Anyone up for a chat thread?

Paidiske · Oct 21, 2022

I don't think there's an Anglican church in Antarctica?

I do know at one point the church owned some land on French Island, and there was a running joke amongst some of us about who might be sent to plant a church there.

Philip_B · Oct 21, 2022

In my view, if there was one, it could very quickly be filled with too many Bishops and Priests, and very few lay folk...

Paidiske · Oct 21, 2022

I actually thought French Island had potential for developing a retreat centre. But that would take vision and money, both of which are often in short supply...

Shane R · Oct 21, 2022

Our bishop is going to Fr. David's parish (St. Luke's) to say a requiem Mass Wednesday morning. Our bishop offers that rite to all of the clergy. I got to thinking on it and it's been around 4 years since we lost one. He also makes a point of visiting the clergy if they are sick in the hospital. I had some major surgery a few years ago and woke up to him standing at the foot of my bed. I was somewhat embarrassed as I was nearly naked! My mind was also somewhat addled by medication. He helped me put my pants on and took me home and I needed the help because my coordination was nonexistent.

Paidiske · Oct 21, 2022

Sounds like a good bishop.

Shane R · Dec 4, 2022

I've recently been credentialed to serve some Lutheran churches. I had moved to attempt to relaunch a church and that was a disaster. My bishop told me to stop slamming my head into the proverbial wall and find other ways to be productive. This is it.

I've gone to the nearest parish 2 Sundays now to get acclimated to the service. It's really not that different from the BCP, just rearranged a bit and different chant tones.

Paidiske · Dec 4, 2022

There's very little relationship between Anglicans and Lutherans here. At one point the local Lutheran pastor was suggesting he might invite me to preach, but then he left and there's been no real contact since.

But still, "find other ways to be productive"! Why, thank you very much for your constructive input, bishop.

The Liturgist · Dec 5, 2022

Paidiske said:
I don't think there's an Anglican church in Antarctica?

I do know at one point the church owned some land on French Island, and there was a running joke amongst some of us about who might be sent to plant a church there.

If there isn’t an Anglican presence in Antarctica, I would argue there should be.

Indeed I would be interested to know who all has chapels in Antarctica. It is well known that there is a permanent Russian Orthodox chapel (which by the way would be a very interesting benefice to be entrusted with), but I have no idea how often they celebrate the Divine Liturgy or even reader services where a priest is not required (these include the Divine Office and the Typika, the latter being directly analogous to Ante Communion in the Anglican tradition, and there are rubrics for celebrating a Typika without clergy; there is also the Roman equivalent of the Missa Sicca or “dry mass” also known as the Missa Venatoris, historically used by hunters as the name implies, and also by Carthusian hermits in addition to the daily Conventual mass) and I have heard of others.

Actually ministry in Antarctica strikes me as very important for two reasons: psychological stress caused by the isolation and conditions, particularly in the winter months, and also to help evangelize the scientific community, because many scientists needlessly suffer under the totally false impression that scientific rigor demands of them a nihilist, materialist atheism, and the evangelization of scientists generally should I think be a priority for Christian churches, and I think Anglicanism is a denomination which has a particular potential to reach scientists.

The Liturgist · Dec 5, 2022

Paidiske said:
There's very little relationship between Anglicans and Lutherans here. At one point the local Lutheran pastor was suggesting he might invite me to preach, but then he left and there's been no real contact since.

But still, "find other ways to be productive"! Why, thank you very much for your constructive input, bishop.

Are there very many Lutherans in Australia? There are very few in England, I think only around 20 or so Lutheran parishes in the country aside from parishes of the various national Lutheran churches.

Oh by the way, speaking of ecclesiastical exclaves, the Anglican church in Copenhagen near the Tivoli Gardens is extremely beautiful. I visited it many years ago and the sweetness of the elderly Anglo-Danish people I met there was one of the more memorable parts of that visit to the splendid Danish capital.

Paidiske · Dec 5, 2022

The Liturgist said:
If there isn’t an Anglican presence in Antarctica, I would argue there should be.

...

Actually ministry in Antarctica strikes me as very important for two reasons: psychological stress caused by the isolation and conditions, particularly in the winter months, and also to help evangelize the scientific community, because many scientists needlessly suffer under the totally false impression that scientific rigor demands of them a nihilist, materialist atheism, and the evangelization of scientists generally should I think be a priority for Christian churches, and I think Anglicanism is a denomination which has a particular potential to reach scientists.

I don't think any of the Antarctic missions have a formal chaplain. Some might have, say, a lay reader who happens to be there in another role. I doubt most governments would be prepared to fund such a position, and I doubt most churches would consider it a priority. (Hmm. I wonder who would claim jurisdiction in the Anglican church in Australia? The diocese of Tasmania?)

You may be interested in the work of ISCAST.

The Liturgist said:
Are there very many Lutherans in Australia? There are very few in England, I think only around 20 or so Lutheran parishes in the country aside from parishes of the various national Lutheran churches.

In most parts of Australia, no. In Melbourne I could probably count the number of congregations on the fingers of one hand. But in some pockets where there were a lot of German settlers, they're a stronger presence. In and around Adelaide, for example, and oddly, in and around Albury where I am, there is a strong Lutheran presence.

From time to time I've looked at working in the diocese of Europe. Maybe one day...

The Liturgist · Dec 5, 2022

Paidiske said:
I don't think any of the Antarctic missions have a formal chaplain. Some might have, say, a lay reader who happens to be there in another role. I doubt most governments would be prepared to fund such a position, and I doubt most churches would consider it a priority. (Hmm. I wonder who would claim jurisdiction in the Anglican church in Australia? The diocese of Tasmania?)

Does the Anglican Church in Australia have anything equivalent to the C of E and Episcopalian (ECUSA) dioceses abroad, which have a general jurisdiction for Australian pastoral care in other countries? Also, out of curiosity, what is the relationship like between the Australian and New Zealand churches in this respect? Kiwis are of course culturally distinct yet related to Australians and both countries are known for expeditions in the Antarctic, and you also have the small but resilient Kelpers of the Falklands in the South Atlantic, and the Anglican Diocese of the Southern Cone, which I believe primarily caters to those of English descent in South America (who historically, particularly in Argentina oddly enough, have had a somewhat elite social standing), and then the Anglican province in South Africa which rose to fame under Archbishop Desmond Tutu for its opposition to the evil Apartheid regime. It seems like there are cultural similarities between these groups of British nationals and former British colonies in the Southern hemisphere which would logically have shared interests and perhaps stand to benefit from coordination due to sparse population.

Paidiske said:
You may be interested in the work of ISCAST.

In most parts of Australia, no. In Melbourne I could probably count the number of congregations on the fingers of one hand. But in some pockets where there were a lot of German settlers, they're a stronger presence. In and around Adelaide, for example, and oddly, in and around Albury where I am, there is a strong Lutheran presence.

From time to time I've looked at working in the diocese of Europe. Maybe one day...

I think working in the Diocese of Europe would be a superb job, and it also represents an opportunity to witness to Christianity in a dignified way, to avert or in some cases revert the tragedy of post-Christian society brought about by secularization and atheism, which results in alienation between contemporary European society and Christian immigrants to Europe from the Middle East, Pakistan and other places where the persecution of Christians by Muslims, Hindu nationalists, and other groups has become intolerable and in some cases has amounted to ethnic cleansing in their homeland.

Despite official policies of tolerance and vigorous legislation against hate speech, it has been my experience in Europe that a number of Europeans, like other first world nations including my own, do discriminate against immigrants, and in some cases resent or are intimidated by the slightly different forms of Christianity among the immigrant population, for these either are different from what Europeans are accustomed to, or increasingly there is a tragic distrust towards religion in general.

Paidiske · Dec 5, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Does the Anglican Church in Australia have anything equivalent to the C of E and Episcopalian (ECUSA) dioceses abroad, which have a general jurisdiction for Australian pastoral care in other countries? Also, out of curiosity, what is the relationship like between the Australian and New Zealand churches in this respect? Kiwis are of course culturally distinct yet related to Australians and both countries are known for expeditions in the Antarctic, and you also have the small but resilient Kelpers of the Falklands in the South Atlantic, and the Anglican Diocese of the Southern Cone, which I believe primarily caters to those of English descent in South America (who historically, particularly in Argentina oddly enough, have had a somewhat elite social standing), and then the Anglican province in South Africa which rose to fame under Archbishop Desmond Tutu for its opposition to the evil Apartheid regime. It seems like there are cultural similarities between these groups of British nationals and former British colonies in the Southern hemisphere which would logically have shared interests and perhaps stand to benefit from coordination due to sparse population.

I think working in the Diocese of Europe would be a superb job, and it also represents an opportunity to witness to Christianity in a dignified way, to avert or in some cases revert the tragedy of post-Christian society brought about by secularization and atheism, which results in alienation between contemporary European society and Christian immigrants to Europe from the Middle East, Pakistan and other places where the persecution of Christians by Muslims, Hindu nationalists, and other groups has become intolerable and in some cases has amounted to ethnic cleansing in their homeland.

Despite official policies of tolerance and vigorous legislation against hate speech, it has been my experience in Europe that a number of Europeans, like other first world nations including my own, do discriminate against immigrants, and in some cases resent or are intimidated by the slightly different forms of Christianity among the immigrant population, for these either are different from what Europeans are accustomed to, or increasingly there is a tragic distrust towards religion in general.

I haven't worked out how to break up quotes in this new forum software, so sorry that my reply is a bit clumsy.

To the best of my knowledge, no, we have nothing like the dioceses abroad. Australian Anglicans in other countries would generally come under the local Anglican church in that other country.

My observation is that the Anglican churches in the places you mention - Australia, New Zealand, South America and Southern Africa - each have quite distinct histories and cultural flavouring. It so happens that my bishop comes from South Africa, and has encouraged a number of South African priests to come and work in this diocese, and the cultural gap has been acknowledged as difficult on both sides.

Could we stand to benefit from working more closely together? Quite probably. But remember that we literally don't even all speak the same language. The church in New Zealand has Maori and Pasifika tikanga as well as Pakeha. Many Anglicans in southern Africa don't speak English as a first language. (I know less about the situation in South America). And each is dealing with significant challenges in our own context.

As far as the Diocese of Europe, I'm particularly interested in the eastern part of the diocese; the part that covers places like Turkey and Mongolia, where Christianity is a religious minority. But it will have to be the right opportunity at the right time, and so far it hasn't ever quite worked out.

The Liturgist · Dec 5, 2022

Paidiske said:
(I know less about the situation in South America).

In South America the Anglicans speak Spanish or Portuguese. Anglicanism has provinces in Spain, Portugal and Mexico, and has a number of non-English ethnic members as well as ethnic members. I suspect this is due to the historically mostly amicable relations between Britain, Spain and Portugal since the 19th century, and the role Britons played in the development of many Latin American countries. So the level of ethnic diversity is extreme.

Oh, this also caused me to wonder, has anyone heard of American Anglican priests serving in another Anglican jurisdiction? There are a visible number of English priests in the Episcopal Church, including I believe the rector of St. Thomas 5th Ave; I wonder what the reaction would be in, for instance, Melbourne, to the idea of an expat American cleric. For that matter, what is the process, if any, for Anglican priests within the Anglican Communion to serve in jurisdictions other than that in which they were ordained?

Paidiske · Dec 5, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Oh, this also caused me to wonder, has anyone heard of American Anglican priests serving in another Anglican jurisdiction? There are a visible number of English priests in the Episcopal Church, including I believe the rector of St. Thomas 5th Ave; I wonder what the reaction would be in, for instance, Melbourne, to the idea of an expat American cleric. For that matter, what is the process, if any, for Anglican priests within the Anglican Communion to serve in jurisdictions other than that in which they were ordained?

I'm sure there are some American priests serving in other places, although I don't personally know any here.

Melbourne's a very cosmopolitan place, with clergy who've come from all sorts of places. I doubt an American would raise eyebrows just by reason of country of origin. They might have a harder time in Sydney, for theological reasons!

Generally speaking (it does vary a bit from place to place), the clergy person would find out about and express interest in a vacancy, there'd be an interview process both with the bishop and diocesan personnel, as well as the nominators from the parish or chaplaincy. If everyone were happy after interviews, you'd go through whatever clearances and immigration processes were required.

Generally it's considered poor form to leave your ordaining diocese within a short time after ordination, but even then it does happen.

Side note: I found out after moving dioceses that the bishop of my former diocese complained to the bishop of my new diocese because my new bishop had acquired several clergy from my former diocese. Apparently my former bishop felt that this was taking advantage a bit. But I didn't see him doing much to try to keep us, either...

Arcangl86 · Dec 6, 2022

The Liturgist said:
In South America the Anglicans speak Spanish or Portuguese. Anglicanism has provinces in Spain, Portugal and Mexico, and has a number of non-English ethnic members as well as ethnic members. I suspect this is due to the historically mostly amicable relations between Britain, Spain and Portugal since the 19th century, and the role Britons played in the development of many Latin American countries. So the level of ethnic diversity is extreme.

Oh, this also caused me to wonder, has anyone heard of American Anglican priests serving in another Anglican jurisdiction? There are a visible number of English priests in the Episcopal Church, including I believe the rector of St. Thomas 5th Ave; I wonder what the reaction would be in, for instance, Melbourne, to the idea of an expat American cleric. For that matter, what is the process, if any, for Anglican priests within the Anglican Communion to serve in jurisdictions other than that in which they were ordained?

One notable example I can think of is Most Rev. Mark McDonald, the former National Indigenous Anglican Archbishop in Canada. Before he was up there he served as bishop in a couple of different capacities in the TEC. And I also found an interesting article from about 7 or 8 years ago about a sort of informal pipeline of priests from my diocese ending up in Newfoundland. I imagine it's not ultra common, but it does happen it appears.

Shane R · Aug 6, 2023

Encounters in Biblical illiteracy: I've been serving a parish that's about 40 miles out from my house. If no one invites us for lunch after church, I typically look for some lunch in a small town at the half-way point. We tried to get some fried chicken today. The clerk was making a fresh batch of tater wedges and started talking to me about Moses and the ark while we waited (because it had started to rain torrentially outside.)

Paidiske · Aug 6, 2023

That might (just) be more bearable than the bunch of conspiracy theories I was just regaled with. Sigh.

Church. It'd be perfect without people.

Philip_B · Aug 7, 2023

One of the things I have discovered as I traverse the world of U3a is that the Church no longer has a monopoly on conspiracy theorists

Paidiske · Aug 7, 2023

Oh, I'm sure! I have a theory that the impending referendum is increasing the general level of crazy, though. Or at least, the level at which it is given voice (there's an irony for you).

Bob Crowley · Aug 7, 2023

I'm not into conspiracy theories although there are those who would regard me as a religious nut. They'll find out eventually whether I've been telling the truth or not.

On the business of the impending referendum on "The Voice", as far as I'm concerned the "yes" party haven't been very active in explaining how it is supposed to work. If it falls over they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

Twice I was booked to go to a seminar where it would be explained. The first time it was cancelled a week or so beforehand. The second time I didn't find out it had been cancelled until I arrived at the venue. Nor did the other attendees.

That's not the government's fault, or that of either party, including the indigenous, but it seems to me to be typical of the very poor effort that has gone into explaining how it's supposed to work, what the limits are and how it will or won't affect the rights of the other 96.8% of us who are not indigenous.

Add to this the fact the indigenous leaders themselves are divided over it, and there's no reason to feel confident about a "yes" vote.

Anyone up for a chat thread?

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