Apocatastasis or Universal Reconciliation

[SavedSinner777]

Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki

I am a lapsed Eastern Orthodox Christian considering returning to the faith. If I were to do so, I would embrace the teaching of universal reconciliation. I refuse to believe that an all-loving God would send beings created in His image to eternal conscious torment for finite sins, with no chance of ultimate reconciliation. This doesn't mean that, in the afterlife, people will be converted against their will. But His love will ultimately penetrate and transform anyone willing to be open to it.

 

[rusmeister]

A lot of people walk into the church with their own ideas. To become Orthodox, you have to submit all of your ideas to the teaching of the church, and accept corrections on all of the ones that contradict your personal opinions. If you can’t do that, then you can make your own religion, but you’re not coming to corporate revealed truth of the living God. An Orthodox Christian is one who has plucked up the courage to admit that there is an Institution with a Person that its head that is wiser than he is. See my signatures below.
I think that on this particular idea, you will find that we are not to put limitations on what God can do. My opinion is that we are commanded to believe in the possibility of eternal damnation even if no one will be ultimately damned; This is the only way. We must live as if eternal damnation as possible for each of us, if for nothing else, for the simple reason that we would certainly abuse any knowledge of certain redemption no matter what we did. So in this world, in this life, you have to accept that possibility. Maybe we will find the particular joy that no one is ultimately damned. Maybe we won’t. We should listen carefully to the parable of the sheep and the goats. I think God leaves us our freedom to ultimately reject him if we are really determined to do so.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki

I am a lapsed Eastern Orthodox Christian considering returning to the faith. If I were to do so, I would embrace the teaching of universal reconciliation. I refuse to believe that an all-loving God would send beings created in His image to eternal conscious torment for finite sins, with no chance of ultimate reconciliation. This doesn't mean that, in the afterlife, people will be converted against their will. But His love will ultimately penetrate and transform anyone willing to be open to it.

what if not everyone is willing to be open to it?

 

[SavedSinner777]

what if not everyone is willing to be open to it?

The Orthodox philosophers and theologians who have taught universal reconciliation, as far as I know, did not teach that God converted them against their will.

 

[SavedSinner777]

A lot of people walk into the church with their own ideas. To become Orthodox, you have to submit all of your ideas to the teaching of the church, and accept corrections on all of the ones that contradict your personal opinions. If you can’t do that, then you can make your own religion, but you’re not coming to corporate revealed truth of the living God. An Orthodox Christian is one who has plucked up the courage to admit that there is an Institution with a Person that its head that is wiser than he is. See my signatures below.
I think that on this particular idea, you will find that we are not to put limitations on what God can do. My opinion is that we are commanded to believe in the possibility of eternal damnation even if no one will be ultimately damned; This is the only way. We must live as if eternal damnation as possible for each of us, if for nothing else, for the simple reason that we would certainly abuse any knowledge of certain redemption no matter what we did. So in this world, in this life, you have to accept that possibility. Maybe we will find the particular joy that no one is ultimately damned. Maybe we won’t. We should listen carefully to the parable of the sheep and the goats. I think God leaves us our freedom to ultimately reject him if we are really determined to do so.

I would not be entertaining the concept of universal reconciliation if there weren't Orthodox theologians and philosophers throughout history who taught it. Furthermore, none of its proponents, as far as I know, denied the possibility of eternal damnation for those in the afterlife who stubbornly reject God's love. At same point, eons and eons and eons and eons and eons in the future, God's love might just convert every soul in existence, but it's a hope rather than a certainty.

 

[SavedSinner777]

As far as I was taught, universal reconciliation is a theologoumenon, neither officially approved nor condemned as a concept.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Orthodox philosophers and theologians who have taught universal reconciliation, as far as I know, did not teach that God converted them against their will.

that wasn’t the question. the question is what about those who refuse to be open to God’s love?

 

[SavedSinner777]

that wasn’t the question. the question is what about those who refuse to be open to God’s love?

It's a mystery, like so many questions in Orthodox theology. Has an Orthodox priest or deacon ever told you that while Western Christianity seeks to strictly define every doctrine, Eastern Christianity leaves room for mystery?

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's a mystery, like so many questions in Orthodox theology. Has an Orthodox priest or deacon ever told you that while Western Christianity seeks to strictly define every doctrine, Eastern Christianity leaves room for mystery?

I am an Orthodox priest, and while there is room for mystery, some things have been defined.

so yes, I did especially in Seminary where I encountered many Orthodox priests and bishops.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe it is best to do our best to consider the commandments ( see Matthew 22:36-40 etc.), pray for all ( see 1 Timothy 2:1-6, Luke 18:1), consider only what we know God says about everlasting life ( John 5:22-30 etc.) and extend our sense of love, faith, hope etc. as best we can as and stand in awe of infinity of God ( see 1 Corinthians 13:12-13, Matthew 19:25-26 etc.).

 

[rusmeister]

I would not be entertaining the concept of universal reconciliation if there weren't Orthodox theologians and philosophers throughout history who taught it. Furthermore, none of its proponents, as far as I know, denied the possibility of eternal damnation for those in the afterlife who stubbornly reject God's love. At same point, eons and eons and eons and eons and eons in the future, God's love might just convert every soul in existence, but it's a hope rather than a certainty.

Throughout Church history, there have been Orthodox theologians and philosophers who have floated all kinds of ideas and taught them. However, we are not required to believe everything the teachers taught as individuals. But we are required to believe that which they collectively agreed in common; what is commonly called the consensus of the fathers, or the consensus of the Church.
And that consensus, as I understand it, is that we need to take the parable of the sheep and the goats seriously, and the possibility of eternal damnation as a definite possibility, whatever we may desire. That said, it is good to desire that all be saved. It’s just wrong to teach that they WILL be. You talk about room for mystery in the Church. Is there room for mystery on that question in your own heart?

 

[ArmyMatt]

But we are required to believe that which they collectively agreed in common; what is commonly called the consensus of the fathers, or the consensus of the Church.

yep, our opinion on what is Church dogma is irrelevant. Truth is Who He is.

 

[SavedSinner777]

As far as I was taught, universal reconciliation is a theologoumenon, neither officially approved nor condemned as a concept.

That said, it is good to desire that all be saved. It’s just wrong to teach that they WILL be.

As a theologoumenon, it's a hope rather than a certainty.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As a theologoumenon, it's a hope rather than a certainty.

it depends on what you mean by it. there certainly were versions condemned at the 5th Ecumenical Council, which was reaffirmed by the 6th and 7th.

 

[SavedSinner777]

it depends on what you mean by it. there certainly were versions condemned at the 5th Ecumenical Council, which was reaffirmed by the 6th and 7th.

Can you please share what precisely was condemned?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you please share what precisely was condemned?

that saying that all will be saved is heresy. as in there is no eternal punishment for those in hell is heretical.

 

[SavedSinner777]

that saying that all will be saved is heresy. as in there is no eternal punishment for those in hell is heretical.

That's as a certainty, rather than a hope, correct?

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's as a certainty, rather than a hope, correct?

correct

 

[Light of the East]

I would not be entertaining the concept of universal reconciliation if there weren't Orthodox theologians and philosophers throughout history who taught it. Furthermore, none of its proponents, as far as I know, denied the possibility of eternal damnation for those in the afterlife who stubbornly reject God's love. At same point, eons and eons and eons and eons and eons in the future, God's love might just convert every soul in existence, but it's a hope rather than a certainty.

And that is, according to what I have been taught by an Orthodox priest, is all we are allowed to do - to hope. We cannot make a dogma out of Universal Salvation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And that is, according to what I have been taught by an Orthodox priest, is all we are allowed to do - to hope. We cannot make a dogma out of Universal Salvation.

correct