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Anything Positive???

Caylin

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First of all, it hasn't been proven that marriage is a right that should be granted by the state. Civil unions fall under the power of the state, not marriage. Marriage is a religious institution, not a legislative one. I'm not refusing to address the "fact" that there are many people who wish it to be legal to fire you for being gay. You have not established this as a fact yet, all you've done is simply say there people who wish to do this, you haven't proven it. So, your assertion is an unfounded statement and not a fact and does not need to be addressed by me. It's also irrelevant to this conversation.

I can understand why you don't want to explain why you chose to add the word "moral" to my statement. I know what "moral of the story" means, what I wanted you to do, and what you are unable to do, is explain how that usage of the word moral, fits in with my post, since you've seen fit to add it to my post. So we have you adding words and meanings to my post for no good reason and when you're asked to explain your actions, you tell me how you're not going to be an english teacher to me. Face it, you added something to a post without good reason and now you're resorting to trying to flame me because you can't defend you're pathetic actions.

If this is how you behave in the real world I can think of a very good reason why people would want to fire you and it has nothing to do with the fact that you're gay, it has to do with the fact that you do whatever you want, whenever you feel like it and when called on it, you cop an attitude and hide behind your homosexuality. I wouldn't want to work with you either.

Ok. Simple words. *You* had a big long post that boiled down to "life isn't fair." *I* said "so the moral of this story, is life isn't fair." You threw a fit over a turn of phrase and paraphrasing.

You want proof of people voting against GLBT rights? Every *single* time an employment non discrimination act is proposed it is fought tooth and nail. They also keep failing. Look up house bill 1515 in washington state. There was a huge storm of people complaining about it when it was proposed, and it failed to be passed into law. What were the motives behind the people who didn't want it passed? It sure wasn't good will and love.
 
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Zecryphon

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Ok. Simple words.

I understand all words, and your pathetic flame is noted.

*You* had a big long post that boiled down to "life isn't fair." *I* said "so the moral of this story, is life isn't fair." You threw a fit over a turn of phrase and paraphrasing.

That is not what my post boiled down to. That's one statement from a whole long post that you've chosen to focus upon. You responded in post # 34 with this:

I'm not saying they are deliberately oppressing people, but that is what happens.

So the moral is life isn't fair and I should just deal with being second class?


If my post boiled down to "life isn't fair", why are you talking about "deliberately oppressing people", in the first part of your reponse? Could it possibly be because, our conversation at that time was about a false motive you were projecting upon people, which is that people who vote against gay marriage do so simply to oppress other people. From post # 32:

Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You haven't answered the question that's been posed to you. Plus, it's not a fact that they're oppressing a minority by their actions. That's STILL an unfounded accusation from you about them.
To answer your question, I'm not projecting anything. The fact is, if you vote to deny rights to someone, you are oppressing them.

And nowhere in my post did I refer to you or anyone else as a second class citizen. But I'm not surprised you threw this in there. Atheists always cry that tune when talking to Christians on a Christian forum. This is just another figment of your imagination that you seem to want to project back onto me.

You want proof of people voting against GLBT rights?

How are we voting against GLBT rights when we vote against gay marriage? Not all GLBT's have that right yet.

Every *single* time an employment non discrimination act is proposed it is fought tooth and nail.

You mean those laws that are proposed that talk about hiring a quota of minority workers only? Like you have to have x number of Black workers in your office, or you're not hiring equally? Yeah those are fought tooth and nail because they are racist. You can't hire someone for a position based solely on the color of their skin, which is exactly what happened with the quotas. Lots of White people were denied jobs they were qualified for simply because they weren't the right color.

Look up house bill 1515 in washington state. There was a huge storm of people complaining about it when it was proposed, and it failed to be passed into law. What were the motives behind the people who didn't want it passed? It sure wasn't good will and love.

You seem to have run out of relevant material to post concerning this topic. If you want to debate House Bill 1515 in Washington State, start a thread about it.
 
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Caylin

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I understand all words, and your pathetic flame is noted.



That is not what my post boiled down to. That's one statement from a whole long post that you've chosen to focus upon. You responded in post # 34 with this:

I'm not saying they are deliberately oppressing people, but that is what happens.

So the moral is life isn't fair and I should just deal with being second class?


If my post boiled down to "life isn't fair", why are you talking about "deliberately oppressing people", in the first part of your reponse? Could it possibly be because, our conversation at that time was about a false motive you were projecting upon people, which is that people who vote against gay marriage do so simply to oppress other people. From post # 32:

Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You haven't answered the question that's been posed to you. Plus, it's not a fact that they're oppressing a minority by their actions. That's STILL an unfounded accusation from you about them.
To answer your question, I'm not projecting anything. The fact is, if you vote to deny rights to someone, you are oppressing them.

And nowhere in my post did I refer to you or anyone else as a second class citizen. But I'm not surprised you threw this in there. Atheists always cry that tune when talking to Christians on a Christian forum. This is just another figment of your imagination that you seem to want to project back onto me.



How are we voting against GLBT rights when we vote against gay marriage? Not all GLBT's have that right yet.



You mean those laws that are proposed that talk about hiring a quota of minority workers only? Like you have to have x number of Black workers in your office, or you're not hiring equally? Yeah those are fought tooth and nail because they are racist. You can't hire someone for a position based solely on the color of their skin, which is exactly what happened with the quotas. Lots of White people were denied jobs they were qualified for simply because they weren't the right color.



You seem to have run out of relevant material to post concerning this topic. If you want to debate House Bill 1515 in Washington State, start a thread about it.

That isn't what the laws state. The laws make it illegal to fire someone based on sexual orientation. There are already laws in place that make is illegal to fire someone based on religion or race. How is it *not* oppression to vote against laws that make it illegal to discriminate?

I also notice how you wanted me to provide evidence that people vote to oppress glbts and once I do, you throw a fit about how its not relevant.

I would *also* like to point out that I didn't say everyone who voted against GLBT rights were doing to to deliberatively oppress us, but I guess since you can't make me look as bad if you acknowledge that.
 
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Archer93

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Why do you make it sound like the only people with the power to vote are the Christians? Everyone, who is of legal age and status in this country can vote on this issue. People should always vote their conscience when they go to the polls. So if your conscience tells you that gay marriage, or whatever the issue is, is morally okay, then you should vote that way. What you should not do is make anyone feel guilty about voting a particular way, just because you disagree with their position. That's what I see going on here.

If one's conscience tells one to vote in a way that causes demonstrable harm to others but will not affect one either way, it might be time to re-examine one's conscience.

And the denial of same-sex marriage DOES cause us harm.
It is true that the reasons given for why we want same-sex marriage are not so much to do with love- the reason for that is that we do NOT need legal permission to be in love.
Gay people have been in love for millennia, often in the face of extream legal opposition. We've been falling in love and making commitments to each other even when the penalty for it was death- and if that doesn't kybosh the 'it's a choice' arguments I don't know what does.

What we want is the legal, secular recognition that our straight counterparts can take for granted. We are not trying to force religions to recognise us, we only want secular governments to recognise us.
We don't want to force churches to conduct ceremonies, we want the town hall to register us.
When we talk about same-sex marriage, we mean it in the strictly secular sense, not the religious sense.

Why should your religion have any say over what the law is?
 
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Zecryphon

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It's not oppression to vote against an issue that you're opposed to for whatever reason. You may interpret that action as oppression but that's just your personal interpretation and your personal interpretation is just that. It's not proof positive that people are actively seeking to oppress YOU. I guarantee that no one is thinking about YOU when they vote on an issue.The affirmative action movement resulted in laws that said you had to hire a certain amount of minority workers. Such laws are racist because they focus solely on the color of a person's skin.Telling you that a bill in Washington state is not relevant to this thread is not throwing a fit. It's simply making a statement. Why you have to paint your opponents in such a deliberate false light is beyond me. You're lying about others. How do you justify such blatant bad behavior?When you state on a Christian forum that you are involved with two women at the same time in a homosexual relationship and declare that you don't care that it's a sin, you don't need help from anybody else to look bad. You accomplish that all on your own. Stop lying about me, because you're coming across as a two-faced hypocrite. You complain about how all Christians do is lie about GLBT's. Well how is what you're doing any different? You're lying about a Christian who hasn't harmed you in any way, shape or form.
 
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Zecryphon

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My religion does not dictate the laws of the land, this isn't a theocracy. But people who are members of Christianity will vote according to their convictions and their consciences. These people should not be attacked for doing that, yet that's what I see happening. Christians aren't the only religious people to oppose same-sex marriage. You face opposition from Islam and Judaism as well. Are homosexuals as active in the Jewish and Islam forums as they are in the Christian forums? If not, why not?
 
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Archer93

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My religion does not dictate the laws of the land, this isn't a theocracy. But people who are members of Christianity will vote according to their convictions and their consciences. These people should not be attacked for doing that, yet that's what I see happening. Christians aren't the only religious people to oppose same-sex marriage. You face opposition from Islam and Judaism as well. Are homosexuals as active in the Jewish and Islam forums as they are in the Christian forums? If not, why not?

Not all Christians oppose same-sex marriage, nor do all Muslims or Jews.
And at a guess, a proportionate number of homosexuals are active on Islamic and Jewish boards.
Key word- proportionate, as, to the best of my knowledge, Christianity is the dominant religion in the US.
The US is indeed not a theocracy- it's not even a Christian country. But the Democrat candidate is on the receiving end of numerous rumours to the effect that he's actually a Muslim and as such is fundamentally unsuited to being the President.
It has been said on many other occasions that a non-Christian cannot be an effective politician simply because they are not Christian- there was that chap a while ago who did the photo-op swearing in image using a Koran because he was a Muslim. Remember the furore over that one?

The main movers and shakers who are actively opposing same-sex marriage, who are pushing for constitutional ammendments and similar, are generally referring to their interpretation of Christianity to support their arguments.
But any reference to marriage being a religious institution ignores the long history of non-religious marriage.
Again I say- we are not moving for churches to be forced to recognise same-sex marriage, we are only looking for the secular authorities to recognise it.
An attempt to use one's religious beliefs as the basis of law is to reject both the Constitution of the US and a number of NT verses.
To claim that you are not trying to make your beliefs law, only that you are voting in tune with your convictions based on your religious beliefs is disingenuous as you are voting in order to bring the law into line with your beliefs.

My point- for a secular country there are an awful lot of people who want to behave as if it's a theocracy.

Any comment regarding the circumstances in which you might want to review your conscience, given that it is doing harm to people without affecting you in any way?
 
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Zecryphon

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Everybody votes to bring the law into line with their beliefs. To say only Christians are doing that is disingenuous as well. Also, in those non-religious societies, how do they define a marriage? Don't they almost all recognize a marriage as being between a man and a woman? Getting away from religion will not ensure you an audience of people who will recognize a marriage as being between two people of the same sex. I know it's convenient for you guys to scapegoat Christians on this issue, but the fact is, we're not really the problem. All over the world marriage is understood to be an institution of a man and a woman.
 
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KCKID

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All over the world marriage is understood to be an institution of a man and a woman.

So what? Why are people so afraid of change? These days there are male/male, female/female marriages. Why should you care? Just because the Bible doesn't mention it? Does it affect you personally? Is it REALLY going to negatively affect 'life as we know it'? In time same-gender marriage may well become common place and therefore 'normal'.

Kids used to be afraid of the 'boogey man'. These days Christian adults ARE afraid of the 'boogey man'! (At this point imagine the 'Twilight Zone' theme music) :)
 
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Zecryphon

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So what? Why are people so afraid of change?

Why do you assume that anyone who says that marriage is between a man and a woman only and that this is the standard that is recognized around the world, is afraid of change? Why are you so afraid of a marriage being between a man and a woman only? Why do you feel the need to change what God has already declared?

These days there are male/male, female/female marriages.

No there aren't. There are male/male and female/female unions. They are not marriages.

Why should you care?

I care because as a servant of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit, I am committed to upholding their revelation of truth. And the truth is that homosexuals are trying to change what has been instituted to fit their own needs, not only to justify their sin but to then use that union to reap benefits from the state. There are other ways to get legal protections from the state, you don't need to attack the institution of marriage.

Just because the Bible doesn't mention it? Does it affect you personally?

People who pervert and twist the clear teaching of scripture affects me because they are attempting to change the teachings of the Christian faith. As a Christian that affects me personally. More importantly it affects God. Their attempts to say that scripture doesn't say what it clearly says, tries to make God look like a liar.

Is it REALLY going to negatively affect 'life as we know it'? In time same-gender marriage may well become common place and therefore 'normal'.

Why is it always about YOU? Is it ever about God and what He has declared is good, with you? Could you be any more self-centered? Is that at all possible?

Kids used to be afraid of the 'boogey man'. These days Christian adults ARE afraid of the 'boogey man'!
(At this point imagine the 'Twilight Zone' theme music) :)

Christian adults are afraid of a man who is going to come to their house in the middle of the night, throw them into his sack, take them away from their parents and throw them into the river and drown them? If this is what you truly believe, because that is the tale surrounding the boogey man, then I have no problem with the Twilight Zone music being introduced at this point.
 
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OllieFranz

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Christian adults are afraid of a man who is going to come to their house in the middle of the night, throw them into his sack, take them away from their parents and throw them into the river and drown them? If this is what you truly believe, because that is the tale surrounding the boogey man, then I have no problem with the Twilight Zone music being introduced at this point.

Maybe not throw them in the river and drown them, but they certainly act as though they are afraid that a man will break into their house in the middle of the night, throw them in a sack, take them away from their wives and children, and force them into a gay marriage. So maybe instead of the Boogey (from "boggy") Man, we should call their monster under the bed the Faagey Man.
 
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Zecryphon

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Maybe not throw them in the river and drown them, but they certainly act as though they are afraid that a man will break into their house in the middle of the night, throw them in a sack, take them away from their wives and children, and force them into a gay marriage.

You are seriuosly deluded if you believe this.

So maybe instead of the Boogey (from "boggy") Man, we should call their monster under the bed the Faagey Man.

Oh that's really Christian behavior there, Ollie. Yeah, it's really the conservatives that are the gay-bashers. NOT!
 
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OllieFranz

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You are seriuosly deluded if you believe this.

I did not say I believe this. I did not even say that many "Conservative Christians" actually believe it (though I do wonder about some). I just said that they act as though they believe it, hysterically decrying how the "gay agenda" is out to destroy marriage (and all of civilization as we know it).

Oh that's really Christian behavior there, Ollie. Yeah, it's really the conservatives that are the gay-bashers. NOT!
 
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Archer93

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Everybody votes to bring the law into line with their beliefs. To say only Christians are doing that is disingenuous as well. Also, in those non-religious societies, how do they define a marriage? Don't they almost all recognize a marriage as being between a man and a woman? Getting away from religion will not ensure you an audience of people who will recognize a marriage as being between two people of the same sex. I know it's convenient for you guys to scapegoat Christians on this issue, but the fact is, we're not really the problem. All over the world marriage is understood to be an institution of a man and a woman.

Very true, people do vote in accordance with their beliefs. I vote in accordance with my beliefs regarding taxation, healthcare, education, foreign policy and same-sex marriage. Happily for me, my religion does not have a party line for me to consider when I do so, but even if it did I would have to have a very good reason for infliciting my religion's party line on to people who do not subscribe to my religion.

I think that a large part of the problem with this debate is that we're using the same words but have different meanings for them.

So- 'belief' can mean 'religious belief' based on one's understanding of one's religious text, i.e. the Bible, or it can mean 'political belief', i.e. how one tends to vote, based on one's understanding of the world around one.
These two types of belief can overlap, as can the conclusions reached.
There is a religious reason for saying that murder is wrong, there is also a political reason for saying the same thing.
I can see why you believe there is a religious reason to vote against same-sex marriage, I do not see why you think there is a political reason to do so.

And there's the other word that we're tripping up over- 'marriage'
That also has a religious meaning and a secular one.
In terms of religion, a marriage is the spiritual joining together of two people via a religious ceremony.
In secular terms, it's a contract of commitment between two people that gives them certain rights and responsibilities towards each other.
Again, these two definitions can overlap- in Britain a Church of England marriage ceremony automatically includes the secular contract; but Hindu, Muslim, Jewish etc marriage ceremonies don't. Those couples have to do the secular component as well, but that is generally got round by the officient being a registrar as well who can register the secular component at the same time.

I'm afraid your claim that "All over the world marriage is understood to be an institution of a man and a woman." is simply not true.
Polygamy is and has been a very common model for marriage, polyandry is much rarer but still exists.
And there have been a number of examples of same-sex unions, several of which come under the religious definition of marriage, in history-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions
An appeal to tradition simply doesn't work here.
And to say that most people believe that marriage, religious or secular, is and has always been between one man and one woman is little more than an appeal to ignorance, and is an even weaker position.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that same sex marriage has never been a part of Christianity. Let's say that none of the current dominant religions have ever acknowledged same-sex marriage.
What has that to do with secular law? I for one am not fighting for religions to be forced to recognise same-sex marriages, only for the secular version to be introduced and recognised legally.

Saying 'my religion says this, therefor it should be law and I shall vote accordingly' means that you are using your religious beliefs as the basis of an attempt to dictate secular law in contravention of the Constitution of the US which states that no law shall be made in respect of the establishment of a state religion (please someone, if I've got this wrong do correct me).
Do you feel that this is a tenable position both legally and morally?
 
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Zecryphon

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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that same sex marriage has never been a part of Christianity. Let's say that none of the current dominant religions have ever acknowledged same-sex marriage.
What has that to do with secular law? I for one am not fighting for religions to be forced to recognise same-sex marriages, only for the secular version to be introduced and recognised legally.

It has to do with secular law because people of faith vote and they will probably vote in accordance with their beliefs.

Saying 'my religion says this, therefor it should be law and I shall vote accordingly' means that you are using your religious beliefs as the basis of an attempt to dictate secular law in contravention of the Constitution of the US which states that no law shall be made in respect of the establishment of a state religion (please someone, if I've got this wrong do correct me).

You are wrong, because that amendment states that the government shall not pass a law creating a state religion. The people, who are members of various faiths can vote on the issue of gay marriage, and can vote how they feel is right based upon what their religion teaches, because we have freedom of religion in this country, not freedom from religion. Just because the outcome of such a vote by religious people will most likely be against gay marriage is no reason to say that people of faith can not vote their faith or to attack them for doing so by saying they are imposing their religious views on others.

Do you feel that this is a tenable position both legally and morally?

People have the freedom to practice their religion, even in the voting booth.
 
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ChaliceThunder

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You and I have equal rights. You can marry any woman that agrees to marry you, just like me. I can’t marry a man, and neither can you. See, we have equal rights. You don’t want equal rights, you already have those. You want additional rights that you don’t already have, and neither does any one else.

A flaming bag of poo should arrive on one's doorstep each and every time one employs this silly (and fatally flawed) argument.:cool:
 
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