Anybody here a Trinitarian Universalist?

[Abiel]

Well! That opened a can of worms! My hunt for this bible, not in print in the UK brought me here:

[size=+2]PROBLEM VERSES WITH "AION"[/size][size=-1]by Don C. Hewey[/size][size=-1] Copyright © 1998-1999, "1john57.com" of KJV Apologetics. All rights reserved. disclaimer[/size][size=-1] universal salvation main index[/size]Universalists assume that "aion" is denoting "a period of time" or "an indeterminable amount of time." If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God. Not to also mention, that acceptance of this definition for "aion" also contradicts and denies the universalist defintion of endless life. How can we live endlessly with a God that is "temporarily" righteous, is not immortal, has no glory, is not wise, has no endless kingdom, and does not abide endlessly?
Let us examine some attributes of God within the context of the verse's with the word "aion" contained within these verses:
[size=+2]If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true[/size]

• The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
• The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
• God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
• God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
• God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
• God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
• God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
• God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.
Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].
Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."
John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."
John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."
Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."
Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."
2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."
Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.


Also, I discover that the concordant literal new testament is rather contraversial.

I am going have to think about this.

 

[Starstreak M86]

Ainesis,

Yep! I still have some studying to do also!

Even though I'm pretty much a convinced Universalist, I still have some questions and study to do. There are still some bugs to work out.

But, what ideology doesn't? The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment has it's weak points as well and can be on shaky grounds at times.

 

[john14_20]

Hey there Abiel.

Where ever you cut and pasted that post from, I must say it does not seem to make much sense.

Please explain to me why we must conclude that God is not immortal?

Why is His Kingdom temporary?

Why is His Glory temporary?

(I won't write them all!)

If you give me the actual verses that are problematic I will try and answer your questions.

Further, Hewey writes "If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God."

But tell me how torturing folks alive in a furnace is not contradictory to the attributes of the most High God?

His position is just as problematic.

Blessings to you, Pete

 

[G4m]

I have been a full blooded Trinitarian Incarantional for several years now.

I quit my job to study full time and have nearly completed a degree in theology.

After all this study of Trinitarian Incarnational theology, I have become a Universalist.

The final straw came when I had to research and present a 1 hour lecture on hell.

My lecture went for 3 hours and I attacked the common views of hell being eternal, of hell's punishment having no purpose and other popular doctrines.

I was lucky that my lecturer whilst not in agreement with me at all times, was enjoying the presentation and let me go over time!

Blessings to all, Pete

Pete,

sorry but this sounds so weird. I've wanted to ask for a while how you can be studying theology and be a universalist at the same time? Don't you fail the hell unit? Or doesn't your understanding of even words cut against what is taught?

Sorry, not having a go, I just wonder how it all fits together for you?

 

[john14_20]

Pete,

sorry but this sounds so weird. I've wanted to ask for a while how you can be studying theology and be a universalist at the same time? Don't you fail the hell unit? Or doesn't your understanding of even words cut against what is taught?

Sorry, not having a go, I just wonder how it all fits together for you?

Hi G4

I actually wasn't a universalist when I began studying, but in fact my study in theology led me down the universalist path.

My degree in theology has not been an obstacle to being a universalist, instead it has been the cause.

Don't you fail the hell unit?

ROTFLOL!!!!! (Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud!)

My efforts in the hell unit have just about convinced the lecturer!

Interestingly, I have never met a Christian who has not been a universalist.

Pardon me, you say? Every Christian is a universalist? Ridiculous!

Ahh, but it is true, I say.

Every Christian believes with all of their heart in the universal action of Adam in the fall.

I am one of the Christians that not only believes in the universal act of Adam but also in the universal act of Jesus as well.

1 Cor 15:22 - Gar hosper en Adam pas apotheneako, kai houto en Christos pas zoopoieo.

Literally translated: In exactly the same way that everybody died in Adam, everybody will be given life in Christ.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[john14_20]

Here's a few verses to think about.

1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved

2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth

3. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all

4. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Saviour of the world

5. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Saviour of the world

6. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself

7. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live

8. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

9. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fullness of times

10. Phl 2:9-11-Every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord

11. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved

12. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God

13. Rm 11:32- For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

14. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God

15. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all

16. Rev 21:4,5-No more tears, all things made new

17. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live-How many will hear? Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth

18. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for all

19. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him-How many did the Father give Him? Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things

20. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Saviour of all

21. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed-But hell is called eternal death?

22. La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever. Though He brings grief, He will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love

23. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself


Blessings to all, Pete

 

[john14_20]

Here's a comical look at how we read the Bible, despite what it says!


Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save the Christians

1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Saviour of the believers

Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all who believe unto Himself

Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all are condemned, in Christ some shall live

1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ some live

Eph 1:10-The believers come into Him at the fullness of times

Col 1:20-Christians reconciled unto God

1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Saviour of the Christians



1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be victorious

La 3:31,32-God will cast off forever. Yea He brings grief, and His compassion falters, such is His failing love.



Jn 1:29-The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of those who ask for forgiveness


Blessings to all, Pete

 

[G4m]

Hi G4

I actually wasn't a universalist when I began studying, but in fact my study in theology led me down the universalist path.

My degree in theology has not been an obstacle to being a universalist, instead it has been the cause.

Cool, very interesting.

ROTFLOL!!!!! (Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud!)

My efforts in the hell unit have just about convinced the lecturer!

Wow, I would have thought it was a pre-req.! Hope you haven't broken the curriculum!

Interestingly, I have never met a Christian who has not been a universalist.

Pardon me, you say? Every Christian is a universalist? Ridiculous!

Ahh, but it is true, I say.

Every Christian believes with all of their heart in the universal action of Adam in the fall.

Good point.

I am one of the Christians that not only believes in the universal act of Adam but also in the universal act of Jesus as well.

1 Cor 15:22 - Gar hosper en Adam pas apotheneako, kai houto en Christos pas zoopoieo.

Literally translated: In exactly the same way that everybody died in Adam, everybody will be given life in Christ.

Blessings to all, Pete

Very nice...

 

[john14_20]

Thanks G4

Blessings in Christ to you

Pete

 

[G4m]

To be honest I've never really looked at these words.

However, it's interesting that aion is translated in a temporal sense and also as ever, indicating an everlasting state.

However, is everlasting eternal? To me everlasting still implies a start and being confined to some form of infinite time. Whereas, eternal would be something completely separate from time.

But aionios, is always translated to give a perpetual state, except for three times I think.

How would you indicate eternal in Greek? With aidios? Or is the concept not recognised by the language?

Also if eternal life is granted in the next age, why are there more ages to follow? I mean if the next age is the only time to become eternal, then why the need of anymore ages? Why would something that is eternal still need to operate in ages, in time?

 

[G4m]

Here's a comical look at how we read the Bible, despite what it says!


Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save the Christians

1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Saviour of the believers

Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all who believe unto Himself

Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all are condemned, in Christ some shall live

1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ some live

Eph 1:10-The believers come into Him at the fullness of times

Col 1:20-Christians reconciled unto God

1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Saviour of the Christians



1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be victorious

La 3:31,32-God will cast off forever. Yea He brings grief, and His compassion falters, such is His failing love.



Jn 1:29-The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of those who ask for forgiveness


Blessings to all, Pete

Pete,

you may like this:

S is for SATAN



SATAN is also known as the Devil. He is an evil-looking fellow with horns, forked tail, and bad breath.

Satan has been playing against God (See GOD) for a long time now, trying to take over control of the Universe. Of course God made up the game in the first place, so he's not too concerned about the outcome.

The pieces God and Satan play with are called People. Many of these pieces enjoy telling each other that as soon as Satan loses, the New Age will begin.

Oh yeah. Who are they trying to kid? As soon as anybody loses, the game is over. Then all the pieces go back in the box.

from:

http://www.well.com/~mick/na.s-t.html#satan

 

[Abiel]

Hey there Abiel.

Where ever you cut and pasted that post from, I must say it does not seem to make much sense.

Please explain to me why we must conclude that God is not immortal?

Why is His Kingdom temporary?

Why is His Glory temporary?

(I won't write them all!)

If you give me the actual verses that are problematic I will try and answer your questions.

Further, Hewey writes "If this is true, several problems are introduced and are contradictory to the attributes of the most High God."

But tell me how torturing folks alive in a furnace is not contradictory to the attributes of the most High God?


His position is just as problematic.

Blessings to you, Pete

I haven't got a clue!!! It was just that I set off on a hunt for the NT that star suggested...and this is what I had chucked at mw by google!

The point seems to be that universalists translate that particular word to mean something other than eternal(I know no greek, so cant tell you which!). The consequence of this translation has an effect on every other occasion the word is used, and that effect seems to be to adversly affect the nature of the Kingdom etc.

That greek word either means eternal, or age-long, or both. If it's both we are back to opinion.

I think the believer in hell doesnt see God as 'torturing folks alive in a furnace'- but I agree it doesnt sound very loving. However the universalist position seems to say 'God tortures folks in a furnace for a while' - long while or short while? who knows?

I think it is vital that we do justly, and walk humbly before our Lord (Micah something) in this and many more matters.

 

[john14_20]

The point seems to be that universalists translate that particular word to mean something other than eternal(I know no greek, so cant tell you which!). The consequence of this translation has an effect on every other occasion the word is used, and that effect seems to be to adversly affect the nature of the Kingdom etc.

That greek word either means eternal, or age-long, or both. If it's both we are back to opinion.

I think the believer in hell doesnt see God as 'torturing folks alive in a furnace'- but I agree it doesnt sound very loving. However the universalist position seems to say 'God tortures folks in a furnace for a while' - long while or short while? who knows?

I think it is vital that we do justly, and walk humbly before our Lord (Micah something) in this and many more matters.

Hi Abiel

The English translators of the Greek NT seem to do as they wish. It is awfully frustrating. As another interesting example, this word aion which is at the centre of our discussion is NOT always translated as 'eternal'!

It also translated as 'world' when it suits the translators. This is despite the fact that the Greek has a word that actually means world - kosmos!

So when the fundamental Christian demands we translate aion consistently, I simply demand the same of them. The results are quite funny.

I will post some examples in my next post.

Luke 18:30 is a great and quick example.

"And in the future world, they will have eternal life"

'world' is translated from 'aion' and 'eternal' is translated from the same root word 'aionios'.

Both these words the fundamentalsit insists we translate as 'eternal', yet here in the same verse the two wordsa are translated completely differently!


By the way, what does the believer in hell think God is doing with the people in there?

If it is not burning them alive in the flames, what is it?

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[john14_20]

Words in red are aion or aionios and as such I have rendered them all as eternal to meet the requirements of those folks who demand we do so.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity, nor in that which is to come.




Mat 13:22 And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the eternity, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.





Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the eternity.



Mar 10:30 will be rewarded. In this eternity they will be given a hundred times as many houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and pieces of land, though they will also be mistreated. And in the eternity to come, they will have eternal life.



Luk 18:30 will be given much more in this life. And in the future eternity they will have eternal life."



Luk 20:34 Jesus answered: The people in this eternity get married.



Joh 6:51 I am that bread from heaven! Everyone who eats it will live forevr. My flesh is the life-giving bread that I give to the people of this world. (world here is translated from the Greek kosmos and not aion!)



Joh 9:32 Since the eternity began it was never heard that any one opened the eyes of a man born blind.



This is a very short list. I find that people very often don't read the large posts so I used only a few examples.


The New American Standard Bible contains translation from aion 95 times.

It is translated as a[font=Arial, Helvetica]ge 20 times , ages 6 times, ancient time 1 time, beginning of time 1 time, course 1 time, eternal 2 times, eternity 1 time, ever* 2 times, forever 27 times, forever and ever 20 times, forevermore 2 times, long ago 1 time, never* 1 time, old 1 time, time 1 time, world 7 times, worlds 1 time[/font]

Interesting, isn't it?



Blessings to all, Pete

 

[Starstreak M86]

John14_20,

I think we got 'em! I don't see any possible way to ignore this or rationalize it without admitting that our translators must have mucked up (I tend to think that they messed up on purpose to support doctrine, rather than not add to or take away from the word [Christ warned us about adding to or taking away from the word]).

Amazing how we can throw away God's word, just to hold onto human tradition (like Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing).

 

[Abiel]

Hi Abiel


By the way, what does the believer in hell think God is doing with the people in there?

If it is not burning them alive in the flames, what is it?

Blessings to all, Pete

Frankly . I dunno!

I suppose once cast into pit, God does nothing with them! I find it all very worrying. My worries used to extend all over the place. There's that bit where Paul says 'if we are wrong about Jesus' (my paraphrase!) 'then we are the most to be pitied' That opened a can of worms I can tell you!

'I dont know' is my answer to nearly every question! Psalm 131:1 applies!

That's why I find myself in the liberal camp, where it is okay to ask questions, to differ, to vacilate and to doubt! Sometimes I envy people who are 100% convinced of their positions, but time and again I see convinced people becoming unloving in their posts. That saddens me more than anything. I do believe I've just been consigned to hell on a baptism thread, yet i am convinced by Matthew 25. The shepherd will know his sheep, because he will find them going about his business.

 

[G4m]

This doesn't make sense to me that you would have eternal life within a world that starts and ends:

KJV:
Mark 10
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
But it would make sense to have life that endures the age it belongs to:

YLT:
Mark 10
30 who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, life age-during;

I mean why bother having another world (which starts and ends) if you're in eternity?

Another peculiar instance:

KJV:
Ephesians 3
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

YLT:
Ephesians 3
21 to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

But the following seems quite reasonable as being rendered eternal:

KJV:
2 Corinthians 4
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

YLT:
2 Corinthians 4
18 we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during.


The main problem I see is that the same word 'aion' is rendered to show eternal things, but also durational things that start and end. So how do you decide which is eternal and which is not?

Further 'aionios' is the adjective and is almost always rendered as eternal or everlasting. Why is the rendering between aion and aionios so disproportional? But again what is the determining factor in it being rendered eternal or durational?

 

[john14_20]

Sometimes I envy people who are 100% convinced of their positions, but time and again I see convinced people becoming unloving in their posts. That saddens me more than anything. I do believe I've just been consigned to hell on a baptism thread

Hello again Abiel

Since studying theology full time, I have found answers for all of the questions I had. But, every answer brings with it a new question! So there are always unanswered question to deal with. We never get it all sorted out.

I agree with you that with an increase in dogmatism there appears to be a decrease in acceptance and love.

I always try to be firm in my beliefs but understanding and loving of people. I don't always get it right, and I welcome being reminded when I do stuff it up.

As for that baptism thread, don't worry about it. They sent me to hell too. Do not let anyone tell you that God demands something of you in order to be acceptable. This is turning God's covenant of grace into a legal transaction - a contract.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[Azaka]

Hi Everyone,

I'm still kinda new to the doctrine of Universal Reconciliationism (was introduced to it just this summer), but I'm very much intrigued by the whole idea of it and have been seriously pondering it for a couple of weeks. I can certainly see how quite a few passages in scripture would seem to strongly suggest it. However, I'm still not sure how I feel about it (not that that matters, of course - it's what scripture says that's important and how God has revealed himself to us, not how we feel about it). One concern of mine is that it seems to conflict with what I believe to be the Biblical motif of free will: the freedom of choice given to men and angels because of God's desire for his creatures to love and serve him freely (not in a forced or compatabalistic sense). It has always been my opinion that love cannot be forced; inherent in the ability to love is the ability to not love. Yet, universalism seems to imply that (in the future, at least) love will not be a "free" choice for most, but something that many people will have no choice but to choose as a result of their being "purged" in the lake of fire.

I just read a short essay by Thomas Talbott entitled "The Essential Role of Free Will in Universal Reconciliation," which has proven helpful in answering some of my questions regarding universalism and free will. In the article he suggests that men have freedom of choice during this life (our use of which determines how we will encounter God's love in the future and whether we will be perfected as God's children now or in the future). He goes on to say, "What our free choices determine, then, is not our eternal destiny, which is secure from the beginning, but the means required to achieve it. For the more tenaciously we cling to our illusions and selfish desires--to the flesh, as Paul calls it--the more severe will be the means and the more painful the process whereby God shatters our illusions, destroys the flesh, and finally separates us from our sin."

Talbott seems to imply that during this age we are free in the libertarian sense (we determine whether or not we will choose to see God as he really is, and ourselves as God really sees us), but in the age to come, those who've rejected God will be free only in a compatabalistic sense: resistance to God's love and the self-chosen delusians they lived in will no longer be tolerated - those who rejected God's love in the past and suppressed the truth will be irresistibly purged of their sins in the future and "forced" to see the light, and to love Christ as their Savior. Does this understanding of free will and grace reflect the majority opinion within the Universalist camp ("resistible grace" during this age, but "irresistible grace" in the future), or is Talbott's view unique? Thanks, and God bless.

In Christ,
Azaka

 

[john14_20]

Hi Azaka.

Here is my view.

The Father created the human race for inclusion in His life - to be adopted (Eph 1)

With the entrance of sin, humanity began walking down the road of alienation, blindness, lostness and even perhaps into non-being. (Athanasius)

The Father would not tolerate our existence like this, and He sent the Son to rescue us - the whole darn lot.

He sent the Son to search us out, hoist us up on His shoulders and carry us home. This was what was accomplished in the life, death, resurrection and ascension.

Everybody, and I mean everybody, will be locked in the embrace of the Father upon thier death. There is no question of Heaven Vs hell. All people are in the Father's arms. The love of God is inescapable.

This does not imply in any way that love can be forced. It cannot. It must be freely chosen. But who say our free choice to love God (or not love God) determines whether we go to Heaven or hell?

Ephesians 1 says we are adopted. Think of an adopted child. We have friends who just adopted an Indian girl about 3 years old. This girl had no knowledge of the process that was going on to secure her adoption. She had no choice in the matter. The people that wanted her home with them just set about and made it so. She has no free will on this matter - she is now a sharer in thier life, and living in thier embrace.

Now here's the 'free will' part.

She had no choice in getting this new existence. If she wants her new existence, then she will enjoy it. It will be the best thing ever. HEAVEN

If she does not want it and yet cannot escape it, then it is the worst thing ever. HELL

In either example her situation is no different, but her experience of it is opposite.

Heaven and hell are not geographical categories, but relational ones.

Heaven is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and loving it.

Hell is the state of being locked in the embrace of the Father's arms and hating it - and being unable to escape.

Blessings to all Pete