Anyone want to discuss KJVO ?

[GenemZ]

Predestination is illogical due to believing in you are.
To make a choice to believe we are saved by grace alone,leaves out those who never come to the knowledge of Christ.
The ideology of predestination is a logical fallacy.
The Theologians in order to reconcile this problem,simply say God chooses who to offer Grace to,with the foreknowledge they will accept it.
This places God with ambiguous motives.
God therefore would have purposed all things.
This would have made the need for Christ to be our sacrifice pointless.

Don't confuse hyper-Calvinism for all theology concerning predestination. That is what you are doing. What we have been predestined for is much more balanced and rational.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world
to be holy and blameless in his sight." Eph 1:4​

That does not mean God arbitrarily chose who will believe. Years ago some theologians jumped to that conclusion, and then pushed it on believers to the point they were not allowed to think, only accept.

I will try to explain what Ephesians 1:4 tells us, if you want me to.

grace and peace.......

 

[GenemZ]

Verse 10 can be misunderstood.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This simply states who we are in Christ,and God preordained that upon,Salvation we should walk in the righteousness that Christ gave on Calvary.

Not quite... It means God has prepared for you certain specific works he wants you to do in grace and truth (walk in righteousness). Like how God prepared a work for Abraham. That Abraham would offer Isaac. Abraham did not refuse the work, and God was glorified by Abraham's trust and faith in God.

 

[now faith]

Sorry... you are just repeating things .... Not things that the Bible teaches. "unmerited favor" sounds nice and good. But, what does the Bible tell us? That's what counts.

Grace made us able to have faith.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65
​

For, God must enable us before we can think with faith. Grace is God's enabling.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph 2:8​

Grace saves us. Faith manifested is the proof that it has.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65​

Grace enables us. Grace is invisible power granted to us by means of the Holy Spirit, causing us to stop malfunctioning as a fallen man would, and to function as God desires us to be.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9
​

Read that? See what it says? Grace = Christ's power!

Now.. that's what the Bible teaches.

Men make up find sounding things often times to please their hearers as they neglect the needed study to be a workman needing not to be ashamed.

Now, if grace is unmerited favor? Please provide Scripture to show how that is so.

grace and peace.......

Once again you are stating that God provides the Faith for Salvation.
We Know the Holy Sprit draws us to Christ.
The flaw is either all have Salvation,or God is selective.
Since God is no respctor of Persons then all are saved no matter what they believe.
One thing though without Faith it is impossible to Please God.
Therefore Faith is conditional on the believers part.
The whosoever beliveth on Him in John 3 vs16 as well is a term that involves choice.
In Hebrews 11 the definition of faith is clear,it does not say it is given to man without choice.

Anyway I think I understand your thoughts,and they are fine by me
God Bless

 

[GenemZ]

Once again you are stating that God provides the Faith for Salvation.

Do you begin to understand how that is done?

How we are given faith?

He gives us the Gospel while we are under the influence of His Grace. Grace to enable us to hear the Word of God without our sin nature plugging our ears .

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message,
and the message is heard through the word about Christ." Rom 10:17​

 

[FredVB]

King James Bible is a translation. It is a good translation as far as I see, but no less a translation than other translations. I see things that must be copied mistakes in it. It is not that other translations do not have that. But if KJV was the only divinely sourced word of God, necessarily inerrant then, why are those evident mistakes that I see from copying in it then? They would not be, but they are there.

Sorry... you are just repeating things .... Not things that the Bible teaches. "unmerited favor" sounds nice and good. But, what does the Bible tell us? That's what counts.

Grace made us able to have faith.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65
​

For, God must enable us before we can think with faith. Grace is God's enabling.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph 2:8​

Grace saves us. Faith manifested is the proof that it has.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65​

Grace enables us. Grace is invisible power granted to us by means of the Holy Spirit, causing us to stop malfunctioning as a fallen man would, and to function as God desires us to be.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Read that? See what it says? Grace = Christ's power!

Now.. that's what the Bible teaches.

Men make up find sounding things often times to please their hearers as they neglect the needed study to be a workman needing not to be ashamed.

Now, if grace is unmerited favor? Please provide Scripture to show how that is so.

grace and peace.......

Grace is unmerited favor. Where is it scripture that grace is enabling power? God does enable us. People come to faith with that. They don't have to. But God has grace toward us, not that grace is a power. There will be realization that salvation in Christ will be desirable, and with that people can respond with faith which is needed, that with repentance.

Faith is not a work, nor is response with faith. It does not accomplish anything, it can't accomplish anything. We are made for good works, but we only come to that because it is God's work saving us, God is not selective for who is saved and who is damned, God is not wiling that any will perish, God will work for the salvation of those responding with faith, with the repentance included, which is not work and does not accomplish anything, because that is what is important to God from us.

 

[robycop3]

The KJVO myth is entirely man-made. It has no Scriptural support, a fact that automatically makes it false. While there's nothing wrong with using only the KJV or any other one valid version only, there are quite a few valid English Bible translations, old & new. GOD IS NOT LIMITED in how He can present His word to people.

 

[GenemZ]

Grace is unmerited favor.

"Unmerited favor"...

That is a commonly held definition in some circles. One that people are told "and then repeat" without proving all things with Scripture. Why? Because its a feel-good definition, and the hearers like how their emotions feel when hearing it. Its like when some are told Mary is the mother of God. It makes them feel good to hear it But, what does the Scriptures teach?

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Please look! ... Read it again. Grace = God's power.

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9


​

The power God provides the maturing believer is His Grace . God's grace is enabling that believer to become what God wants that believer to become. It is merited because its God's will for the believer's life who can not be what God wants you to become unless he enables you to become it! Become what? Become a believer who's life will merit his favor. A believer who has transformed and matured into someone God can bless!

God does not bless someone who is not being the what God desires that believer to be. We do not have the power (ability) to be what God desires of us. God's grace supplies our every need to become what God desires us to be.

​

grace and peace.......​

​

 

[Strong in Him]

"Unmerited favor"...

That is a commonly held definition in some circles. One that people are told "and then repeat" without proving all things with Scripture. Why? Because its a feel-good definition, and the hearers like how their emotions feel when hearing it. Its like when some are told Mary is the mother of God. It makes them feel good to hear it But, what does the Scriptures teach?

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Please look! ... Read it again. Grace = God's power.

​

It doesn't say that grace is the same as power.
"My grace is sufficient for you, FOR (because) my power is made perfect in weakness."

When someone is weak, then God's power, or strength, can be seen - since the person has little of their own. Power = the same power that healed the blind, made the lame walk, drove out demons and raised people, including Jesus, from the dead.
Think how much power there is in a defibrillator; used to restart someone's heart. Then think how much more power you would need to raise someone who had been dead for 3 days. THAT is God's power. He gave Paul the power, (strength) to endure beatings, persecution, rejection, illness and imprisonment in his life. Paul could easily have said "this is all too hard, I can't do it" - but he was given the strength to endure.

Grace is something else entirely.
It has been aid that Grace stands for;
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense.

In other words, we deserve nothing from God except death and punishment for our sin. It is possible, however, to be forgiven, receive eternal life, be God's child and have every spiritual blessing possible - because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. We can now have what we don't deserve, and we don't have to suffer what we do deserve.

 

[GenemZ]

It doesn't say that grace is the same as power.
"My grace is sufficient for you, FOR (because) my power is made perfect in weakness."

When someone is weak, then God's power, or strength, can be seen - since the person has little of their own. Power = the same power that healed the blind, made the lame walk, drove out demons and raised people, including Jesus, from the dead.
Think how much power there is in a defibrillator; used to restart someone's heart. Then think how much more power you would need to raise someone who had been dead for 3 days. THAT is God's power. He gave Paul the power, (strength) to endure beatings, persecution, rejection, illness and imprisonment in his life. Paul could easily have said "this is all too hard, I can't do it" - but he was given the strength to endure.

Grace is something else entirely.
It has been aid that Grace stands for;
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense.

In other words, we deserve nothing from God except death and punishment for our sin. It is possible, however, to be forgiven, receive eternal life, be God's child and have every spiritual blessing possible - because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. We can now have what we don't deserve, and we don't have to suffer what we do deserve.

Sorry... you are basing what you believe on feel-good subjectivity. Not, the Word of God. It must be based upon the Word of God. Not some "emotion stimulating" invention of men.

And... ironically.... I am powerless to make you see it. For its you who need the enabling power of grace to do so.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly​

about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

​

​

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them-
- yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." 1 Cor 15:10​

Others will read, comprehend, and believe.

 

[FredVB]

"Unmerited favor"...

That is a commonly held definition in some circles. One that people are told "and then repeat" without proving all things with Scripture. Why? Because its a feel-good definition, and the hearers like how their emotions feel when hearing it. Its like when some are told Mary is the mother of God. It makes them feel good to hear it But, what does the Scriptures teach?

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Please look! ... Read it again. Grace = God's power.

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9
​

The power God provides the maturing believer is His Grace . God's grace is enabling that believer to become what God wants that believer to become. It is merited because its God's will for the believer's life who can not be what God wants you to become unless he enables you to become it! Become what? Become a believer who's life will merit his favor. A believer who has transformed and matured into someone God can bless!

God does not bless someone who is not being the what God desires that believer to be. We do not have the power (ability) to be what God desires of us. God's grace supplies our every need to become what God desires us to be.

You have not proved anything, with your repetition of what you feel right about. What one singular passage you have for showing still does not show that grace = God's power. God's grace is sufficient, for God's power is made perfect in weakness. Because of that, because of. Not anything about grace equaling power. Read through Romans yourself, the book in the Bible speaking the most of God's grace.

χάριν χάρις charis

Strong's Number: g5485 Greek: charis

Benefit, Benefactor:
"grace," is once rendered "benefit," 2Cr 1:15; it stresses the character of the "benefit," as the effect of the gracious disposition of the benefactor.

Romans 4:4

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Romans 5:2

through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:15

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Romans 5:17

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Romans 5:21

so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 11:5

Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

It is God's grace that Jesus Christ the incarnate Logos, Word of God with God who is God, came to live among for us, for us to have the way following him, to suffer, and to die, for us. We don't deserve that, no matter what we do. But that is God's grace.

 

[GenemZ]

You have not proved anything, with your repetition of what you feel right about. What one singular passage you have for showing still does not show that grace = God's power. God's grace is sufficient, for God's power is made perfect in weakness. Because of that, because of. Not anything about grace equaling power. Read through Romans yourself, the book in the Bible speaking the most of God's grace.

χάριν χάρις charis

Strong's Number: g5485 Greek: charis

Benefit, Benefactor:
"grace," is once rendered "benefit," 2Cr 1:15; it stresses the character of the "benefit," as the effect of the gracious disposition of the benefactor.

Romans 4:4

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Romans 5:2

through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:15

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Romans 5:17

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Romans 5:21

so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 11:5

Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

It is God's grace that Jesus Christ the incarnate Logos, Word of God with God who is God, came to live among for us, for us to have the way following him, to suffer, and to die, for us. We don't deserve that, no matter what we do. But that is God's grace.

When I was a baby Christian I was told that grace is God's unmerited favor. I accepted it and thought not much about. Ten I was taught God's Word in detail and depth. I no longer thought like a child. Just like Paul said to the Corinthians to stop thinking like children.

Now....

I showed you plainly how Paul correlated God's power with being His grace. I think I showed you at least two times. Maybe three.

You are powerless to grasp what I have been saying. Its not academic learning. Its learning that takes on a capacity for life as one experiences from eating healthy and nourishing foods. As in the bread of life... meat of the word.

Its a memorization course we are taking. There is no written test. Its a LIVING test. You're not ready.

 

[robycop3]

Ladies & Gentlemen, may we get back to discussing KJVO ?

 

[GenemZ]

Ladies & Gentlemen, may we get back to discussing KJVO ?

What more is there to discuss about the KJVO at this point?

My pastor was a Greek and Hebrew scholar. Graduated Dallas Theological Seminary under Lewis Sperry Chafer. He always began his lessons reading from the King James. Then, he took the time to show us what was being said in the original languages. The KJV was found misleading or too weak once too often for comfort. After that? Then we needed to acquire and hit reference books to verify what he showed us. After a few years of verifying (proving all things) one could learn to finally relax and trust his integrity and desire for Truth.

The King James does certain things very well. But, on too many occasions because of its archaic wording and anachronisms, one learns that, as with almost all English translations, that English translations are one dimensional maps, where three dimensional mapping is what we need to understand how things were said at the time of writing.

Many details are lost in 99% of the English translations, of which the KJV was no exception. To debate it beyond a certain point, is to point believers in a wrong direction. For, if one truly seeks and wants to understand the Bible in depth and with solid substance to think with? You will need to find a qualified pastor-teacher who is able to render the Bible from the original languages.

All you would need would be to expose yourself to this kind of teaching for several months ... and, if its for you? You could never go back to the nutrient deficient food one used to take in. Yes. Its that bad at times in comparison to sound exegesis.

Very few are capable to teach in this manner (James 3:1). Many believers will not tolerate sound doctrine and will seek what they naturally want to hear.. That's what the Bible tells us in 2 Timothy 4:3. So, for them? The KJV will do fine, because the vague wording allows for subjective speculations that can be emotionally stimulating for those who love the high sounding king's English.

How much truth do we really want to understand (and become responsible for) in the invisible spiritual warfare we find ourselves? With its pressures that come with real growth? That issue causes many only to seek only "so much".. and go no further. They do not like the pressure that comes with forging ahead to the goal.... Full maturity in Christ.

grace and peace........

 

[FredVB]

God's grace is sufficient, for God's power is made perfect in weakness. Because of that, because of. Not anything about grace equaling power. Read through Romans, the book in the Bible speaking the most of God's grace.

χάριν χάρις charis

Strong's Number: g5485 Greek: charis

Benefit, Benefactor:
"grace," is once rendered "benefit," 2Cr 1:15; it stresses the character of the "benefit," as the effect of the gracious disposition of the benefactor.

Romans 4:4

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Romans 5:2

through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:15

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Romans 5:17

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Romans 5:21

so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 11:5

Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

It is God's grace that Jesus Christ the incarnate Logos, Word of God with God who is God, came to live among for us, for us to have the way following him, to suffer, and to die, for us. We don't deserve that, no matter what we do. But that is God's grace.

When I was a baby Christian I was told that grace is God's unmerited favor. I accepted it and thought not much about. Ten I was taught God's Word in detail and depth. I no longer thought like a child. Just like Paul said to the Corinthians to stop thinking like children.

Now....

I showed you plainly how Paul correlated God's power with being His grace. I think I showed you at least two times. Maybe three.

You are powerless to grasp what I have been saying. Its not academic learning. Its learning that takes on a capacity for life as one experiences from eating healthy and nourishing foods. As in the bread of life... meat of the word.

Its a memorization course we are taking. There is no written test. Its a LIVING test. You're not ready.

The arrogant do not have a monopoly they claim on the truth. Furthermore it is not known by others what my spiritual age is.

What you claim to have shown plainly is one singular verse, that does not even itself equate God's grace to us. It is shown that God's grace to us is sufficient because God's power is made perfect, or, in other words, made perfectly known, in our weakness. It is not merely me, who you claim to be spiritually immature, and not ready, for truth you presume and claim to have achieved, you are disagreeing with various recognized Bible expositors, and the deduced meaning of "charis", grace, which we have from God, according to its known use, especially in the Bible. By defining it as power instead you rob the meaning of the other verses which have grace mentioned, certainly so where the original word is translated to english as benefit.

Is the KJV the only Bible translation God specially meant for those of us who speak english? Nothing in the Bible gives basis for that claim. There are faults and certain cases of inadequate translation in it, just as there are in other translations, but none are so meaningful to make them not good translations to use, and have all the needed benefit to our lives from God's word.

 

[Der Alte]

Ladies & Gentlemen, may we get back to discussing KJVO ?

The KJV is the version I heard when I was child in Sunday School. I attended my first SS class when FDR was president but I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s when LBJ was president. I heard and read the KJV until the late 70s when I felt called into the ministry so I do have a certain fondness for the KJV.
But I have served in Korean churches for about 40 years, the KJV is almost unintelligible to people whose native language is not English so when I teach and preach I use a modern version mostly the NIV.

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry... you are basing what you believe on feel-good subjectivity. Not, the Word of God. It must be based upon the Word of God. Not some "emotion stimulating" invention of men.

And... ironically.... I am powerless to make you see it. For its you who need the enabling power of grace to do so.

Sorry, I know this is off topic but I wanted to respond.

It's nothing to do with "feel good".
Grace and power are two different words with different meanings. If "Grace" is the same as power, then Paul told the Ephesians that it was by power they had been saved, and prayed that the power of the Lord Jesus would be with the Corinthians. Acts of the Apostles 6:8 would say, "now Stephen, a man full of God's power and power" - which makes little sense.

It's not about Scripture; it's English.
But it should be discussed properly in a new thread.

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry, I know this is off topic but I wanted to respond.

It's nothing to do with "feel good".
Grace and power are two different words with different meanings. If "Grace" is the same as power, then Paul told the Ephesians that it was by power they had been saved, and prayed that the power of the Lord Jesus would be with the Corinthians. Acts of the Apostles 6:8 would say, "now Stephen, a man full of God's power and power" - which makes little sense.

It's not about Scripture; it's English.
But it should be discussed properly in a new thread.

Grace is power... but not all power is grace.

Grace is God's enabling power to make us (progressively) to become as He would want us to be if we were not fallen. Controlled by the Spirit = grace.

When we walk in grace and truth we become manifested as the "new man."

You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off
the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on
the new man which was created according to God, in true
righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-24​

 

[Strong in Him]

Grace is power... but not all power is grace.

If you say so.

 

[GenemZ]

If you say so.

My name is GeneZ. Its not Paul.

I did not say so. Paul said it.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me."
2 Cor 12:9

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them-
- yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1 Cor 15:10​

Paul said it.

(said it, by the grace of God) ......

 

[pescador]

I must be in the wrong thread. The topic is supposed to be "anyone want to discuss KJVO", yet y'all are discussing power vs grace.