Anyone else disturbed by the idea of Left Behind Games?

[RenHoek]

I believe I made my point very clear on this matter, and for the simple fact that you are continuing to question me on this in a debative manner, it is evident that you don't agree with what I said.

Very true, I do not agree, and you could help me gain some understanding to your position by answering my questions in a non-condescending, non-faith-questioning, and frankly, a more Christian manner.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

My point, had you bothered to here it before assaulting my faith like a first person shooter (if I may use the comparison), is as follows:

Please note: It doesn't matter if it is fiction or not! Games that promote these things are not inspired by God, but by the devil.

Is not Revelation inspired by God?

The stories we tell our kids of the Old Testament heroes are chock full of violence and sex. What makes these different?

In my opinion, it is the context in which we receive them. If we are in a Christ honoring context, i.e. showing a plausible end to a prophecy in Revelation and acting it out for entertainment, what is the problem? When it is hookers and pimps, i.e. Grand Theft Auto, you may have a point.

By the way, if you can't see how games that promote violence, sexual immorality, sorcery, etc..., are contrary to the teaching inculcated in Phil. 4:8, then you really need to spend some more time reading your Bible.

Again, If you can not see the difference between glorification and depiction…
Is all fiction evil? If not, What is the line?

It would do you well to understand that behind every idea, there lies a worldview that propels it.

It may do you well to realize that we are all very different members of the same body. What you find value in may not be the same as another. Because you find it offensive or wrong, does not make it wrong for all.

1 Corinthians 12:
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.

1 Corinthians 10:
29 "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

And where there is a worldview there is an influential factor that will either draw us closer to Christ, or drive us away from Him.

And a Biblically based, albeit loosely, video game is incapable of bringing people closer to Christ?

 

[Quick]

I think there has been a misunderstanding about what Christianity actually is. Christianity is something different from what people think it is, from the comments on this thread.

Christianity is not simply a thought system where we experience moral growth and learn to love each other more. It is also a thought system where we attempt to convert one another to worship our sovereign God who ruined the people of Sodom and Gemorrah for their homosexuality. And if they will not convert to the worship of our God, we are rightly to consider them the enemies of God and our enemies. They are the children of the devil.

Although the time may not yet be ripe, there will be a time, as described in Revelations, when, with God's help, we will restore God's law to the civil legal system. There will be a time when we are called to defend the faith against godless enemies of God. There will be a time when we shall cull all distorters of the true gospel from within our midst.

God is not simply a God of love, but also a God of holiness and justice, which involves the destruction and ruin of all his enemies;

Matthew 10:34-36 (New International Version)
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw— a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
​

 

[RenHoek]

I think there has been a misunderstanding about what Christianity actually is. Christianity is something different from what people think it is, from the comments on this thread.

Christianity is not simply a thought system where we experience moral growth and learn to love each other more. It is also a thought system where we attempt to convert one another to worship our sovereign God who ruined the people of Sodom and Gemorrah for their homosexuality. And if they will not convert to the worship of our God, we are rightly to consider them the enemies of God and our enemies. They are the children of the devil.

Although the time may not yet be ripe, there will be a time, as described in Revelations, when, with God's help, we will restore God's law to the civil legal system. There will be a time when we are called to defend the faith against godless enemies of God. There will be a time when we shall cull all distorters of the true gospel from within our midst.


God is not simply a God of love, but also a God of holiness and justice, which involves the destruction and ruin of all his enemies;

Matthew 10:34-36 (New International Version)
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw— a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

​

Price of tea in China?

 

[Quick]

Price of tea in China?

The point is, that the "Praise the Lord, pass the ammunition" Christians have understood a dimension of the religion that a lot of worldly Christians have missed. And the video game, which imagines an epic struggle between the children of God and the children of Satan, is similar to Biblical teaching. We need to be prepared, and the video game might help us.

Luke 12:49-53 (New International Version)
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.

 

[RenHoek]

The point is, that the "Praise the Lord, pass the ammunition" Christians have understood a dimension of the religion that a lot of worldly Christians have missed. And the video game, which imagines an epic struggle between the children of God and the children of Satan, is similar to Biblical teaching. We need to be prepared, and the video game might help us.

Luke 12:49-53 (New International Version)
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.

Thanks for the clarification, I was not following completely.

Although we need to make sure our divisions are not in The Body.

 

[woobadooba]

Very true, I do not agree, and you could help me gain some understanding to your position by answering my questions in a non-condescending, non-faith-questioning, and frankly, a more Christian manner.

You don't agree that for every idea (this includes games) there is a worldview behind it which either draws people closer to Christ, or drives them away from Him?

Is not Revelation inspired by God?

The stories we tell our kids of the Old Testament heroes are chock full of violence and sex. What makes these different?

But what is the worldview behind the Bible? See 2Tim. 3:15-17

In my opinion, it is the context in which we receive them. If we are in a Christ honoring context, i.e. showing a plausible end to a prophecy in Revelation and acting it out for entertainment, what is the problem?

Correction: it is not the context in which we receive it that makes it either right or wrong, but the context in which it was written that makes it right or wrong. Hence, the end does not justify the means, but the means must justify themselves.

When it is hookers and pimps, i.e. Grand Theft Auto, you may have a point.

"may have a point"?

Again, If you can not see the difference between glorification and depiction…

How could you depict something without promoting it?

By the way, just because you promote something that doesn't mean you are glorifying it.

In any case, we need to be sensitive to the fact that the devil is doing all that he can to promote his ideas; and he will use whatever means are necessary to accomplish this end--even images.

You would be surprised by what an image can do to the human psyche in terms of shaping the way we look at life. There is a reason why it has been said, "a picture is worth a thousand words."

Is all fiction evil? If not, What is the line?

Phil. 4:8 should inform you of where the line is.

It may do you well to realize that we are all very different members of the same body. What you find value in may not be the same as another. Because you find it offensive or wrong, does not make it wrong for all.

1 Corinthians 12:
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.

Yes, but Paul also said, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1Cor. 1:10

And a Biblically based, albeit loosely, video game is incapable of bringing people closer to Christ?

That all depends on what the REAL worldview is that is behind the game.

We need to discipline ourselves to recognize the subtle compromises of the truth to discern these things. What better way to do this than to go to the Holy Scriptures!

If we want the truth God will give it to us; but the truth doesn't always come to us in a pleasant way.

Nevertheless, if we are just simply looking for something that is pleasant to the ears, then chances are we won't discover the truth which has the power to set us free from error of sin. Istead, we will remain in bondage to the powers thereof.

 

[Entertaining_Angels]

Yes, I'd imagine if Jesus had been on earth during these times, He would have armed the Apostles with this game and told them to practice.

<<shakes head and still thinks this is about money and appealing to the world>>

 

[Quick]

God sometimes orders people to execute justice without mercy upon other people. This is a reality about Christianity that all of us, and not just closely faithful Biblical Christians, should realize. We should not be conformed to the world, but should take our understandings and thoughts from the Bible.

Deuteronomy 7:16 (New International Version)
You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
​

 

[woobadooba]

God sometimes orders people to execute justice without mercy upon other people. This is a reality about Christianity that all of us, and not just closely faithful Biblical Christians, should realize. We should not be conformed to the world, but should take our understandings and thoughts from the Bible.

Deuteronomy 7:16 (New International Version)
You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

​

There is a difference between going to war to protect your land, and going to war for purposes of entertaining oneself.

 

[RenHoek]

You don't agree that for every idea (this includes games) there is a worldview behind it which either draws people closer to Christ, or drives them away from Him?

I find many things to be neutral. Riding a bike, physical exercise, eating a grape, and, in my view, playing a game for entertainment.
Now what draws or pushes is the mindset behind the actions. If I ride that bike to a brothel, or if I eat the grape to the glory of Zeus, or if I exercise so I can be more attractive in a promiscuous lifestyle, then those activities would be in question.
If I ride my bike to church, eat the grape with a thankful heart to He who provided it, or exercise to keep my temple strong and healthy out of respect for He who created it, those same activities would be good.
I would, again, agree that a GTA would be a poor choice in regard to the entertainment being sought, but I routinely play a fighting game, DOA Hardcore, with a strong brother in Christ. The game is no more than a good-natured wresting match in the cyber realm.

But what is the worldview behind the Bible? See 2Tim. 3:15-17

Agreed. So, to me, this makes the context the important indicator as to whether something is good bad or indifferent.

Correction: it is not the context in which we receive it that makes it either right or wrong, but the context in which it was written that makes it right or wrong. Hence, the end does not justify the means, but the means must justify themselves.

How do you reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 8? It is specifically in regard to how the food is received that makes it good or bad, not how it came to that state.

"may have a point"?

I am not willing to say that it would be forbidden for the strong of faith, but this is not something I would defend readily either. It does not glorify (as far as I know, I’ve not played it but for a moment to realize it was a crumby game) the harlot or pimp, rather they are within the context of the game in a world of crime. Let’s stick to the Left Behind for now brother, I have hope for some common ground on that one.

How could you depict something without promoting it?

If I made a painting of the Christians being killed in the Roman Coliseum. I would not say it is a promotion of Christian killing, rather a depiction thereof.
If I wrote a fictitious novel about the exploits of Satan in the world, that does not mean I am promoting Satan, but rather depicting him in the context of the story.

In any case, we need to be sensitive to the fact that the devil is doing all that he can to promote his ideas; and he will use whatever means are necessary to accomplish this end--even images.

Agreed, but I find by railing too hard against the, in my opinion, innocuous, it is the Christian doing the promoting. I believe that there are a good many things that would go away if those who were anti would not give them the publicity of outrage.

Phil. 4:8 should inform you of where the line is.

Phil. 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

If I may break this down:
We are to focus on –
Truth – one source, God
Honorable – we tread on subjectivity here – is entertainment honorable?
Right – not conflicting with God’s laws – I do not see how an end time game goes against His precepts
Pure – innocent, free from sin – see "right"
Lovely – acceptable, pleasing
Good repute - uttering words of good omen, speaking auspiciously
Excellence - a virtuous course of thought, feeling and action - virtue, moral goodness - any particular moral excellence, as modesty, purity – Again, the game is based on Revelation
Worthy of praise – I feel that those who can make inroads into a culture with a Biblical message are worthy of praise.

My point is that much of this is subjective, and I think there is a wide range of acceptable views given the role we fill in the body.

Yes, but Paul also said, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1Cor. 1:10

In the context of the letter, he is speaking specifically about people dividing themselves as disciples of Paul or whomever. He is exhorting them to focus on Christ, not their current earthly minister. In my view, this is a call to be united in Christ on the Gospel.

That all depends on what the REAL worldview is that is behind the game.

I am not sure what this means…

We need to discipline ourselves to recognize the subtle compromises of the truth to discern these things. What better way to do this than to go to the Holy Scriptures!

We must also understand that we can not be too legalistic and forgo the freedom we have under grace.

If we want the truth God will give it to us; but the truth doesn't always come to us in a pleasant way.

Agreed, sometimes it comes in the form of a video game. had to do it sorry.

 

[RenHoek]

Yes, I'd imagine if Jesus had been on earth during these times, He would have armed the Apostles with this game and told them to practice.

<<shakes head and still thinks this is about money and appealing to the world>>

Respectfully disagrees and thinks it is being the salt of the Earth and adding flavor.

 

[RenHoek]

There is a difference between going to war to protect your land, and going to war for purposes of entertaining oneself.

What would be the difference between this game and playing cowboys and indians? Watching a movie on the War of 1812?

 

[woobadooba]

I find many things to be neutral.

I assumed you would understand what I meant...

When I speak of every idea as having a worldview behind it I am referring to ideas within the context of movies, books, and games.

It's a simple fact that there are both good and bad movies, books, and games.

It is not immoral for us to watch movies, read books, or play games. Nevertheless, it is our responsibility to avoid the bad ones, because by nature they are immoral. That is, they promote immoral ideas.

How do you reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 8? It is specifically in regard to how the food is received that makes it good or bad, not how it came to that state.

We are not talking about food, but ideas. There is a difference. For, if I were to take this argument of yours to its final conclusion anything could be justified as long as we receive it with thanksgiving. Certainly you wouldn't agree with that would you? Of course not! But that is what your argument suggests whether you realise it or not.

I am not willing to say that it would be forbidden for the strong of faith, but this is not something I would defend readily either. It does not glorify (as far as I know, I&#8217;ve not played it but for a moment to realize it was a crumby game) the harlot or pimp, rather they are within the context of the game in a world of crime. Let&#8217;s stick to the Left Behind for now brother, I have hope for some common ground on that one.

Actually, the strong in the faith would be wise enough to avoid it, while those who are weak in the faith would declare it to be harmless.

If I made a painting of the Christians being killed in the Roman Coliseum. I would not say it is a promotion of Christian killing, rather a depiction thereof.

But that painting is there for a reason. It depicts the thoughts of the painter, and thus promotes his worldview. You should check into reading some of Francis Schaeffer's books. Then you will understand what I mean.

My point is that much of this is subjective, and I think there is a wide range of acceptable views given the role we fill in the body.

Phil. 4:8 subjective? You need to read it more closely. How would you know what is good if you did not have some absolute Goodness by which to measure it to make that determination?

The passage does not say, "Think on those things that are good to you", but instructs us to think on good things. Period.

And where else will you find a better place to see the good that God wants us to think on, but in the Bible?

In the context of the letter, he is speaking specifically about people dividing themselves as disciples of Paul or whomever. He is exhorting them to focus on Christ, not their current earthly minister. In my view, this is a call to be united in Christ on the Gospel.

But there is no escaping the fact that Christ wants us to support the same ethics and principles as His body of believers.

We must also understand that we can not be too legalistic and forgo the freedom we have under grace.

And yet we must understand that God's grace is not a license to sin.

 

[RenHoek]

When I speak of every idea as having a worldview behind it I am referring to ideas within the context of movies, books, and games.

Like End time prophecy as in the case of this game? I am not sure what the “worldview” problem is with this.

Nevertheless, it is our responsibility to avoid the bad ones, because by nature they are immoral. That is, they promote immoral ideas.

I do not share your opinion that the nature of a game, as based on Revelation, is immoral. Were the Left Behind books immoral in your opinion?

We are not talking about food, but ideas. There is a difference. For, if I were to take this argument of yours to its final conclusion anything could be justified as long as we receive it with thanksgiving. Certainly you wouldn't agree with that would you? Of course not! But that is what your argument suggests whether you realise it or not.

Food, ideas, Cracker Jack toys. If it is not specifically sin, it is, in my opinion, neutral. What we do with it makes our actions a sin or not. Everything that is not called out as sin can be justified as long as we receive it with thanksgiving.

But that painting is there for a reason.

Agreed.

It depicts the thoughts of the painter

Agreed.

and thus promotes his worldview.

Not necessarily. People get very different things from art. One person may see it and see the plight of the Christian, and another may love it because it is killing Christians. The painting itself does not necessarily promote either, as it could have just been a vision in the painter’s head. Is the painting good or evil based on the above? The painter?

You should check into reading some of Francis Schaeffer's books.

I am gaining an understanding of where you are coming from, but I disagree so far.

Phil. 4:8 subjective? You need to read it more closely. How would you know what is good if you did not have some absolute Goodness by which to measure it to make that determination?

If pressed, could you come up with a list of all the things on the Earth and put them in a good category and a bad category?

The passage does not say, "Think on those things that are good to you", but instructs us to think on good things. Period.

What is good? Scripture? Revelation?

But there is no escaping the fact that Christ wants us to support the same ethics and principles as His body of believers.

I am not convinced of that. Why then is it wrong for one to eat the food of idols and not the other?

And yet we must understand that God's grace is not a license to sin.

Agreed absolutely. I believe sin to you and me is different because sin is what is against God’s will, and His will for your life is not the same as it is for mine. How then do we get absolutes?

 

[woobadooba]

Like End time prophecy as in the case of this game? I am not sure what the &#8220;worldview&#8221; problem is with this.

I do not share your opinion that the nature of a game, as based on Revelation, is immoral. Were the Left Behind books immoral in your opinion?
Food, ideas, Cracker Jack toys. If it is not specifically sin, it is, in my opinion, neutral. What we do with it makes our actions a sin or not. Everything that is not called out as sin can be justified as long as we receive it with thanksgiving.

Agreed.
Agreed.

Not necessarily. People get very different things from art. One person may see it and see the plight of the Christian, and another may love it because it is killing Christians. The painting itself does not necessarily promote either, as it could have just been a vision in the painter&#8217;s head. Is the painting good or evil based on the above? The painter?

I am gaining an understanding of where you are coming from, but I disagree so far.
If pressed, could you come up with a list of all the things on the Earth and put them in a good category and a bad category?

What is good? Scripture? Revelation?

I am not convinced of that. Why then is it wrong for one to eat the food of idols and not the other?

Agreed absolutely. I believe sin to you and me is different because sin is what is against God&#8217;s will, and His will for your life is not the same as it is for mine. How then do we get absolutes?

At this point this is just fruitless. I perceive that you want to argue just for the sake of arguing. So I'm going to move on to something else now.

 

[RenHoek]

At this point this is just fruitless. I perceive that you want to argue just for the sake of arguing. So I'm going to move on to something else now.

OK. I am not just trying to argue, I am looking to understand where others are coming from. It is always interesting to me to have scripture quoted back and forth and come to different conclusions.

I think this is cool how the Body works; with it’s differing and sometimes opposing parts.

I did not want to be argumentative and I am sorry if I came across that way. Iron sharpens iron brother, and I thank you for your assistance.