Anybody here a Trinitarian Universalist?

[Azaka]

Hi Azaka.

Here is my view.

The Father created the human race for inclusion in His life - to be adopted (Eph 1)

With the entrance of sin, humanity began walking down the road of alienation, blindness, lostness and even perhaps into non-being. (Athanasius)

The Father would not tolerate our existence like this, and He sent the Son to rescue us - the whole darn lot.

He sent the Son to search us out, hoist us up on His shoulders and carry us home. This was what was accomplished in the life, death, resurrection and ascension.

Everybody, and I mean everybody, will be locked in the embrace of the Father upon thier death. There is no question of Heaven Vs hell. All people are in the Father's arms. The love of God is inescapable.

This does not imply in any way that love can be forced. It cannot. It must be freely chosen. But who say our free choice to love God (or not love God) determines whether we go to Heaven or hell?

Ephesians 1 says we are adopted. Think of an adopted child. We have friends who just adopted an Indian girl about 3 years old. This girl had no knowledge of the process that was going on to secure her adoption. She had no choice in the matter. The people that wanted her home with them just set about and made it so. She has no free will on this matter - she is now a sharer in thier life, and living in thier embrace.

Now here's the 'free will' part.

She had no choice in getting this new existence. If she wants her new existence, then she will enjoy it. It will be the best thing ever. HEAVEN

If she does not want it and yet cannot escape it, then it is the worst thing ever. HELL

In either example her situation is no different, but her experience of it is opposite.

Heaven and hell are not geographical categories, but relational ones.

Heaven is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and loving it.

Hell is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and hating it - and being unable to escape.

Thanks a lot, Pete; that really helped. One more quick question (and I apologize if this has already been addressed on this thread): do you believe descendents of Adam alone are included in this universal reconciliation, or are fallen angels included as well? Just wondering - the answer to this question is not critical to my acceptance of this view (and I'm definitely leaning towards it already, I just need to study it a little more). Thanks again,

Azaka

 

[john14_20]

Thanks a lot, Pete; that really helped. One more quick question (and I apologize if this has already been addressed on this thread): do you believe descendents of Adam alone are included in this universal reconciliation, or are fallen angels included as well? Just wondering - the answer to this question is not critical to my acceptance of this view (and I'm definitely leaning towards it already, I just need to study it a little more). Thanks again,

Azaka

Hi Azaka

I have written a preliminary research paper on the topic. It is about 6000 words, so it still leaves much unsaid.

It will be expanded in the future as I have time.

If you want a copy, just pm me.

As for the angels thing, I have not addressed it in the paper.

I try to restrict myself to discussing what the Bible teaches us, and the Bible does not make it clear regarding this.

So I really don't know.

What it has made clear is that the entire human race has been reconciled to the Father through the work of the Son.

It has also made clear that God is Gracious, Kind, Patient and Loving.

It is Biblically clear that where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

It is clear that death has no victory and hell will not prevail.

It is abundantly clear that while the entire human race died in Adam, the entire human race has been given life in Christ.

As Iraneaus says, "What was lost in Adam was restored in Christ"

Or as I put it, "The cure must be as universal as the disease"

If it were not, then we must conclude that Adam has had a greater impact on the human race than Jesus Christ has!

Any doctrinal position on hell must be faithful to these things.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[CaDan]

I just put on some Universalist goggles and read a couple of Chick tracts.

It was funny, weird, and sad, all at the same time.

--
I am one.

 

[Starstreak M86]

I just put on some Universalist goggles and read a couple of Chick tracts.

It was funny, weird, and sad, all at the same time.

--
I am one.

Yes. To a Universalist, Jack Chick, Dobson, LaHaye, Robertson, Lindsay and the others are very sad indeed.

To me, they sound alot more like priests from the Catholic Counter-Reformation than Protestants.

 

[Abiel]

I've just been preparing a christian ladies meeting- topic the Netherlands. I made lots of cheesey(!) links between faith and cheese, faith and windmills, faith and clogs,etc etc- then I tried tulips.

I came across this Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable grace, Perserverance of the saints thing t.u.l.i.p... I was stunned! Suppose you all have heard of this, so no surprise to you, but it left me gobsmacked.

Think I'll stick to the beauty of the created world through tulips... If it comes down to a choice between t.u.l.i.p and universalism, it's easy. Probably not that simple though.

It would have been great if God had been a bit clearer in his book.

 

[john14_20]

Hi Abiel


TULIP is the acronym for the belief of Calvinism.

It is very well known in the US but not so well here in Australia for we are an Arminian country (mainly)

Blessings, Pete

 

[Abiel]

I have always suspected I wasn't a Calvinist...now I know for sure! My church is officially Arminian, but stuffed to the brim with Calvinists who chuck a couple of bible verses at you and say 'what are you going to do about that!' Normally I just smile sweetly, but I'm with William Booth who said something like 'Calvinism...that horrible doctrine!'

 

[john14_20]

I have always suspected I wasn't a Calvinist...now I know for sure! My church is officially Arminian, but stuffed to the brim with Calvinists who chuck a couple of bible verses at you and say 'what are you going to do about that!' Normally I just smile sweetly, but I'm with William Booth who said something like 'Calvinism...that horrible doctrine!'

Ahh yes, how true.

But then, I'm not too keen on Arminianism either!

Looks like I'm nobody's friend

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[Abiel]

Ahh yes, how true.

But then, I'm not too keen on Arminianism either!

Looks like I'm nobody's friend

Blessings to all, Pete

Is there another alternative???

 

[john14_20]

Is there another alternative???

Yes there is.

It takes very seriously the Calvinist position of the sovereignty of God, predestination, and His primary place in the salvation of humanity. But it also takes seriously the Arminian emphasis on free will.

The reason the Calvinists and Arminians have been arguing about this for so long (without resolution) is that neither side can see that they both contain some truth, but not all of it.

Karl Barth, the famous 20th Century theologian, has hammered out a view on this that is thoroughly Christ-centred.

If you wish to discuss his position, let me know.

Blessings in Christ, Pete

 

[Abiel]

Yes there is.

It takes very seriously the Calvinist position of the sovereignty of God, predestination, and His primary place in the salvation of humanity. But it also takes seriously the Arminian emphasis on free will.

The reason the Calvinists and Arminians have been arguing about this for so long (without resolution) is that neither side can see that they both contain some truth, but not all of it.

Karl Barth, the famous 20th Century theologian, has hammered out a view on this that is thoroughly Christ-centred.

If you wish to discuss his position, let me know.

Blessings in Christ, Pete

Recomend me a book(intelligent but not too intellectual!) and I will endeavour to read it!

 

[Abiel]

I like the idea of being able to say, in response to the question 'are you arminian or calvinist'...'neither...i am a barthian'!

 

[john14_20]

Recomend me a book(intelligent but not too intellectual!) and I will endeavour to read it!

Great! It's a tough question though.

Barth is hard to read and he never sat down to write a short book on any one topic.

His theology is found in the famous "Church Dogmatics"

It is a 12 volume set and contains over 6 million words!

The Arminian / Calvinism question revolves around the doctrine of predestination/election.

The Calvinist believes that God elects one person and not another, by His own choice.

The Arminain believes that God elects the people that He knows in advance will respond to the Gospel.

Either way, the result is a portion of the human race is elect, and the rest are not.

Barth proposed that only one man is elect - Jesus Christ.

In Christ however, the entire human race has been elected.

This is due to the union between Christ and us that He forged.

Everything else flows out of this understanding.

The best place to get a easy to read and short essay on the topic is at the link below.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/ebooks_barth_sample.html

It will cost you 5 bucks to downolad and it is a great summary article of Barth's thought here.

I don't agree exactly with everything the guy says, but I like it alot.

If you want to talk about it, we could start a thread.

While not dedicated to the Arminian / Calvinism debate, "Worship, Community and Triune God of Grace" by the highly respected Scottish theologian James Torrance is probably one of the best books I have ever read.

It is short, it is cheap and it is easy to read.

He was a student of Barth's and the Barthian theology comes through strongly.

Also not dealing with our subject matter directly, "The Mystery Of Christ" by Robert Farar Capon is my other favourite book.

It too, is short, cheap and an easy read.

Blessings in Christ, Pete.

 

[Abiel]

HAve found a book on my own shelf called 'The HIstory of Christian Thought' Who needs 12 volumes when you can have 11 pages of Barth!

I will start a thread when I have read all 11 pages...not a moment sooner!

 

[Abiel]

HAve just discovered a historical reason for the 'invention' of Calvinism...it starts to be understandable.
Of course you all knew this anyway, but it turns out to be to do with needing to identify who or what the church was ie that thing tied in with nation, or government or whatever- or actual christian people. I think I get it!

 

[disciple00]

who cares what you can define youself as, God made us let God define us, God has the right. as far as God saving all, that's what it says in the bible, i don't see why so may christians don't believe it... read the second chapter of timothy, all will come to knowledge of the truth (jesus) thre wasa grat thread on this subject i'll see if i can get yall a link... here we are http://www.christianforums.com/t674654 read it over, they went over everything in that thread...
anyhow, God bless you all

disciple00

 

[Abiel]

who cares what you can define youself as, God made us let God define us, God has the right.

I'm sure there is truth in that... but I still want to be settled and happy that the basis of what I believe is biblical, and that I can talk about what I believe without sounding like a gibbering fool. Hence I try to learn. I learn by reading. And then by talking stuff through.
For me the christian journey is far from sunshine and lollipops. I have lots of doubts and confusion. I simply wish to learn.
And anyway, even if God can define me as Calvinist, Arminian,Barthian or whatever- why would he want to??? So I can get into the right section of heaven? So He can throw me out?

You see, one thing I am able to do is to see things from other people's points of view-unfortunately too good! This is why I get confused- it all sounds so plausible!
Therefore I try to pray and learn. Some may find it easy to sort out their theology/doctrine- for me it is difficult, because despite what people would have me believe- if I actually read my Bible it raises more questions than answers.

I have in the past toyed with the idea of trying to believe nothing about God, but instead just hang out with him, pray, be humble, obediant to His call etc. But no matter where I go, I always end up being required to believe stuff. Just trying to work it all out, one piece at a time.

 

[disciple00]

I'm sure there is truth in that... but I still want to be settled and happy that the basis of what I believe is biblical, and that I can talk about what I believe without sounding like a gibbering fool. Hence I try to learn. I learn by reading. And then by talking stuff through.
For me the christian journey is far from sunshine and lollipops. I have lots of doubts and confusion. I simply wish to learn.
And anyway, even if God can define me as Calvinist, Arminian,Barthian or whatever- why would he want to??? So I can get into the right section of heaven? So He can throw me out?

You see, one thing I am able to do is to see things from other people's points of view-unfortunately too good! This is why I get confused- it all sounds so plausible!
Therefore I try to pray and learn. Some may find it easy to sort out their theology/doctrine- for me it is difficult, because despite what people would have me believe- if I actually read my Bible it raises more questions than answers.

I have in the past toyed with the idea of trying to believe nothing about God, but instead just hang out with him, pray, be humble, obediant to His call etc. But no matter where I go, I always end up being required to believe stuff. Just trying to work it all out, one piece at a time.

hey man, it sounds to me like you are too worried about what people think and say. i mean, doyou thnk stephen was worried when the jews drug him out into the street and started throwing rocks at him? remember, the Bible says there is one faith, one Lord, one baptism, why worry, it doesn't matter what you learn, or anything like that, you know Jesus died for your sins, you know eternal life is a gift form God, just Love jesus and be thankful. pray for faith, and God will give you the measure that he wants you to have.

what questions do you have? i would like to hear them, and perhaps i can answer a few... well, God willing... anyhow i gotta go, God bless you man, i'll be sure to pray for you...

disciple00

 

[goodnews]

I do like the sound of this...any scripture to back it up- cos even if I like it, it doesnt make it so.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[goodnews]

another reason
and i think it's the biggest
comes from a little lesson
from game theory:
it's much "safer"
to believe in eternal torment
and be wrong
than to be a universalist
and be wrong
to be totally honest
i think this is one reason
why i haven't really embraced universalism
yet

not only that but there is 'safety' in numbers. I think that many christians still hold onto the eternal torment doctrine simply because it is orthodox and changing ones mind publically would put you outside of the main herd. You need not fear the threats of man, there is no such thing as hell as it is commonly taught. God has given us a way to perfectly love Him through Jesus Christ. Because no one can lose their salvation, we can now serve God without fear, with pure motives no just to save our own hides. Many many people have said to me, 'if we are all saved, then why even try? Why not sin your merry little soul away, Why do anything for God if you're no one's going to hell anyways!!!'

Because Jesus said: If you love me keep MY commandments (nothing to do with the law of Moses by the way)