BABerean2

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God grants initial salvation by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born apart from their works. But just as an infant after it is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if it is to remain alive, so a new believer after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a believer refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For believers must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, believers, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) does not mean that believers have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.



That brings to mind Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance. This doctrine unwittingly ends up logically requiring that saved people are robots. For if saved people cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy times seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).



We are initially saved now, but not yet ultimately saved.

That is, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the third day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Are you saying that Christ only paid for the sins I committed before I came to faith and then after that I have to work out my own salvation, through my works?

How much of my salvation depends on Christ and how much depends on me?

I do not believe OSAS.
A person cannot claim to be a Christian and then later become a Satan-worshipper and still expect salvation.


What if I forget to repent for one of my sins?
Does that mean I automatically lose my salvation?


Can you go a week without committing any sin at all?

.
 
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Bible2+

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BABerean2 said in post #81:

Are you saying that Christ only paid for the sins I committed before I came to faith . . .

No, for sins committed after coming to faith can also be forgiven. But only so long as they are repented from. For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians feel that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But note that the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.
 
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Revealing Times

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Are you saying that Christ only paid for the sins I committed before I came to faith and then after that I have to work out my own salvation, through my works?

How much of my salvation depends on Christ and how much depends on me?

I do not believe OSAS.
A person cannot claim to be a Christian and then later become a Satan-worshipper and still expect salvation.


What if I forget to repent for one of my sins?
Does that mean I automatically lose my salvation?


Can you go a week without committing any sin at all?

.
Its really simple. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

The point is, just because a man goes to church and says I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE, doesn't mean HE BELIEVES.

If a person truly BELIEVES he will have fruit to show for it. Just saying you believe, doesn't mean you do. If you believe in Christ, there should be FRUIT.

Meaning, no one is going to get to heaven by professing Jesus but serving Satan.
 
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Bible2+

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Revealing Times said in post #83:

If a person truly BELIEVES he will have fruit to show for it.

Not necessarily. For note that John 15:2a refers to truly saved people, who are branches in the vine of Jesus, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

Truly saved people can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not abiding in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or for wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
 
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