Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[boughtwithaprice]

Right there is a glaring contradiction...

Can I suggest a better understanding, that regarding election He chooses, but regarding our walk with Him we choose and are rewarded or not in eternity...

However many of your points are well taken...

It’s not a contradiction. God is love and He is a rewarder of those that love Him. Love is a choice or it is not love. To love is against our will could be construed as spiritual rape, which is not love
Scripture even says he stands at the door and knocks, He does not break down the door and force communion with Him

Yes I believe that we are incapable of saving ourselves, but when presented with the love of God, He gives us the choice. We can freely love or freely deny
Of there is no choice, then the argument can be made that God is evil. He created those poor souls just to torcher them in hell. How is that worthy of love? The cries of Satan from hell would be deafening

The most heart rending condition is love that is not returned or worse, love that is scorned. We humans know this, how much more do you think God knows it?

Hurt Him enough to sweat great drops of blood knowing that his love would not be returned by some, or that others would deny His love for all and claim it only for themselves? It was not that He feared death on a cross, but His pain came from doing it for nothing, but the Father said do it
Our Lord obeyed, should we not call all to repentance to be saved, rather than saying the dammed have no choice? Do we glory in our own salvation and lord it over the lost, or humble ourselves and truly tell them God loves them, just repent unto life?

 

[Carl Emerson]

It’s not a contradiction. God is love and He is a rewarder of those that love Him.

Real Love is from God alone - works without the Love of Christ come to nothing.

His Love is irresistible to the chosen.

 

[d taylor]

Ok so you say there is one kind of belief but only those that really believe will produce works, which is the belief one kind or are there two?

Which verse says the fallen away will
be saved ? What I read in revelation says they will be vomitted out of God’s mouth and have there names blotted out of the book of life. Hebrews says if they fall away it is impossible to restore them to life as doing so crucifies the Lord afresh and brings Him to open shame

I agree that those with true belief will not be lost, but of those that fall away without repentance? I don’t see what you are taking about taught in scripture

-
​

There is no such thing as really believe. Do you believe man went to the moon. Well a person either believes this or they do not, they do not really believe. When a person is convinced something is true they will believe.

In the case of God's free gift of Eternal Life, God's promises that anyone who believes in Jesus for Eternal Life, receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

A person may fall away from their faith, but they can never fall away from the Eternal Life God gave them at the very moment of belief in Jesus.

This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul could have resisted and had the faith of the other Pharisees and sat by Beelzebub pretending to be Jesus I am made blind. He could not resist the facts of what happened to him, but the other Pharisees saw Jesus actually cast out a demon right in front of them, and they ascribed his power to Satan. Jesus had to school them and tell them Satan does not cast out Satan. Did they then repent? There is no scriptural evidence they did

1 Cor 1:1

"Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God..."

John 1

as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Hentenza]

Alright, we need to take a step back, as I don’t see anything of what you are saying that is in conflict with Catholic teaching. Works come from salvation, salvation does not come from works, and there is no such thing as salvation without works. So what is your contention?

How is it you accuse the Catholic Church of teaching salvation from works? Be specific. It would be helpful if you could show me quotes from the Catechism.

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the
justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors
of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to
every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the
Commandments

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

You church has always taught salvation by faith plus works, sacraments, and observance of commandments while scripture teaches salvation by grace through faith without works. I don’t know where you get that your church believes in doing works from salvation. I have never heard a Catholic agree with that in all my years in this website and in RL discussions with Catholics. In fact, your church teaches that a person can loose their saving faith (salvation) if they don’t do works, hence, a misguided reference to James teaching.

If you won’t, that then begs the question, why are you not Catholic? Why should we leave Christ’s Church that has existed for 2000 years and teaches the same as yours, to follow one that just appeared 500 years ago amidst human strife ?

I much rather don’t get into my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church but sufficient to say that the only way that I would ever return is if God Himself leads me back. He led me to where I have been for years so there I will remain.

 

[Hoping2]

Was Paul asked if he wanted to be blind ?

I doubt it.

Can you support your claim that Paul "had already been considering aspects of the new church"

The quote from Jesus saying Paul had been "kicking against the pricks" makes me see he had already been wondering about some parts of the new "way".

It was not a forced conversion but His Love is irresistible to the chosen.

That same love is available to all men.
Some just prefer to serve themselves first.
God wants all men to be saved, but not all men want to be "saved". (1 Cor 10:33, 1 Tim 2:4)

 

[boughtwithaprice]

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the
justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors
of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to
every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the
Commandments

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

You church has always taught salvation by faith plus works, sacraments, and observance of commandments while scripture teaches salvation by grace through faith without works. I don’t know where you get that your church believes in doing works from salvation. I have never heard a Catholic agree with that in all my years in this website and in RL discussions with Catholics. In fact, your church teaches that a person can loose their saving faith (salvation) if they don’t do works, hence, a misguided reference to James teaching.



I much rather don’t get into my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church but sufficient to say that the only way that I would ever return is if God Himself leads me back. He led me to where I have been for years so there I will remain.

Did you read the Canons on justification from the Council of Trent? They explain that salvation comes from God alone, yet deny antinomianism, which you seem to be advocating

I am reading that you say if a person comes to the knowledge of Jesus, he can never be lost no matter what he does, even if he falls away. I don’t see that taught in scripture
The scriptures that refer to God’s faithfulness refer to the elect, not those that rebel and fall away; however, those that fall away are not instantly lost or condemned. As long as they have life , they may be given a chance to repent

Much like the tree that bears no fruit in the parable. They are given space to repent, and if they bear the fruit of good works, they will be saved

God tells us to ask, seek, and knock. These are all works. He also warns against those that have knowledge of Him, yet do nothing. He says they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Only those that do the will of the Father enter in. The rest are cast out, as He says away from me, tou who commit iniquity, I never knew you

The Bible also equates mere knowledge of Jesus to demonic faith. The demons believe and shudder. He never tells us that if we believe in Him and ignore what He says that we have any hope of entering heaven


The Catholic Church teaches to head the warnings of Jesus and begin training in good works, as the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Virtue means habit. We do good works to learn the habit of doing good because we love God.
We do not blame Him for our weakness and refuse to work or refuse stop sinning or attaching our hearts to sin. That would be an absurd way of teaching salvation

One cannot be Catholic and refuse the sacraments. One cannot be saved and refuse the grace of repentance and good works
Christ justifies sinners in repentance, He does not justify sin

I would be interested in why you left the Catholic Church. I spent time away from her of around twenty years before God lead me home and gave me grace when I fully submitted to self denial.

I would like to know your story

 

[Carl Emerson]

The scriptures that refer to God’s faithfulness refer to the elect, not those that rebel and fall away; however, those that fall away are not instantly lost or condemned. As long as they have life , they may be given a chance to repent

You mean only the elect have the chance to repent if they fall ?

 

[Hentenza]

Did you read the Canons on justification from the Council of Trent? They explain that salvation comes from God alone, yet deny antinomianism, which you seem to be advocating

I have never advocated antinomianism since I specifically spoke of the different kinds of faith and about life long sanctification. I read the canons of Trent years ago and I am not going back to revisit them. I disagree with your characterization that salvation comes from God alone given the rejection of salvation by the grace of God through faith in favor of sacramental grace and a righteousness based on an admixture of grace and works.
Secondly, the ccc passages that I quoted in my last post, and that you did not address even after you asked me for them, already incorporate Trent.

I am reading that you say if a person comes to the knowledge of Jesus, he can never be lost no matter what he does, even if he falls away. I don’t see that taught in scripture
The scriptures that refer to God’s faithfulness refer to the elect, not those that rebel and fall away; however, those that fall away are not instantly lost or condemned. As long as they have life , they may be given a chance to repent

Please direct me to my post where I said that. Those with saving faith cannot fall away since they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and are a new creation (born again). A born again, regenerated believer with saving faith can’t hardly unreborn again. I’m glad you brought up the elect since these are whom I am talking about. Paul teaches that:

“Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭26‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:26-30 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searche | New American Standard Bible - NA

Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searche

bible.com

The elect can never fall away. So much for sacramental grace or the adwork of grace and works.

The Catholic Church teaches to head the warnings of Jesus and begin training in good works, as the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Virtue means habit. We do good works to learn the habit of doing good because we love God.
We do not blame Him for our weakness and refuse to work or refuse stop sinning or attaching our hearts to sin. That would be an absurd way of teaching salvation

And here is where the RC becomes quite weird. You and me, as imperfect humans in the flesh, are just like Paul, wretched. We try and we mean well but we still have to repent of our sins. You don’t just go to confession on Sunday, live the rest of the week as you wish just because you know that you can just repent next Sunday. I blame my wretchesness on my self and repent daily.

No one here has made the argument that we blame God for our weakness and refuse to do works. That is at par with teaching lies to convince the congregant that there is no salvation outside of the RCC. You, my friend, have swallowed the kool aid,

One cannot be Catholic and refuse the sacraments.

That is true. I am not Catholic and refuse the RCC sacraments. Tell me, can I still be saved? I ask because the first sentence of your ccc 1129 states “believers” not Catholics as you state.

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation

One cannot be saved and refuse the grace of repentance and good works

There last time I looked at your 7 sacraments I did not see one for grace or good works.

Christ justifies sinners in repentance, He does not justify sin

Christ justifies sinners one time at the time of conversion. There is no life long justification. That is not biblical. In fact Christ came while we are still sinners. Go figure.

I would be interested in why you left the Catholic Church. I spent time away from her of around twenty years before God lead me home and gave me grace when I fully submitted to self denial.

I would like to know your story

I think you can gleen my complete disagreement with certain RCC theology from my posts. I do not hate the RCC in any way but I disagree with many things about it.

 

[Valletta]

That is true. I am not Catholic and refuse the RCC sacraments. Tell me, can I still be saved? I ask because the first sentence of your ccc 1129 states “believers” not Catholics as you state.

The Catholic Church believes all Christians to be members of the Catholic Church. If you have received the sacrament of Baptism the Catholic Church considers you a member, but respects that you don't consider yourself a member. According to the Catholic Church non-Catholic Christians lack the "fullness of the faith." Thus all Christians can be saved.

 

[Hentenza]

The Catholic Church believes all Christians to be members of the Catholic Church. If you have received the sacrament of Baptism the Catholic Church considers you a member, but respects that you don't consider yourself a member. According to the Catholic Church non-Catholic Christians lack the "fullness of the faith." Thus all Christians can be saved.

@Valletta

Hi brother, you replied to my post within my post box so this is the only way that I could reply to your post. No worries.

The Catholic Church name, καθ' ὅλου" (kath' holou) in Greek, did not become a noun (name of the Catholic Church) until after Constantine in the fourth century. All churches shown in scripture are independent churches planted by the apostles.

With that said, I am not a member of the Catholic Church and have the fullness of the faith. It is quite arrogant for the RCC to believe that they are the only church and impart grace or faith. That’s Gods purview. I don’t see anywhere in the holy scripture where is states that I have to belong to the RCC to have the fullness of my faith. So the claim is simply nonsensical.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You mean only the elect have the chance to repent if they fall ?

no God wills all men everywhere to repent. The elect are those that will repent. God does not force them to repent.
The chance is offered to all whether they fall or not, only the elect will freely take it.
The invitation in Revelation is whosoever will, come and drink of the waters of life freely

Since we do not know who the elect are, we preach the Gospel to everyone

Salvation is a cleansing of sin, not a license to sin and expected cleansing later. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation
Repent for the time is near

The principle is taught in Ezekiel 3

18 If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 19 But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Moreover if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at thy hand.

21 But if thou warn the just man, that the just may not sin, and he doth not sin: living he shall live, because thou hast warned him, and thou hast delivered thy soul.

and again in Chapeter 18

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.



The teaching of Once saved always saved contradicts the word of God on this issue. But you ask are not the elect predestinated for heaven?
yes they are, but who are the elect and how do you know that you are one of them? We ask ourselves, are we doing penance for our sins, or do we act as though we have a license to sin? The elect know there is no license to sin, they do penance and ask God for grace to keep them from sin, not expecting to be saved while in the habit of sin
If we are merciful, we will have mercy shown us, if we forgive we will be forgiven. The promise is not if we condone, our behavior will also be condoned

 

[Valletta]

@Valletta

Hi brother, you replied to my post within my post box so this is the only way that I could reply to your post. No worries.

The Catholic Church name, καθ' ὅλου" (kath' holou) in Greek, did not become a noun (name of the Catholic Church) until after Constantine in the fourth century. All churches shown in scripture are independent churches planted by the apostles.

With that said, I am not a member of the Catholic Church and have the fullness of the faith. It is quite arrogant for the RCC to believe that they are the only church and impart grace or faith. That’s Gods purview. I don’t see anywhere in the holy scripture where is states that I have to belong to the RCC to have the fullness of my faith. So the claim is simply nonsensical.

Jesus and His Church are not arrogant. Saint Ignatius of Antioch died in 107 A.D, and obviously felt his audience was familiar enough with the word "Catholic" to use it in his Epistle:
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the Bishop
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
Wherever the Bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." (Epistle to the Smyrnaens Chapter 8 ).

I didn't say the fullness of "your" faith. What it means is that some Christians have lost some of what was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles. They are still our brothers and sisters in Christ and certainly, like the rest of us, can be saved.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

@Valletta

Hi brother, you replied to my post within my post box so this is the only way that I could reply to your post. No worries.

The Catholic Church name, καθ' ὅλου" (kath' holou) in Greek, did not become a noun (name of the Catholic Church) until after Constantine in the fourth century. All churches shown in scripture are independent churches planted by the apostles.

With that said, I am not a member of the Catholic Church and have the fullness of the faith. It is quite arrogant for the RCC to believe that they are the only church and impart grace or faith. That’s Gods purview. I don’t see anywhere in the holy script. ure where is states that I have to belong to the RCC to have the fullness of my faith. So the claim is simply nonsensical.

God rules a kingdom, not a democracy. If one cannot obey the Apostles whom he can see, how can he claim to obey God whom he cannot see?

The teaching of an invisible Church puts God at the whims of men, rather than requiring men to repent toward God, Everyone wants to be their own Pope. Where have I heard that before? Rather than be humble and respect those that came before you, it is as though they say you shall be as gods knowing good and evil, What should I trust? my finite understanding or 2000 years of Church history? (here's a hint, the Bible says lean not to your own understanding)

 

[Hentenza]

Jesus and His Church are not arrogant. Saint Ignatius of Antioch died in 107 A.D, and obviously felt his audience was familiar enough with the word "Catholic" to use it in his Epistle:
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the Bishop
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
Wherever the Bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." (Epistle to the Smyrnaens Chapter 8 ).

I didn't say the fullness of "your" faith. What it means is that some Christians have lost some of what was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles. They are still our brothers and sisters in Christ and certainly, like the rest of us, can be saved.

The church was indeed universal during Ignatius time but as an adjective not a noun. The church in Rome was just one of many independent churches at that time. The churches were united in Christ not in ecclesiology. That would come later.

The fullness of my faith comes from God not the RCC.

 

[Valletta]

The church was indeed universal during Ignatius time but as an adjective not a noun. The church in Rome was just one of many independent churches at that time. The churches were united in Christ not in ecclesiology. That would come later.

The fullness of my faith comes from God not the RCC.

Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church. Ignatius was appointed as the bishop of Antioch by our first pope. We share many things in common, the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible. Protestants kept 66 of those books and use the same order of books that the Catholic Church decided upon in the 300s.

 

[Hentenza]

God rules a kingdom, not a democracy. If one cannot obey the Apostles whom he can see, how can he claim to obey God whom he cannot see?

Again, assuming facts not in evidence.

The teaching of an invisible Church puts God at the whims of men, rather than requiring men to repent toward God, Everyone wants to be their own Pope. Where have I heard that before? Rather than be humble and respect those that came before you, it is as though they say you shall be as gods knowing good and evil, What should I trust? my finite understanding or 2000 years of Church history? (here's a hint, the Bible says lean not to your own understanding)

My brother, you go where the Lord takes you and I will go where the Lord takes me. Talking RCC speak is not going to change my mind.

No church is invisible in the eyes of the Lord. Where 3 are gathered in my name there I am. You need to trust the Holy Spirit in which, as Christians, we walk in.

BTW- you are still to respond to my post 220 and to the post with the cathechism quotes that you requested and then quickly ignored.

 

[Hentenza]

Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church. We share many things in common, the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible. Protestants kept 66 of those books and use the same order of books that the Catholic Church decided upon in the 300s.

Jesus is the head of my church. We kept the 66 books of scripture as chosen during the council of Nicea in 325ad. We did not choose the books of the apocrypha chosen later.

 

[Hentenza]

Ignatius was appointed as the bishop of Antioch by our first pope.

Pope Linus? Really? You do know that at least the apostle John was alive until the 90’s right? Why would the independent churches need a pope when an apostle was still alive?

 

[Valletta]

Pope Linus? Really? You do know that at least the apostle John was alive until the 90’s right? Why would the independent churches need a pope when an apostle was still alive?

The ways of God are far above our ways.