Anyone ever read or attend lectures by Dr. Norm Finkelstein?

[Fantine]

Friends heard him speak today. He is the son of Holocaust Survivors whose doctoral thesis was on Zionism but who, in 1982, after Israel attacked Lebanon, became convinced that Israel was creating a holocaust of its own against Palestinians.

He has taught in a number of universities and written several books, including "A Nation on Trial" and "The Holocaust Industry."

I am sorry I missed his speech (at the state capitol.) I think that, as the son of Holocaust survivors, he has an important message for the US and Israel.

To me it almost seems as if the citizens of Israel are suffering massive PTSD--even though most never lived through the Holocaust themselves. The conflicts between Hamas and Israel, greatly exacerbated by Israel's continuous human rights violations and incursions into territory they had not been given in 1948, has also caused residual PTSD.

But at some point people with PTSD have to do whatever they can to heal from their trauma and move on with their lives. Bitterness and revenge will never give them the peace they so badly need.

I may look up his book.

Norman Finkelstein - Wikipedia

 

[Chesterton]

I haven't read him but I've heard him talk online. He's disgusting. An extreme combination of evil and stupidity.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I am a little familiar his track record.

He's the wrong messenger if people are looking for a person who can perhaps "win some people over to a new way of thinking".

In many regards, he's the Jewish equivalent of a Thomas Sowell.


Finkelstein: "Because I'm a Jewish child of Holocaust survivors, that gives me credibility in saying that Jews are just exploiting the holocaust for financial gain" and praising Hezbollah.

Sowell: "Because I'm a Black descendent of slaves who was born and raised in the segregated south in the 30's, that gives me credibility in saying that the mainstream civil rights movement is a sham, and things like affirmative action are just a Democrat power grab"

Both are about equally "not well-received" among the cohort of people they're trying to convince.


Don't get me wrong, they both have some select ideas I agree with depending on the subject... but if the goal is to shift public perceptions, and have that translate into policy changes via voting, that style isn't a particularly effective one.


If we're being honest, Tucker Carlson has a better chance of winning more new people over to the "We shouldn't be unquestioningly supporting the government of Israel" team than Finkelstein.



In terms of the Israeli "PTSD" you're referring to, that's less about the holocaust, and more about the fact that they've been surrounded by hostile neighbors for decades, and seeing young people in other countries portraying it as "the hip thing to do" to oppose them and praise their enemies.

I mentioned before that it was a major tactical error on the part of of US progressives to make the "Anti-Netanyahu"/"Anti Israeli Government" movement into a "Pro Palestinian"/"Pro Iran" movement.

If there's a conflict between two entities, you can oppose what one entity is doing without being a shameless cheerleader for the other team.

If the Crips were doing a bunch of uniquely bad stuff, I'm not going to try to counter that or voice my displeasure with that by attending "Pro Bloods" rallies and sticking a red bandana in my back pocket.

We need to stop looking at the Israel/Palestine conflict like it was WWE Smackdown. There's not always a clear cut "babyface" and "heel" in a conflict... sometimes it's "bad heel vs. worse heel"

 

[Chesterton]

In many regards, he's the Jewish equivalent of a Thomas Sowell.

No, not at all. Sowell has the receipts; he has facts to back up everything he says. Finkelstein is just a liar.

 

[Fantine]

I have always championed underdogs, but the Gazans aren't underdogs.
They are more akin to Christian slaves bring thrown to the lions in the arena. I played with the children of holocaust survivors growing up on Long Island. I acknowledge and sympathize with them but what is being done is indescribably immoral.
I know how hard it can be for a nation to rid themselves of a brutal dictator.
Living here, how could I not?
But God does not accept acquiescence.

 

[ozso]

I have always championed underdogs, but the Gazans aren't underdogs.
They are more akin to Christian slaves bring thrown to the lions in the arena. I played with the children of holocaust survivors growing up on Long Island. I acknowledge and sympathize with them but what is being done is indescribably immoral.
I know how hard it can be for a nation to rid themselves of a brutal dictator.
Living here, how could I not?
But God does not accept acquiescence.

Yahya Sinwar is the true main villain responsible for what's happened to Gaza and the suffering of Gazan civilians.

This is the monster you should be upset with:

Yahya Sinwar (Sin War).

 

[Always in His Presence]

Let's take a moment and look at what is happening and why

October 7, 2023

• • Scale: Hamas launched a surprise, multipronged assault involving land, sea, and air.
  • Rocket Barrage: Over 5,000 rockets were fired into Israel in the initial wave.
  • Ground Infiltration: Fighters breached security barriers, used motorboats, motorcycles, and even powered parachutes to enter Israeli territory.
  • Casualties:
    • Israeli deaths: Over 1,200 people killed, mostly civilians.
    • Hostages: More than 240 individuals were taken hostage.
  • Result: Israel declared a state of war for the first time since 1973.
    
• • 
    
  • Hamas Tunnels and bunkers in Schools and Hospitals:
  • Hospitals as Command Centers
    • Shifa Hospital: Hamas reportedly built a command center beneath Gaza’s largest hospital, Shifa. Intelligence sources and journalists have documented its use as a base of operations since at least 2007.
    • Use of Medical Facilities: Hamas has allegedly stored weapons and conducted military activities in hospitals, violating the Geneva Conventions which prohibit using medical units to shield military objectives.
  • 
    Schools and U.N. Facilities
    
    ⚖️ Legal and Ethical Implications
    
    Rocket Launch Sites: The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) released photos and videos showing Hamas rocket launchers placed near or inside U.N.-run schools and warehouses. These facilities are supposed to be protected under international law.
    • Civilian Shielding: Hamas has been accused of firing rockets from areas near kindergartens, mosques, and playgrounds, effectively using civilians as human shields.
    • Double War Crime: Israeli officials describe Hamas’ tactics as “double war crimes”—targeting civilians while launching attacks from protected civilian sites.
    • International Law Violations: These actions breach the Geneva Conventions and additional protocols that prohibit the use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes.
  • 
    
    Hamas using citizens as human shields:
    
    
  • Documented Strategies and Statements
    • Tunnel Infrastructure: Hamas has built over 500 kilometers of tunnels in Gaza, primarily to protect its fighters and facilitate attacks. These tunnels are not designed for civilian shelter, which Hamas officials have admitted. Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas leader, stated the tunnels are “meant to protect us”—referring to Hamas, not civilians.
    • Evacuation Defiance: During Israeli military operations, Hamas has reportedly instructed civilians to ignore evacuation warnings. For example, Eyad al-Bozom, a Hamas spokesman, told residents to “stay put in your homes,” despite IDF advisories to evacuate for safety.
    • Rooftop Shielding: In 2006, Hamas leader Nizar Rayan called on civilians to gather on rooftops of homes targeted by the IDF to prevent airstrikes. This tactic was praised internally as “nonviolent resistance” but condemned internationally as reckless and exploitative.
    Civilian Infrastructure
    • Hamas has embedded military assets in densely populated areas, including schools, mosques, and hospitals. This intertwining of military and civilian infrastructure makes it difficult for opposing forces to strike without risking civilian casualties.
    ⚖️ International Response
    • The U.S. and other governments have condemned Hamas for these tactics. National Security Council spokesman John Kirby stated that Hamas’s strategy “is the commission of war crimes against the same people Hamas supposedly represents”.
    • Human rights groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have investigated these claims. While some reports found no definitive evidence of human shielding in specific conflicts, they acknowledged Hamas’s use of civilian areas for military operations and its role in discouraging evacuations.
• Hamas stopping it's citizen from getting aid
• • • Drone Footage and IDF Claims: The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) released drone footage allegedly showing masked gunmen firing at civilians near an aid distribution center in Rafah. The IDF accused Hamas of trying to prevent Palestinians from accessing food, stating that the group is doing “everything in its power” to block aid deliveries.
    • Mass Casualties: On June 1, 2025, over 170 people were wounded and at least 31 killed near the aid site. The International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed treating hundreds of casualties, many with gunshot and shrapnel wounds. Witnesses said the victims were trying to reach food supplies
• • IDF Intelligence: Captured Hamas documents reveal that the group has a formal policy of seizing 15–25% of all aid entering Gaza. Portions are allocated to Hamas fighters, government entities, and movement operatives, while some aid is sold to civilians at inflated prices.
  • Black Market Sales: Hamas reportedly stores aid in warehouses and sells it on the black market, profiting from the desperation of civilians. This includes food, medicine, and even cigarettes smuggled into Gaza.
  Blocking Distribution
  • Aid Diversion: According to the United Nations, up to 90% of aid trucks have failed to reach their intended destinations due to looting and interference. Hamas has been accused of rerouting aid to its supporters while excluding the general population.
  • Control Through Scarcity: Analysts suggest Hamas uses control of food as a tool of power. By monopolizing aid distribution, it maintains leverage over civilians and undermines independent relief efforts.
  Funding Terror Operations
  • Revenue Streams: In addition to aid confiscation, Hamas raises funds through protection rackets, informal banking transfers, and smuggling operations. These activities help sustain its military wing and governance structures.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Let's look at freedoms in Israel vs Palestine:

• • Women’s rights are limited, with inadequate protection from gender-based violence
  Summary Table
  
  

  Freedom Type	Israel	Palestinian Territories
  Elections	Free and regular	No national elections since 2006
  Speech & Press	Protected	Suppressed, journalists detained
  Assembly & Protest	Legal and protected	Often restricted or violently dispersed
  Religion	Freedom for all faiths	Limited, especially under Hamas
  LGBTQ+ Rights	Legal recognition and events	Criminalized or socially persecuted
  Movement	Free travel	Severely restricted, especially in Gaza
  Women’s Rights	Legal protections	Limited enforcement and protections

  
  
  This is who the left is protecting and calling victims. Facts - not feelings.

All info from AI because it is faster and not politically biased in most circumstances

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Friends heard him speak today. He is the son of Holocaust Survivors whose doctoral thesis was on Zionism but who, in 1982, after Israel attacked Lebanon, became convinced that Israel was creating a holocaust of its own against Palestinians.

He has taught in a number of universities and written several books, including "A Nation on Trial" and "The Holocaust Industry."

I am sorry I missed his speech (at the state capitol.) I think that, as the son of Holocaust survivors, he has an important message for the US and Israel.

To me it almost seems as if the citizens of Israel are suffering massive PTSD--even though most never lived through the Holocaust themselves. The conflicts between Hamas and Israel, greatly exacerbated by Israel's continuous human rights violations and incursions into territory they had not been given in 1948, has also caused residual PTSD.

But at some point people with PTSD have to do whatever they can to heal from their trauma and move on with their lives. Bitterness and revenge will never give them the peace they so badly need.

I may look up his book.

Norman Finkelstein - Wikipedia

Yes. I have been following him for years. Now his fears have come to fruition.

 

[RileyG]

I haven't read him but I've heard him talk online. He's disgusting. An extreme combination of evil and stupidity.

I am not aware of him at all. May have to listen to him speak.

 

[Fantine]

Let's look at freedoms in Israel vs Palestine:

• • Women’s rights are limited, with inadequate protection from gender-based violence
  Summary Table
  
  

  Freedom Type	Israel	Palestinian Territories
  Elections	Free and regular	No national elections since 2006
  Speech & Press	Protected	Suppressed, journalists detained
  Assembly & Protest	Legal and protected	Often restricted or violently dispersed
  Religion	Freedom for all faiths	Limited, especially under Hamas
  LGBTQ+ Rights	Legal recognition and events	Criminalized or socially persecuted
  Movement	Free travel	Severely restricted, especially in Gaza
  Women’s Rights	Legal protections	Limited enforcement and protections

  
  
  This is who the left is protecting and calling victims. Facts - not feelings.

All info from AI because it is faster and not politically biased in most circumstances

Freedom for all faiths? Tell me another. Two hour checkpoints. Palestinians banned from traveling. Even when Gaza was not under siege, noise bombs that broke windows.
I guess you are thinking apartheid rights?

 

[BCP1928]

Let's look at freedoms in Israel vs Palestine:

• • Women’s rights are limited, with inadequate protection from gender-based violence
  Summary Table
  
  

  Freedom Type	Israel	Palestinian Territories
  Elections	Free and regular	No national elections since 2006
  Speech & Press	Protected	Suppressed, journalists detained
  Assembly & Protest	Legal and protected	Often restricted or violently dispersed
  Religion	Freedom for all faiths	Limited, especially under Hamas
  LGBTQ+ Rights	Legal recognition and events	Criminalized or socially persecuted
  Movement	Free travel	Severely restricted, especially in Gaza
  Women’s Rights	Legal protections	Limited enforcement and protections

  
  
  This is who the left is protecting and calling victims. Facts - not feelings.

All info from AI because it is faster and not politically biased in most circumstances

Seems rather odd to compare the human rights situation in a sovereign parliamentary democracy with a nationalist insurgency.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Freedom for all faiths? Tell me another. Two hour checkpoints. Palestinians banned from traveling. Even when Gaza was not under siege, noise bombs that broke windows.
I guess you are thinking apartheid rights?

No - just reporting unbiased facts

 

[Fantine]

No - just reporting unbiased facts

Looks like alternative facts to me. An AIPAC promo.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No, not at all. Sowell has the receipts; he has facts to back up everything he says. Finkelstein is just a liar.

To be clear, neither of them have "objective facts".

They're both PhDs in soft sciences (Economics and Philosophy in the case of Sowell, and Poli Sci in the case of Finkelstein) -- which means they have "subjective expertise" through credentialism.

In the soft sciences, you can choose your own "receipts" so to speak.

Rule of Thumb, if two people in the same discipline can both win Nobel Prizes with polar opposite ideas and assertions, it's not an objective science.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Looks like alternative facts to me. An AIPAC promo.

You have not offered anything factual, so thanks for your opinion. Duly noted