Anyone want to discuss KJVO ?

[robycop3]

Side by side comparisons, will give you enough fuel for thought.
The deletions from modern texts are biased toward Christ being fully God.
It takes a lot of time to put this together and I don't have it.
I will post a link give it a look with a open mind.
I'm not SDA,but Walter Vieth is a great teacher.

Were you there when the ancient Scriptural mss. were written? Do you know who wrote them, when or where? Do you know what sources their writers used ? I don't, so I have no authority to question their authenticity, as GOD preserved ALL of them.

And have you ever considered that the KJV has ADDED material? A clear example is the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16.5. Please show us any ancient Scriptural ms. of Rev that contains those words in that verse.

 

[now faith]

Were you there when the ancient Scriptural mss. were written? Do you know who wrote them, when or where? Do you know what sources their writers used ? I don't, so I have no authority to question their authenticity, as GOD preserved ALL of them.

And have you ever considered that the KJV has ADDED material? A clear example is the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16.5. Please show us any ancient Scriptural ms. of Rev that contains those words in that verse.

I do not have to be there,God is Omnipresent.
Read the Cat in the Hat if you desire.
I'm King James Only,but I do not force my choice on you.
There is nothing good about these Debates.
That is why I shared Walter Vieth and His library of teaching about Bibles.

 

[Strong in Him]

Side by side comparisons, will give you enough fuel for thought.
The deletions from modern texts are biased toward Christ being fully God.
It takes a lot of time to put this together and I don't have it.

The problem is that people compare modern versions with the KJV and if they differ, say, "there you are; they're wrong". Their starting point is that the KJV is the perfect translation, so any Bibles that are different from the KJV have to be at fault because the KJV never can be.
What should be happening is that the KJV, NIV, RSV, GNB etc are ALL compared with the Greek. Then we could see which Bibles, if any, had added verses, and which had omitted them.

So far I've never seen anyone who is prepared to compare the KJV, NIV etc in this way.
Neither have I seen many statements like, "the KJV used these documents for its translation, the NIV used these; of the two, these are the most accurate". Or "the KJV did a great job with the material that it had, but these manuscript have been discovered since then - so maybe the RSV/ESV is the more accurate translation."
Even if such information IS given, it is most likely that a KJVO person will dismiss it as an attack on "their" Bible and cherished belief.

Again, read the KJV by all means - read only the KJV if you like; no problem.
The problem is when anyone insists that the KJV ONLY is the word of God and that other Bibles are corrupt.
This statement doesn't even make sense - it has been conceded that the Gospel is the same in all versions, salvation is the same and we have the same Holy Spirit. Is it likely that the Spirit of truth would inspire a corrupt version of God's word to be made?

 

[Strong in Him]

There is nothing good about these Debates.

If someone sincerely believes that translations like the NIV are "corrupt" and wants to save people from reading them because they are bad news, they may be interested in a serious discussion about why that is not the case.
But most of the time you're right; people, on both sides, can get defensive when their favourite translation is attacked or said to be untruthful - and I include myself in that.

 

[robycop3]

Sportzz Fanzz, remember, the KJVO myth is one of the many "cancers" that Satan has injected into Christianity, trying to "infect" it. And remember, 'cancer' is Latin for 'crab'. The KJVO, crab-like, tries to reach out & grab people and infect them with nonsense. It's one of Satan's many attacks upon God's word by casting doubt upon many newer translations of Scripture, and also on the KJV itself, by associating it with idiots who deny the salvation of Freedom Readers.

If one wishes to use only the KJV or any other one valid version, fine, but the idea that the KJV or any other one version is the only valid one, is garbage.

 

[now faith]

Sportzz Fanzz, remember, the KJVO myth is one of the many "cancers" that Satan has injected into Christianity, trying to "infect" it. And remember, 'cancer' is Latin for 'crab'. The KJVO, crab-like, tries to reach out & grab people and infect them with nonsense. It's one of Satan's many attacks upon God's word by casting doubt upon many newer translations of Scripture, and also on the KJV itself, by associating it with idiots who deny the salvation of Freedom Readers.

If one wishes to use only the KJV or any other one valid version, fine, but the idea that the KJV or any other one version is the only valid one, is garbage.

The King James was primarily Translated for English speaking People.
I do not question anyone's salvation,I am not the qualified to do so.
I will ask a question :
What is the definition of Open Theism ?

 

[robycop3]

The King James was primarily Translated for English speaking People.
I do not question anyone's salvation,I am not the qualified to do so.
I will ask a question :
What is the definition of Open Theism ?

Open theism is the doctrine that God has granted man free will, and, while he has pre-ordained many things & set dates for them, He has left others open to the actions of men, & acts accordingly.

 

[GenemZ]

I believe KJVO is not a true doctrine, as it has no Scriptural support, even in the KJV itself. Anyone wanna try to defend KJVO ?

This teacher proved over and over again that KJV Only can not be a true doctrine.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

He has at times said that he would have flunked some of the translators who totally botched up the intent. And, then proceeded to show why. All of a sudden, certain passages now made sense where before they were a source of total confusion and contention.

No.. I do not believe he was perfect. Just perfect for what we need to know.

grace and peace...

 

[GenemZ]

Open theism is the doctrine that God has granted man free will, and, while he has pre-ordained many things & set dates for them, He has left others open to the actions of men, & acts accordingly.

God grants His power of grace to enable man to have free will. For, without grace fallen man's sin nature would oppress his will and would render man unable to choose for God.

God's power of his grace suppresses man's sin nature at moments God wants a man to make up his mind about an essential matter. Just like now the Holy Spirit will suppress our sin nature when we choose for doing God's will (walking in the Spirit). Men will choose either for, or against. Yes, even without a sin nature in control man can choose to do wrong. After all.. Lucifer and his angels were yet unfallen while they were deciding to reject God's will. Adam took the fruit while yet not fallen.

Without Grace fallen man could not have a free will when it comes to things pertaining to God. That is why it says we have been saved by grace - through faith. For, no one could accept faith unless grace suppressed our sin nature when the faith was presented to us. And? Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Grace must be present for us to become saved. Yet, still free to reject if we so desire to. For grace truly makes us free for the time grace is applied to us. Lucifer was at one time free. Adam also was free. Adam fell from a free state into slavery.

 

[now faith]

Open theism is the doctrine that God has granted man free will, and, while he has pre-ordained many things & set dates for them, He has left others open to the actions of men, & acts accordingly.

So you believe Open Theism is a bridge between Calvinism, and Arminism?
As a Baptist what would your leaning be in theological terms?

Not a trick or debate question, I am hoping to better understand the passionate views that motivate why people on both sides are generally agressive.

 

[GenemZ]

Open theism is the doctrine that God has granted man free will, and, while he has pre-ordained many things & set dates for them, He has left others open to the actions of men, & acts accordingly.

How can anyone believe in Jesus, when even after regeneration, we are still stuck with this dilemma?

For the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh,
for these are in opposition to one another, so that whatever you want,
you may not do these things. Gal 5:17​

Now, if we as regenerate believers, having the Holy Spirit in us, and face that conflict spoken of in Gal 5:17? A real conflict, especially in our early days of being a believer? How impossible is it to say that God has granted man free will? How can that be? What God has granted mankind is His grace power.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so." Rom 8:7​

Unless God intervenes and takes over control of the man's sin nature? No soul could believe in Jesus Christ. That is why it says... "you were saved by GRACE."

Grace is God's power to enable us where we are too weak to do what is needed to please Him. But, just because God gives grace? That does not guarantee that the soul that is momentarily freed of the oppression of his flesh, will decide in that freedom to accept Jesus! That's the catch.

Man by God's grace is placed in a state of having induced free will. How he will choose while under that grace will be determined from his soul - not from his sin nature. That is why God must condemn all who reject Christ. For there will be no excuse under those circumstances, that God provided for with His Grace being administered while a soul freely made up its mind...

.........Its something"other."

 

[robycop3]

So you believe Open Theism is a bridge between Calvinism, and Arminism?
As a Baptist what would your leaning be in theological terms?

Not a trick or debate question, I am hoping to better understand the passionate views that motivate why people on both sides are generally agressive.

Actually, I am Sola Scriptura, not believing any man-made doctrines of faith/worship. I believe all our intel about God comes from His word.

I lean toward, but don't totally embrace the Arminian view, based upon Scripture. Several times, Jesus said, "whoever believes", as He did in the most-well-known verse of the Bible, John 3:16, besides what He had Peter write in 2 Peter 3:9.

People are passionate in their view of the KJVO myth because they're mostly Sola Scriptura, & revere God's word. MY view of the KJVO myth as false is based upon the fact that KJVO is totally man-made, without one quark of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, even in the KJV itself, and the common-sense fact that the KJV is not perfect, & there are several better English translations out there.

And, of course, some so-called KJVOs are dishonest, seeking to make $$ by selling boox promoting KJVO, and phooey on the TRUTH. Those are some of the reasons people try to defend their "take" of the KJVO myth so vehemently.

 

[now faith]

Actually, I am Sola Scriptura, not believing any man-made doctrines of faith/worship. I believe all our intel about God comes from His word.

I lean toward, but don't totally embrace the Arminian view, based upon Scripture. Several times, Jesus said, "whoever believes", as He did in the most-well-known verse of the Bible, John 3:16, besides what He had Peter write in 2 Peter 3:9.

People are passionate in their view of the KJVO myth because they're mostly Sola Scriptura, & revere God's word. MY view of the KJVO myth as false is based upon the fact that KJVO is totally man-made, without one quark of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, even in the KJV itself, and the common-sense fact that the KJV is not perfect, & there are several better English translations out there.

And, of course, some so-called KJVOs are dishonest, seeking to make $$ by selling boox promoting KJVO, and phooey on the TRUTH. Those are some of the reasons people try to defend their "take" of the KJVO myth so vehemently.

I have not heard about any scams with the King James.
I have been a Christian for 53 years now,raised in Freewill Baptist home.
The King James is the only version I care to use, even after becoming a Charismatic full Gospel believer.
I do not begrudge anyone for their choice in Bibles,we have to face the fact the debate is old.
There are so many things happening today debates on theology are not high on my list.
God Bless.

 

[now faith]

How can anyone believe in Jesus, when even after regeneration, we are still stuck with this dilemma?

For the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh,
for these are in opposition to one another, so that whatever you want,
you may not do these things. Gal 5:17​

Now, if we as regenerate believers, having the Holy Spirit in us, and face that conflict spoken of in Gal 5:17? A real conflict, especially in our early days of being a believer? How impossible is it to say that God has granted man free will? How can that be? What God has granted mankind is His grace power.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so." Rom 8:7​

Unless God intervenes and takes over control of the man's sin nature? No soul could believe in Jesus Christ. That is why it says... "you were saved by GRACE."

Grace is God's power to enable us where we are too weak to do what is needed to please Him. But, just because God gives grace? That does not guarantee that the soul that is momentarily freed of the oppression of his flesh, will decide in that freedom to accept Jesus! That's the catch.

Man by God's grace is placed in a state of having induced free will. How he will choose while under that grace will be determined from his soul - not from his sin nature. That is why God must condemn all who reject Christ. For there will be no excuse under those circumstances, that God provided for with His Grace being administered while a soul freely made up its mind...

.........Its something"other."

It helps me to read the context of the chapter:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Then I look at b a problem Paul was addressing
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
There were at that time knostics planting seeds contrary to Paul's teaching.

Old ways of understanding are gone.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
We put away our flesh,our mind that would sin and walk after the Spirit.
Our lives daily should be spent with our minds set on Gods ways.
Yes we will all fall short,and by walking by the Spirit we know to repent.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
To define Flesh would be Pride,Vanity ,lust...
Our minds can be influenced by the things of darkness.

Just ask me,I battle the Flesh,and know when I have lost.

 

[GenemZ]

It helps me to read the context of the chapter:

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Then I look at b a problem Paul was addressing
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
There were at that time knostics planting seeds contrary to Paul's teaching.

Old ways of understanding are gone.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
We put away our flesh,our mind that would sin and walk after the Spirit.
Our lives daily should be spent with our minds set on Gods ways.
Yes we will all fall short,and by walking by the Spirit we know to repent.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
To define Flesh would be Pride,Vanity ,lust...
Our minds can be influenced by the things of darkness.

Just ask me,I battle the Flesh,and know when I have lost.

You did say a lot of words. But nothing addresses what I said and asked, which you quoted of me.

 

[now faith]

You did say a lot of words. But nothing addresses what I said and asked, which you quoted of me.

You asked How can anyone believe in Jesus after regernation, when
we are stuck with a dilemma, of the Spirit at odds with the Flesh.

I assume you mean after salvation.
Man is Spirit, Soul, and Body.
God upon salvation gave man the indwelling of His Spirit the Holy Spirit.
Your flesh does not have Salvation,it is your soul and Spirit that is regenerated.
or a more general term would be your mind and spirit.
With the Holy Spirit indwelling you He will convict your mind and Spirit,and guide you in all truth.
Being sensitive to God drawing you away from carnal thoughts is the ability to know when you are being called upon for unrighteousness.
You cannot know God unless you know Him in your Spirit.
God is a Spirit those who worship Him Must worship Him in Spirit and in truth
You cannot be regenerated unless your Spirit and mind is regenerated
as well.

This is a Fundemtal of salivation:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
Yes the sin curse of this Earth will tempt you.
This is the conflict.
You become a new creature in Christ old things are past.
This gives you the ability,and knowledge to overcome carnal desires.
I personally Believe in many Churches today who practice cessionism, simply deny the power of the Holy Spirit.
The use of the terminlogy the Holy Spirit in its self is wrong.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Our minds categorized the term because His work is indescribable.
Jesus said I will send you the Comforter.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

God Bless

 

[GenemZ]

You asked How can anyone believe in Jesus after regernation, when we are stuck with a dilemma, of the Spirit at odds with the Flesh.

I was saying something different... That if its so difficult after we are saved to be spiritually stabilized? Its impossible before we are saved. That without God suppressing our flesh while we are deciding what we believe? No one could ever get saved. That is why we must be saved by grace!

 

[now faith]

I was saying something different... That if its so difficult after we are saved to be spiritually stabilized? Its impossible before we are saved. That without God suppressing our flesh while we are deciding what we believe? No one could ever get saved. That is why we must be saved by grace!

Grace is umerited favor, a Gift from God.
Yet we must receive it by Faith.
Grace from God is provided for all.
All do not choose to believe for various reasons.

Predestination is illogical due to believing in you are.
To make a choice to believe we are saved by grace alone,leaves out those who never come to the knowledge of Christ.
The ideology of predestination is a logical fallacy.
The Theologians in order to reconcile this problem,simply say God chooses who to offer Grace to,with the foreknowledge they will accept it.
This places God with ambiguous motives.
God therefore would have purposed all things.
This would have made the need for Christ to be our sacrifice pointless.

 

[now faith]

I do not know how other translations quote the verse, but here is the verse that tells us two things.
1 We must believe in Him,and want salvation.
2 We do not work our way to God,or work to believe He is lord of our life.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Verse 10 can be misunderstood.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


This simply states who we are in Christ,and God preordained that upon,Salvation we should walk in the righteousness that Christ gave on Calvary.

 

[GenemZ]

Grace is umerited favor, a Gift from God.
Yet we must receive it by Faith.

Sorry... you are just repeating things .... Not things that the Bible teaches. "unmerited favor" sounds nice and good. But, what does the Bible tell us? That's what counts.

Grace made us able to have faith.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65
​

For, God must enable us before we can think with faith. Grace is God's enabling.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph 2:8​

Grace saves us. Faith manifested is the proof that it has.

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can
come to me unless the Father has enabled them." Jn 6:65​

Grace enables us. Grace is invisible power granted to us by means of the Holy Spirit, causing us to stop malfunctioning as a fallen man would, and to function as God desires us to be.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly
about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9
​

Read that? See what it says? Grace = Christ's power!

Now.. that's what the Bible teaches.

Men make up find sounding things often times to please their hearers as they neglect the needed study to be a workman needing not to be ashamed.

Now, if grace is unmerited favor? Please provide Scripture to show how that is so.

grace and peace.......