Apocrypha and the "intertestimental gap" between OT and NT

[Andrewn]

But there's no doubt that God was silent for 400 years from the end of the OT to the NT. Everybody can see how ludicrous it is to claim the prophesied silence in Amos 8:11-12 was only for 3 days - the time-lapse from the crucifixion to resurrection! Flavius Josephus and other venerable Authors of his time diligently chronicled the sufferings and joy of Israel (Judea) after their return from captivity. This was an era when the Levitical Priesthood has ceased to exist.

You claim, without evidence, that God was silent for 400 years and that the levitical priesthood ceased to exist during that time period.

Then you say that God broke his silence when he sent Gabriel to Zacharias, who was a levitical priest officiating in a functioning temple. And then you repeat the assertion that God never spoke to anyone in Israel during a period of 400 years and you add that "scholars" agree about this.

Your claims do not need a refutation. They are so ludicrous that you contradicted yourself and did not attempt to substantiate your assertions.

Regardless of whether the Deuterocanonical books are Divine or not, you need to study the issue of God's silence further.

 

[Andrewn]

On a doctrinal level, I see no reason for Protestants to object to the majority of the Deuterocanonical books,

It seems that objection to the Deuterocanonical books increases with each step toward Nuda Scriptura. While the Reformed only demoted them to Apocrypha, Presbyterians progressively rejected them. They were followed historically by Puritans then Baptists, then SDAs and Pentecostals.

No, what I pointed out was that Esther, Ezra and Daniel were all written within 400 years of the birth of our Lord, according to the most widely accepted scholarship.

There are many other canonical books that were edited and completed during those 400 years including books of the Torah, especially Leviticus, and many others.

BTW, I recently read 1 Esdras to see if it sheds light on the controversy about the Chronology in Ezra-Nehemiah. It looks like it might. Now I need to reread Ezra-Nehemiah to see if the Chronology in 1 Esdras fits.

 

[Trivalee]

You claim, without evidence, that God was silent for 400 years and that the levitical priesthood ceased to exist during that time period.

Then you say that God broke his silence when he sent Gabriel to Zacharias, who was a levitical priest officiating in a functioning temple. And then you repeat the assertion that God never spoke to anyone in Israel during a period of 400 years and you add that "scholars" agree about this.

Your claims do not need a refutation. They are so ludicrous that you contradicted yourself and did not attempt to substantiate your assertions.

Regardless of whether the Deuterocanonical books are Divine or not, you need to study the issue of God's silence further.

Zacharias was from the Levitical order, I was wrong in the claim that the Levitical Priesthood ceased to exist during that period. I recall that it was the Levites that cleansed the temple after A4E's desecration, Daniel 8:14.

However, their presence does not negate my position that God was silent in the 400 years between the Old and New Testaments. The weight of a rebuttal in a scriptural discourse is measured by the veracity of scripture/passage or case presented to disprove an exegesis. In this instance, you provided none. So you're arguing against a position you have no superior counterargument. My position is ludicrous to you because you don't like the sound of it, that's your problem, isn't it?

I am not dogmatic; if you can provide a text showing that God spoke to anyone in Israel during this period, I will concede that I was wrong.

 

[Andrewn]

However, their presence does not negate my position that God was silent in the 400 years between the Old and New Testaments. The weight of a rebuttal in a scriptural discourse is measured by the veracity of scripture/passage or case presented to disprove an exegesis. In this instance, you provided none. So you're arguing against a position you have no superior counterargument.

I have a problem with the concept of God being silent in any period of time. For example, the last book of the NT was perhaps written between 80 and 90 AD, would you say that God has been silent since then? Of course not. He has spoken to millions of people. Similarly, the Word of God was alive and functioning before the incarnation of Christ.

As far a biblical books written in the 400 years before Christ, scholars believe that the following books were written during these 400 years:

1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemia
Esther
Job
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Daniel
Jonah

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

My position is ludicrous to you because you don't like the sound of it, that's your problem, isn't it? I am not dogmatic; if you can provide a text showing that God spoke to anyone in Israel during this period, I will concede that I was wrong.

Your position is unreasonable because God never stays silent. Can you prove that God was silent during those 400 years and that He has been silent since the NT was completed?

 

[Trivalee]

I have a problem with the concept of God being silent in any period of time. For example, the last book of the NT was perhaps written between 80 and 90 AD, would you say that God has been silent since then? Of course not. He has spoken to millions of people. Similarly, the Word of God was alive and functioning before the incarnation of Christ.

As far a biblical books written in the 400 years before Christ, scholars believe that the following books were written during these 400 years:

1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemia
Esther
Job
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Daniel
Jonah

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
Towards the end of the OT age, God spoke specifically that a time will come when he will NOT speak to Israel Amos 8:11-12. There is no reason to suggest this silence is a matter of weeks or months because such a short timescale would not have been special or worthy of mention.

What I am seeing is no more than arguments about when certain books were written. But no one has provided a passage of a direct commandment from God to anyone in Israel at this time. The Septuagint was written during this time between the Old and New Testaments with materials that had existed for hundreds of years.

Therefore, writing a book(s) in a certain period with materials God had given hundreds of years earlier, doesn't prove God spoke in 'real-time at the of writing. If you can give me one citation of direct instruction from God to anyone in Israel, I will apologise and shut up.

Your position is unreasonable because God never stays silent. Can you prove that God was silent during those 400 years and that He has been silent since the NT was completed?

My proof is that zero exists to prove that God spoke to anyone in Israel in that period. Since you are uncomfortable that God can choose to be silent (even as he expressly forewarned Amos 8:11-12), the onus is on you to prove me wrong by making a citation that contradicts my position. As aforementioned, I don't mean an argument about when a book(s) was written.

 

[Yekcidmij]

A number of non-traditionalist denominations such as SDAs, Baptists, most Presbyterian, all Methodists, evangelicals etc - do not accept the Apocrypha as "scripture" and so have an even wider "intertestimental period" then the approx. 100 year gap that the traditionalist admit to. That is fine with me because the non-traditionalist group are the ones I run into the most my area of the USA. So I am not bothered by being in what Christianity Today called the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - that sides with the evangelical groups in agreeing on the "wider gap" in intertestimental period.

I'm just going to note that thinking that the deuterocanonical books are non-canonical doesn't mean one has to ignore them or never read them or not consider them as historically and theologically significant to Jewish and New Testament history. Just read about the people waving palm branches when the Maccabees cleanse the temple.

Also, my ESV has the deuterocanonical books included.

 

[The Liturgist]

My proof is that zero exists to prove that God spoke to anyone in Israel in that period.

Considering that Esther, Ezra and Daniel were written during that period, that effectively means you have no proof whatsoever.

There is no reason to suggest this silence is a matter of weeks or months because such a short timescale would not have been special or worthy of mention.

That’s your opinion.

Indeed what bothers me about this line of argumentation of yours is that you are insisting on presenting your opinions as fact, and then seek to support these opinions-as-facts with historical falsehoods.

There are actually factual arguments you could employ, that most people who reject the deuterocanonical books do employ, but instead of using those, or just saying “This is my opinion,” you are instead using untenable arguments which are easily refuted and also accusing us of horrible things for rejecting these arguments (for example, when you accused me of suggesting that God lied).

I would note that no one else in this thread who takes the position that the deuterocanon is not scripture or that there exists an intertestamental period, nor any mainstream scholars who believe in the existence of an intertestamental period, even those who could be considered fundamentalist, such as the editors of the KJV Study Bible, are doing anything like this.

In other words, you don’t need to make the arguments you are making or insult us in order to prove your point, and furthermore, you shouldn’t, because the arguments you are making are both ahistorical and illogical, and also because insulting other people is not charitable, something the Holy Apostle Paul stresses the importance of in his epistles.

 

[Andrewn]

Towards the end of the OT age, God spoke specifically that a time will come when he will NOT speak to Israel Amos 8:11-12.

The book of Amos was written during the reign of Jeroboam II king of Israel/Samaria (790-750 BC). It criticizes social injustice and predicts the destruction of the kingdom, which would take place on the hands of the Assyrians in 722 BC. Among the predictions of destruction is the prophecy that there would be famine of the words of God, people were not going to find a leader to advise them on what to do or on what was to take place.

Note that Amos' prophecies are about the Kingdom of Israel, not Judah. And it has to do with God's silence during the coming ordeal or perhaps in the period from when Amos and Hosea finished their ministry to the destruction of Israel, which would be about 30 years.

What I am seeing is no more than arguments about when certain books were written. But no one has provided a passage of a direct commandment from God to anyone in Israel at this time. The Septuagint was written during this time between the Old and New Testaments with materials that had existed for hundreds of years.

I'm not talking about translating the Septuagint. The biblical books I listed in my previous message were actually written after 400 BC, according to scholars. They did not exist before 400 BC except as fragments and memoirs.

 

[Hawkins]

This again is not the case. The Jewish religion does not have that authority since the death of our Lord, and possibly for several years before that time, given a major theme in the New Testament concerns corruption of the Jewish leadership. This sentiment does not mean we should not be loving towards Jews, but the Christian religion is a completely different religion compared to modern Judaism, which in turn is very different from ancient Judaism (and indeed, if we look at the persecuted Christians of the Middle East, Ethiopia and India, they are in many places purely of Jewish descent).

What? Canonozation happened even before Jesus was born. It is believed that canonization actually began with King Hezekiah. That's why it is said that 17 books are sealed with the name of King Hezekiah. Later Judaism just followed what had been canonized long ago. They didn't canonized anything after the AD70 siege. Instead, they just re-picked up what have been laid before by the long-gone Pharisees.

Matt 23:
2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

The Pharisees on the other hand, are well authenticated to preach what they have.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is believed that canonization actually began with King Hezekiah.

Who believes that, aside from you? I am guessing that you do believe it.

 

[The Liturgist]

.

 

[Hawkins]

Who believes that, aside from you? I am guessing that you do believe it.

History need faith to believe. It is known to the Jews that H.X.X seal exists in 17 books. Ask the Jews about it, about the seal of King Hezekiah!

In the end, it is Josephus the Pharisee mentioned the 22 books, not me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

King Hezekiah!

In the end, it is Josephus the Pharisee mentioned the 22 books, not me.

I think there's about eight centuries of time between Hezekiah and Josephus.

 

[Erose]

What? Canonozation happened even before Jesus was born. It is believed that canonization actually began with King Hezekiah. That's why it is said that 17 books are sealed with the name of King Hezekiah. Later Judaism just followed what had been canonized long ago. They didn't canonized anything after the AD70 siege. Instead, they just re-picked up what have been laid before by the long-gone Pharisees.

Matt 23:
2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

The Pharisees on the other hand, are well authenticated to preach what they have.

The only evidence we have is that the only books universally accepted by all Jews and Samaritans was the Torah. The rest of the writings were still in dispute.

Again, we know that the Sadducees and Samaritans only accepted the Torah.
The Pharisees seemed to accept a 22 scroll canon, which there is much dispute about some of the writings, such as Lamentations, Baruch, Ep of Jeremiah (all or some of these are normally included in the Jeremiah Scroll) Esther, among some others.
The Essenes and Ethiopian Jews had much larger and diverse canons.
The Jews in Diaspora (who spoke Greek primarily) used primarily the LXX, and I believe pretty much any writing that was Jewish Religious literature. Jubilees being a popular one for example.

This is all from historical evidence that is pretty much irrefutable.

So again, there isn’t a clear cut canon of Jewish Sacred writings at the time of Jesus, and for that matter not even up to 400 years afterwards it seems.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not consider Joseph to be deserving of any veneration whatsoever since according to Origen, who I trust on the matter, and the early church, and the opinions of the majority of scholars, he is a first century Pharisee who rejected our Lord.

For this same reason I also question the partiality of his Antiquities of the Jews; from what I have read of it it seems prejudiced against Samaritans, Sadducees, Essenes, the Beta Israel, and other minority groups.

If an atheist witnesses a murder on 4th of July and testifies about it in a court of Law - we don't dismiss the testimony saying "but he was an atheist and did not like short people in his family". Recording a historic fact is not predicated on first being born-again.

 

[BobRyan]

Hawkins said: ↑
Yes. OT is a testimony of the Jews. The canonization belongs to them.

Indeed that was the historic fact at that time.

This again is not the case. The Jewish religion does not have that authority .

historic facts don't vanish just because the observer is not born-again.

 

[The Liturgist]

If an atheist witnesses a murder on 4th of July and testifies about it in a court of Law - we don't dismiss the testimony saying "but he was an atheist and did not like short people in his family". Recording a historic fact is not predicated on first being born-again.

Actually defense attorneys kind of specialize in that - impeaching the credibility of witnesses. For that matter police and prosecutors, not enjoying the stigma of a Perry Mason style outcome, use their own investigators, including police detectives and investigators who are may or may not be sworn officers who work for the district attorney or state attorney or procurator fiscal (as the office is called in Scotland and Latin countries) who investigate their own witnesses, except in the case of some countries in which judicial corruption due to ideology (such as the PRC or the former USSR) or finance (Latin America, Southeast Asia, Africa) can make such diligence superfluous.