty large canon of Scripture.
  • The Hellenized Jews used the Septuagint, because well it was in Greek.
  • There seems to be other Jewish Synagogues that IMO placed even more Jewish writings that where not accepted by the mainline Sects, which included the books of Enoch, Jubilees, Testaments of the Patriarchs and Moses, among others.
  • We don't know what the Zealots accepted if they were different from other Sects.
  • And we do not know what the Merkabah mystics accepted either.

Anyway what we get IMO when you start really looking at it, the canon of Scripture really depended upon what each Sect believed, and if those writings fit into their world views.

Or it could be even more pragmatic than that. Since religious writings (both Scripture and Apocryphal) where probably hard to come back back at that time, that Synagogues collected whatever religious writings they could get their hands on and used them during their worship services. The problem is who knows?
 
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Erose

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They seem to have copied some previous work, but not all, because to this day there are branches of Christianity, such as the Coptic church, which have considerably different canons. The reality remains that there is no uniformly agreed-upon canon of Christian scripture accepted by all branches of Christianity, unless, of course, one wishes to deny the existence of other branches than the one with which one is affiliated.
It depends upon when the specific Patriarchate left communion with Rome. Ethiopian Church for example had very little interaction it seems with the rest of the Church and thus we see the largest variation from the rest. Then you had the Nestorian and Monophysite Churches leaving in the 5 and 6th centuries, and then the Eastern Orthodox churches in the 11th century. All their canons for the most part agree with Rome's because this was ruled upon in the 4th and 5th centuries. The Councils of Carthage seemed to decree the canon based upon the Synod of Hippo, which was based upon the ruling of the Synod of Rome under Pope Damasus.

What you see though that there are questions raised about the canonicity of Psalm 151 and Prayer of Manasseh, which were often included in codexes and scrolls of the Psalms. The Prayer was also sometimes included with the Books of Chronicles. Rome did not accept them as canonical in the long run for whatever reason, where the Eastern Churches did. Probably because the Eastern Churches held onto using the Septuagint in their services, where the Latin Church eventually moved to the Vulgate. Don't know the answer to that.

3rd Maccabees I'm not really sure why it became accepted in the East.

But that being said, if you study the Orthodox view of biblical canonicity, it is a lot more complicated than how we view it in the West. So you do have that.
 
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Andrewn

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What you see though that there are questions raised about the canonicity of Psalm 151 and Prayer of Manasseh, which were often included in codexes and scrolls of the Psalms. The Prayer was also sometimes included with the Books of Chronicles. Rome did not accept them as canonical in the long run for whatever reason, where the Eastern Churches did. Probably because the Eastern Churches held onto using the Septuagint in their services, where the Latin Church eventually moved to the Vulgate. Don't know the answer to that. 3rd Maccabees I'm not really sure why it became accepted in the East.
It is not that additional books became accepted in the East but rather that they became unaccepted in the West. Until the 4th century most Christians used the LXX as the basis for the OT. Saint Jerome did not want to include the Deuterocanonical books in the translation. Jerome lived in Palestine and was aware of the Hebrew canon that had developed.

His contemporary Saint Augustine arguing from tradition, wanted them included in new vulgate translation. After conferring with Pope Damasus and realizing most people sided with Augustine, Jerome included the Deuterocanonical books in his translation. Jerome's vulgate was widely regarded and used in the Western world. The Septuagint along with Greek texts was widely used in the Eastern Church.

In addition to the Catholic Deuterocanonical books, EO accept the following:

The Coptic Church of Egypt accepts only the Catholic Deuterocanonical books + the Prayer of Manasseh. It does not accept the rest.

The Ethiopian OT is quite unique. It includes all the EO canon + the following:

Jubilees
Enoch
Ezra Sutuel
4 Baruch
Josippon
 
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