Anyone Know the Greek in Ephesians 2:8-9?

[Machiavelli]

I was just wondering if anyone knew the Greek tense of the word "saved" in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Can anyone help?

 

[Bob Moore]

Sure. In this passage it is in the present tense. However, the word translated 'saved' in Matthew 10:22 is σωθησεται, and is in the future tense. English is cumbersome, and in many instances lacks the nuanced meaning of theGreek.

Ephesians 2:8-9 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται

Here is some helpful commentary frrom John Gill:

",.... This is to be understood, not of temporal salvation, nor of preservation in Christ, nor of providential salvation in order to calling, and much less of being put in a way of salvation, or only in a salvable state; but of spiritual salvation, and that actual; for salvation was not only resolved upon, contrived and secured in the covenant of grace, for the persons here spoken to, but it was actually obtained and wrought out for them by Christ, and was actually applied unto them by the Spirit; and even as to the full enjoyment of it, they had it in faith and hope; and because of the certainty of it, they are said to be already saved; and besides, were representatively possessed of it in Christ their head: those interested in this salvation, are not all mankind, but particular persons; and such who were by nature children of wrath, and sinners of the Gentiles; and it is a salvation from sin, Satan, the law, its curse and condemnation, and from eternal death, and wrath to come; and includes all the blessings of grace and glory; and is entirely owing to free grace: for by grace is not meant the Gospel, nor gifts of grace, nor grace infused; but the free favour of God, to which salvation in all its branches is ascribed; as election, redemption, justification, pardon, adoption, regeneration, and eternal glory: the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "by his grace", and so some copies; and it may refer to the grace of all the three Persons; for men are saved by the grace of the Father, who drew the plan of salvation, appointed men to it, made a covenant with his Son, in which it is provided and secured, and sent him into the world to obtain it; and by the grace of the Son, who engaged as a surety to effect it, assumed human nature, obeyed and suffered in it for that purpose, and has procured it; and by the grace of the Spirit, who makes men sensible of their need of it, brings it near, sets it before them, and applies it to them, and gives them faith and hope in it: " {emphasis added}

 

[filosofer]

Sure. In this passage it is in the present tense. However, the word translated 'saved' in Matthew 10:22 is SESWSMENOI, and is in the future tense. English is cumbersome, and in many instances lacks the nuanced meaning of theGreek.

Well, let's make sure that we get the Greek correct, before offering any theological commentary. The Greek word, SESWSMENOI is not a present tense. The Greek uses two words as the main verb here (also identical in 2:5): ESTE SESWSMENOI. The first is the present tense of the verb "to be", the second is the perfect passive participle of the Greek word SWZW. The combination is a periphrastic (round-about) way of forming the perfect passive.


The sense of translating is that it is something that happened in the past, but which has present consequences. Thus, we could translate it as: "You have been saved [in the past and you are still in that condition of being saved]."

Now when you look at several translations, you will find some that emphasize the past aspect:

NAS/ESV/NKJV/NIV "you have been saved"

Others emphasize the present reality:

KJV/NET "you are saved"

I favor the first translation, because without the sense of something having been completed in the past (which is evident in the Greek), the present condition is not established by the English translation, unless someone takes the time to explain.

 

[Bob Moore]

Nothing wrong with a little overblown scholarship, I suppose, except that salvation, in the passage at hand, is spoken of as a present possession which may quite properly be called 'present tense', which answers the original question.

Now when you look at several translations, you will find some that emphasize the past aspect:
NAS/ESV/NKJV/NIV "you have been saved"

Happened in the past, you possess it in the PRESENT.

Others emphasize the present reality:

KJV/NET "you are saved"

You possess salvation in the present. There is, for all practical purposes, no difference at all in these examples because salvation is a once-for-all-action. As long as you are in the present your salvation is as well.

 

[filosofer]

Nothing wrong with a little overblown scholarship, I suppose, except that salvation, in the passage at hand, is spoken of as a present possession which may quite properly be called 'present tense', which answers the original question.

No, the OP was asking about the verb and tense in the Greek. It is not a present tense, no matter how you slice it. You are doing exactly the opposite of what should be done. You have ignored the Greek, presented a theological argument, then tried to justify mis-identifying the Greek to support your theological position. Taking this approach, a person can never be certain what the "text says" because the person doesn't care about the tenses, syntax, etc.; the person can make the underlying Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) say anthing he/she wants.

The proper way to do this is: identify the Greek vocabulary, grammar and syntax, (then, if needed, translate appropriately - and then, and only then, begin to examine the theological implications of what the text says, from which you can begin to formulate theological statements based on the text.

Happened in the past, you possess it in the PRESENT.

But you don't know that from the English, and you certainly don't know that from mis-identifying the Greek verb tense. The only reason you can make this statement is because the Greek is a periphrastic perfect tense.

You possess salvation in the present. There is, for all practical purposes, no difference at all in these examples because salvation is a once-for-all-action. As long as you are in the present your salvation is as well.

It makes quite a bit of difference. The reality (as evidenced by the verb in Greek) is that the salvation is based upon something in the past, specifically what Christ did on the cross. That was when salvation was attained, and that is the basis for having any sense of present salvation. Without the historical grounding in the past, there is no present salvation.

Now from a theological perspective of the letter, the key theme is "in Christ" which occurs 37 times in the letter (in one form or another). The whole point of 1:3-14 is that savlation is accomplished "in Christ" and all the other supportive theological clause (election, etc.) have been effected in what Christ did. It is all of this that is behind the perfect tense of the verb in Eph 2:5 and 8.

 

[Bob Moore]

I kindly suggest that you consult a good Greek lexicon, such as Thayer's. You will find that the usage of σεσωσμενοι in Ephesians 2:8 is with reference to an action that has begun. Having begun, it exists in the present. The definite statement "...you have been..." indicates that it is something you have now. The plain intention of the passage is to convey the idea that you are presently saved.

I have no idea what Machiavelli may or may not know about the nature of salvation, but I see nothing to be gained by complicating a rather simple question.

 

[filosofer]

Ahhhh this board is driving me nuts - it won't let me post!!!

======

 

[filosofer]

oh, this is very irritating (the posting problems, not the discussion!!)!!!!!

I have been teaching Greek for 20+ years, so I know a little about grammars and lexicons...

My basic thrust is that lexicons are not the starting point, rather check the introductory grammars to verify the form of the verb(s).

 

[filosofer]

Once you have verified that the form is Perfect, then look at an intermediate grammar or grammar analysis to see what is said about the perfect. Here are two, but there many others. And I don't necessarily agree with everything they have written (they are not inerrant, after all). I am referencing Wallace, only because it was the closest Grammar to my computer right now. Check out Blass-deBrunner, Moulton, four volume Grammar, etc.)

A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, Max Zerweck and Mary Grosvenor, p. 581.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics Daniel Wallace, pp. 572-582.

Now, note what Wallace writes:

"As Moulton points our, the perfect tense is 'the most important, exegetically, of all the Greek Tenses' [Moulton, Prolegomena, Vol. 1 of four volumes, page 140]." Wallace, p. 573.

"The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past (we are speaking of the perfect indicative here), has results in the present time (i.e. in relation to the time of the speaker).... " Wallace, page 573.

"... the perfect may be viewed as combining the aspects of both the aorist and present tense. It speaks of a completed action (aorist) with existing results (present). The basic question to be asked is which of these aspects is emphasized in a given context." Wallace, page 574.

 

[filosofer]

I am still not able to post all of this... nuts....

 

[filosofer]

Note his cautions in both directions:

"The implication that 'the perfect tells you that the event occured and still has significant results' goes beyond grammar and is therefore misleading. Even more misleading is the notion, frequently found in commentaries, that the perfect tense denotes permanent or eternal results. Such a statement is akin to saying the aroist tense means "once-for-all" Wallace, page 574 (emphases in original).

 

[Machiavelli]

Obviously, my knowledge of New Testament Greek is pretty poor, which is why I asked the question.

From what I'm getting, am I right to assume that you believe that "saved" is written in the perfect tense - you have been saved (and will remain saved), rather that the aorist tense - you had been saved (once), or indeed the present tense - you are in the continual process of being saved?

 

[filosofer]

Obviously, my knowledge of New Testament Greek is pretty poor, which is why I asked the question.

From what I'm getting, am I right to assume that you believe that "saved" is written in the perfect tense - you have been saved (and will remain saved), rather that the aorist tense - you had been saved (once), or indeed the present tense - you are in the continual process of being saved?

Close.

Perfect: (which is used in text)

Salvation was completed in the past, and the present state is such that salvation is there.

Aorist:

Salvation was completed in the past.

Present:

Salvation is taking place, or better, salvation is the present status of the person.

Wallace tends to focus on the "state" of the person relative to the verb (see his discussion, pp. 572-582. He also notes that the context of each is the key determiner of how to understand the verb and how to relate that to translation. That is one reason that the NET goes with "are saved" in Eph. 2:8, since he was one of the primary translators, and editor of the translation.

I learned Greek from Robert Hoerber, a specialist in classical Greek, Latin, and Koine Greek. He was one of the translators of the NKJV. He tended toward the more complete understanding, "You have been saved and you are still presently in that saved condition".

 

[Dmckay]

Well, let's make sure that we get the Greek correct, before offering any theological commentary. The Greek word, SESWSMENOI is not a present tense. The Greek uses two words as the main verb here (also identical in 2:5): ESTE SESWSMENOI. The first is the present tense of the verb "to be", the second is the perfect passive participle of the Greek word SWZW. The combination is a periphrastic (round-about) way of forming the perfect passive.


The sense of translating is that it is something that happened in the past, but which has present consequences. Thus, we could translate it as: "You have been saved [in the past and you are still in that condition of being saved]."

Now when you look at several translations, you will find some that emphasize the past aspect:

NAS/ESV/NKJV/NIV "you have been saved"

Others emphasize the present reality:

KJV/NET "you are saved"

I favor the first translation, because without the sense of something having been completed in the past (which is evident in the Greek), the present condition is not established by the English translation, unless someone takes the time to explain.

I saw the original question and was about to answer it. As I scrolled down I saw this brother's response and he is absolutely correct it is a perfect passive participial form of the verb. and His translation is spot on.

 

[Bob Moore]

oh, this is very irritating (the posting problems, not the discussion!!)!!!!!

I have been teaching Greek for 20+ years, so I know a little about grammars and lexicons...

My basic thrust is that lexicons are not the starting point, rather check the introductory grammars to verify the form of the verb(s).

I hope you didn't think I was impugning your scholarship. My intention was to convey the practical usage of the term in that verse. You certainly would not deny, would you, that what I have said about the thrust of the passage is true?

I know from personal experience and decades of observation that sometimes experts go all around the barn instead of just answering the question. The OP basically asked the time. I told him, without giving instruction on watch making.

 

[Bob Moore]

From what I'm getting, am I right to assume that you believe that "saved" is written in the perfect tense - you have been saved (and will remain saved), rather that the aorist tense - you had been saved (once), or indeed the present tense - you are in the continual process of being saved?

Exactly.

 

[prodromos]

My bible of choice, the "Orthodox New Testament", translates this passage thus;

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; the gift is of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John

 

[filosofer]

I hope you didn't think I was impugning your scholarship. My intention was to convey the practical usage of the term in that verse. You certainly would not deny, would you, that what I have said about the thrust of the passage is true?

I think that the theological implications of the verse can be debated; you have presented one position on that, and I respect that. But that was not the question in the OP.

I know from personal experience and decades of observation that sometimes experts go all around the barn instead of just answering the question. The OP basically asked the time. I told him, without giving instruction on watch making.

No, I wasn't going around the barn. It seems maybe you did, though. If someone asks me what is the time, I will tell her "2:00 PM" (my response: "the tense of the verb"). I will not tell her that she is late for her luncheon appt (your response: "the implications of the time is that you are late for a luncheon appt").

Note, one more time:

OP
I was just wondering if anyone knew the Greek tense of the word "saved" in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Can anyone help?

The only correct answer to that question is: perfect passive participle.

If the OP had asked: "I was wondering what is the significance of the Greek word 'saved' in Ephesians 2:8-9?" Then your response would have been headed in the right direction and would have provided at leeast one possible answer to the question.