Any WOFER here who believes in Once Saved, Always saved

[Pong]

If you are one, why did you belive in OSAS?

 

[Pong]

not necessarily in predestination. One may be arminian but belives in eternal security.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I believe the regenerate is more secure in his salvation than the unregenerate is secure in his lostness.

How secure is the unregenerate in his lostness?
Absolutely lost.

We are more secure than that.

 

[Pong]

Hi didaskalos!

Can you answer this question:

TRUE OR FALSE: A person once he accepts Christ as Lord and Savior, He/She is saved forever regardless of what he/she will do in the future.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hi didaskalos!

Can you answer this question:

TRUE OR FALSE: A person once he accepts Christ as Lord and Savior, He/She is saved forever regardless of what he/she will do in the future.

Based on the exact wording of your question... True.

 

[riverpastor]

I believe OSAS, Pong.

I was raised in the Baptist church which believes OSAS.

When I became Spirit-Filled, I turned from this belief and believed that a believer was secure in his salvation as long as he met certain conditions of obedience.

After I encountered Christ in the Spirit, I turned to OSAS again as I understood the Covenant of the Lord and the fact that , though I may not meet certain conditions or requirements, that God Himself made the Everlasting Covenant with Himself and that though man may fail any requirements of the Covenant (actualy, the Law) that God would not do so.

God will not break His own Covenant, despite what the believer does or doesn't DO.

The fact is, the Son, Jesus Christ, fulfilled all of the requirements that was placed on man through the Law. In fulfilling these, Christ fulfilled the Covenant as well.

In Him, the believer is complete. In Him, the believer enters into God's own Covenant with Himself. And therefore, once in the Everlasting Covenant, the believer is bound to God's unending mercy and also, God's unending power.

For God calls us to live righteously, but does not leave us without the ability to do so. IOW, He did not call us to frustration, but to live in the Holiness that He supplies as we live our lives according to His Power within us.

He tells us to do the impossible, then He Himself supplies the Grace, His power and ability within us, to perform that impossibility.

 

[Asaph]

*

 

[Pong]

Hi Riverpastor!

That was enlighthening!

Do you think majority of WOFers belive in OSAS? Thanks a lot!

 

[riverpastor]

I am not sure.

I live in the southern US. A majority of charismatic/full-gospel type churches do not believe in OSAS.

Some believe it within certain limitations.

I believe it without reservations or within any hindrance.

If salvation is revealed in a man or woman, then I do not believe that they cannot lose their salvation.

A question that arises in this discussion, for me, is by what process the Father uncreates the new creation he created in you when you were born again. We are New Creatures in Christ. If we were able to lose our salvation, God must have a process by which he creates us into an evil creature.

It's not that our New Creature simply dies off. God has made us to bear the Righteousness of Christ in the Spirit. He actually has to CREATE us into a new creature that exists in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and has absolute fellowship with satan. IOW, He has to make us into evil creature in order to replace the New Life which we receive when Christ is revealed in us and we are born again.

 

[godson777]

I am not sure.

I live in the southern US. A majority of charismatic/full-gospel type churches do not believe in OSAS.

Some believe it within certain limitations.

I believe it without reservations or within any hindrance.

If salvation is revealed in a man or woman, then I do not believe that they cannot lose their salvation.

A question that arises in this discussion, for me, is by what process the Father uncreates the new creation he created in you when you were born again. We are New Creatures in Christ. If we were able to lose our salvation, God must have a process by which he creates us into an evil creature.

It's not that our New Creature simply dies off. God has made us to bear the Righteousness of Christ in the Spirit. He actually has to CREATE us into a new creature that exists in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and has absolute fellowship with satan. IOW, He has to make us into evil creature in order to replace the New Life which we receive when Christ is revealed in us and we are born again.

So are you suggesting that if a Christian was to renounce God, renounce Christianity, renounce Jesus and say that they no longer believed He is the son of God and that God raised him from the dead and that they no longer believe that He even exists and that they have now turned to Islam and have decided to worship Allah, they would still be saved?

I havn't done any extensive study on this topic so I can't speak to authoratively but it seems to me that in the same way we have the option to choose Jesus we also have the option to renounce Him.

Hebrews 6:4-6 says: 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This passage clearly states that Christians (people who have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the spirit and tatsed the goodness of the word of God etc etc) CAN "fall away". And if they do so, they cannot be brought back to repentance. BTW this verse is not talking about a Christian who sins, it is talking about a Christian who commits apostacy by renouncing Jesus Christ as they saviour.

Matthew 10:22 says: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 says: but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13 says: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 says: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Notice that we need to stand firm until the END if we are going to enter heaven. We can't become a christian and then when stuff gets hard we fall away and still expect to enter heaven without re-comitting. People who stand firm for a couple of years are not saved. But people who stand firm in Christ until the end are saved.

My point is that Christians can fall away, and if one was to commit apostacy the bible says that they can never be saved again.

 

[riverpastor]

The END as you have put it here, is somewhere in the "Tribulation" period is it not.

My next question to you is do you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture???
________________________________________________________

Do you know why it is impossible to "renew" them again?

Because it is impossible for Jesus to be crucified twice.

And once you have been brought to repentance, you will never pass that way again.

What you are saying is that Christ only saved us up to a point. But after that, we must continue to "work" in order to save ourselves.

If we have anything to add to His work in order to keep us saved or maintain our salvation, then we are calling His work inadequate.

Allow me a moment for exegesis...

 

[riverpastor]

[bible]Hebrews 6:4-8[/bible]


The book of Hebrews (as its name implies) was written to Jewish believers and non-believers, not so much to the Gentile church, although Gentile Christians can benefit greatly by reading the book. Contrast this book to Paul's epistles to the churches and the difference is quite clear.

The Jews were deeply entrenched in the laws, customs and sacrifices of Judaism. That is why Hebrews focuses on the fact that Jesus is the final sacrifice and the High Priest of high priests, and that He supersedes Moses, Abraham and all the other heroes of faith mentioned in the Old Testament (Hebrews 12:2).

Due to spiritual blindness, the Jews had failed to recognise Jesus as the Messiah. They rejected His message of salvation by grace and crucified Him.

Now, after knowing better -- having "been enlightened", having had the gospel explained to them via the Apostles, having seen miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit in Acts -- if they continue to reject Christ, they are in a sense putting Jesus back on the cross -- "crucifying the Son of God all over again".

In fact, in chapter 2, the author already gives them this warning:

[bible]Hebrews 2:3[/bible]

Is it possible that persons "who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" can be non-believers?

Yes. Judas Iscariot was one such person. He had been with Jesus for about three years, sat under His teaching and even seen the power Jesus demonstrated through the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas was not a believer. He never addressed Jesus as "Lord". You cannot find this in the Bible. Judas had only addressed Jesus as "Master" (Matthew 26:25).

Similarly, today, there are many people who have "tasted" Jesus and the gospel, seen miracles performed right in front of them or even on them, and yet turn away from God. They are the "land" that has been rained on, yet does not produce any crop but thorns and thistles only (verse 8).

Note also that the verse only says "enlightened", "tasted" and "shared". These are not words the Bible associates with being saved. We know that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We don't get saved by being "enlightened", by "tasting" or by "sharing". All that is good but we must still believe in our hearts and confess Jesus as our Lord and righteousness (Romans 10:9).

Finally, let's not forget to read verses 9 and 10 as well.

[bible]Hebrews 6:9-10[/bible]

Here, the writer suddenly shifts his focus to the "beloved", as opposed to those who have tasted and rejected Christ. He tells them that although he has said those negative things (verses 4 to 6, 8), he is confident of better things in their case, "things that accompany salvation", not condemnation. He goes on to assure them that God is not unrighteous to forget their works of love done in the name of Jesus.

Again, these two verses show that there are two groups being addressed in the entire passage: those who reject Christ after hearing the gospel (Hebrews 2:3) and those who are already saved. So, any Christian who feels afraid after reading verses 4 to 6 and 8 because he thinks that they address believers, should read verses 9 and 10 as well to know that the latter verses are not referring to Christians.

 

[riverpastor]

[bible]Matthew 7:22-23[/bible]

"On that day" refers to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He returns to earth in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30) to reign as King for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4,6).

At that time, many non-believers will call Him "Lord" out of fear or because it will be apparent to them that He is the Christ. But it will be too late then. The time is up. They should have believed earlier. They can't be saved now by calling Him "Lord" since faith is no longer required -- they can see with their own eyes that Jesus is Lord.

Therefore, Jesus will tell these people that He never knew them and to depart from Him. After all, they never had a personal relationship with Him, and calling Him "Lord" then will just be a vain attempt to start one.

But how can we be sure that these people are not Christians who had, at some point in their lives, lost their salvation (assuming that it is possible for a Christian to lose his salvation)?

The clue lies in the word "never" when Jesus says, "I never knew you". If Jesus is addressing Christians who had "lost their salvation", he would be lying if He said "never" because He would have known them at least once -- perhaps the first 10 years of their Christian life before they "lost their salvation".

 

[riverpastor]

Renouncing Christ

Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to a Christian wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

This being the case, let's suppose that a Christian does renounce Christ and "lose his salvation". This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him into rejecting Christ have succeeded in separating him from the love of God. This scenario, however, contradicts Romans 8:38,39.

[bible]Romans 8:38-39[/bible]

Some might still argue that being in hell does not separate us from the love of God. That is simply ridiculous! How can anyone, who is suffering terribly and endlessly in the eternal lake of fire, be experiencing and enjoying the love of God?

He is faithful, not us

Many Christians think that after they are saved, they have to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

If we have to do certain things to keep our salvation, then salvation is simply not free. This contradicts Romans 5:15-18 and Romans 6:23, which say that salvation is God's free gift to us. It is free for us but it cost God His darling Son.

Think of it this way: When someone gives you a Christmas gift, do you receive it and then tell him, "Okay, how much do I owe you?" The person will be hurt, if not, offended.

Now, suppose you open up the gift only to find half of it. The giver then tells you, "You'll have to work for the other half." And we think our heavenly Father is like that!

We began in grace, and it is grace that will lead us home, not our performance.

[bible]Galatians 3:3[/bible]

Christians are also foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). It is God who keeps them saved. It is God who is always faithful, not them.

[bible]Philippians 1:6[/bible]

 

[riverpastor]

The Truth hinges on the act of the Covenant of God.

The Everlasting Covenant...

When you are truly "born-again", then you are placed in that Covenant that He made with and by Himself.

Let's break that down for just a moment...
GOD and GOD alone:

• Created man knowing full well that man would sin,
• Made a promise by an oath to redeem man,
• Made the Law as a requirement for rightesousness, knowing also that no man could attain righteousness through it,
• Became a man in order to fulfill and surpass the Law that He made by Himself,
• Sacrificed Himself on the Cross in order to become our sin,
• Shed His own Blood as an atonement for our sin,
• Offered His Own Blood to Himself for our sin,
• Accepted His Own Blood as payment for our sin.

Now, where in here do we have a part to add to what He has already done BY HIMSELF?

A work provided by us cannot save us; how can a work therefore make us "unsaved"?

God did all the work BY HIMSELF.

So, when we enter into that Covenant, He makes us into New Creatures.

Paul states that we are no longer our "own" but that we have been bought with a price.

THERE ARE TWO CONDITIONS THAT NEED TO BE LOOKED AT:
1) the condition of being a sinner (which is a nature issue),
2) the condition of sinning (which is a character issue).

Now, God takes care of both issues on the Cross.

The Old Man is crucified with Christ. The old sinful nature has died in Christ. IN ORDER THAT THE NEW NATURE IN CHRIST NOW HAS PLACE TO LIVE.

At any rate, the old nature is done away, and we become new creatures in Christ.

So, to say that I am a "sinner, saved by grace" is actually a misnomer. It is a mistatement. We are no longer sinners, because the "sinner" was crucified on the Cross with Christ. However, yes, we are saved by Grace.

So the condition of our inner man is now one of "Righteousness" and not "sinfulness" or "unrighteousness".

HOWEVER, there is still the ability to perform an act of sin. The fact that we are new creatures in Christ does not negate the fact that we may still sin if we choose to.

So here we find that there is a difference between the act of "being" (our existence has changed in the spirit) and an act of "doing" (the act of sin by our flesh).

Doing neither saves us nor does it unsave us.

The question of salvation remains with our spirit being. The condition of our inner man determines whether or not we have salvation.

If it has been recreated as NEW in the Spirit by the Father through the work of the Son, then nothing is able to change the condition of our existence.

We were, by no work or act or performance, able to change our existence in the spirit. How shall we, after we are saved, by any work or act or performance on our part, able to change the existence of our spirit?

The answer is: we simply cannot.

We do not have the ability to change our existence inwardly.

For us to say that God would, is to say that God is a liar.

For in His Covenant with Himself, He sware by an oath.

Hebrews tells us that He could find none greater than Himself to sware an oath by...

So, you know what He did???

He swore an Oath BY HIS OWN NAME.

God made Covenant with Himself.

He came in the form of sinful flesh to take on sin and in the flesh condemn sin. When Jesus shed Blood on the Cross of Calvary, He was cutting Covenant in the human flesh because of the oath that was sworn by God alone in the heavens.

God made Covenant with Himself.

When God met Abram in the desert and told Abram to kill the heifer, the ram, the turtle doves and the pigeons, God was preparing Himself to enter into Covenant.

But what happened to Abram??? He was placed in a deep sleep. And in that sleep, he saw a vision of a burning lamp pass between the pieces of flesh that were cut in the desert.

God made Covenant with Himself.

Will God break His own Promise to Himself?

In order for God to make any one of us into an unrighteous creature, He has to break His Own Covenant to do so.

 

[riverpastor]

We are God's DNA.

We contain the DNA of God in our spirit being.

We were once, spiritually, dead. But when we were "born-again", then we became alive unto God through His doing.

That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit.

That which is born of God's Essence, will live by God's Essence.

Our spiritual DNA has changed. We have God-Life on the inside of us. We have ZOE-Life in the inside of us. We have the Eternal Essence of Life on the inside of us.

That DNA can not change.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My children carry traits of my DNA.

As they grow older, they will always carry those traits. Their DNA will never change.

If they run off, they will still be my children.

If they disown me, they will still be my children.

If they say they have new parents, they will still be my children.

WHY?

Because nothing will ever change the fact that they carry my DNA traits.

They are marked with those traits.

If, God forbid, one of my children passes on before I do, they will still be my child.

The DNA traits will be entombed or buried with them.

________________________________________________

We are of God's spiritual DNA. Nothing will ever change that.

 

[Andrew]

If you are one, why did you belive in OSAS?

Yes I'm OSAS.

Why? Well firstly, there are too many clear-cut scriptures for OSAS.

Secondly, it passes the "wisdom from above" test. ie it doesnt bring fear but peace.

anyway, i had always believed in OSAS since i was a young kid/Christian.

 

[godson777]

Thankyou riverpastor SO much for your explanations. Thankyou so much for your explanation of Hebrews 6. I was misunderstanding those verses. Thankyou for clearing that up.

I have one more query...

Renouncing Christ

Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to a Christian wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely, it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

This being the case, let's suppose that a Christian does renounce Christ and "lose his salvation". This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him into rejecting Christ have succeeded in separating him from the love of God. This scenario, however, contradicts Romans 8:38,39.

Romans 8:38-3938 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Some might still argue that being in hell does not separate us from the love of God. That is simply ridiculous! How can anyone, who is suffering terribly and endlessly in the eternal lake of fire, be experiencing and enjoying the love of God?

I definitely agree with you that we don't in any way earn our salvation or maintain our salvation by works or anything like that. However (and I stand to be corrected) in the same way that we make a conscious decision to accept God, we always have the ability to make a conscious decision to reject God. In a sense the only thing that "maintains your salvation" is the fact that you still "agree with" your confession that Jesus is Lord.

I definitely agree with you that one is not experiencing the love of God in hell. However, Isn't it true that God loves even the sinners and loved us while we were still sinners?

ROMANS 5:6-8 NKJ
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 JOHN 3:16a NKJ
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.

My point is, even if a Christian who was tempted by the devil, committed apostacy and renounced God, (even though they may be separated from the prescence of God - although this is the topic of discussion), they wouldn't be separated from the love of God, because God loves even the sinners.

Generally speaking, I know that no true Christian in his right mind would ever renounce God, but if the circumstance did arise, in the same way that we chose to accept Jesus and everything He did for us with our free will, we have the ability to reject Jesus and everything He did for us with our free will - even after we have chosen Him.

I also understand what you're saying about the DNA etc. However in the same way that by the grace of God we chose to become children of God, we also have the ability to renounce him as our father and chose to return to the world and the dominion of Satan.

That is why the bible stresses so much the importance of remaining firm until the end - which is the end of our life, or the 'end' as in the rapture if the rapture takes place before we die, or the end as in the 'second coming' if one was to be saved during the tribulation. (BTW - I havn't done much study on this but as far as i can tell I'm pretty sure that the rapture happens before the seven years of tribulation).

I don't see how a true Christian, can turn from Christianity, renounce God and Jesus, and turn to Hinduism or Buddism or Islam or Atheism or anything at all and still remain saved even though they have totally renounced God and have no relationship with Him.

(BTW I am always open minded and I thankyou for your previous posts. I stand corrected on my interpretation of Hebrews 6 and I will remain open minded with anything you say with regards to this post.)

 

[Andrew]

However (and I stand to be corrected) in the same way that we make a conscious decision to accept God, we always have the ability to make a conscious decision to reject God.

That's true only if you believe that when you were a sinner, you had to power or ability to come to God and renounce your sins, without any help or grace from God.

By grace are you saved through faith, and even that -- faith -- it is a gift of God.

IOW God gave you the faith to believe. God chose you before you even existed. Then God led you to Christ. Then God by His power made you His son. So its not really an independent decision.

As for Christians who have become Muslims or Buddhists, I wld ask 2 questions:

1. Have they really converted or are they just in rebellion becos they are deeply hurt and disappointed/disillusioned with God by some event? God sees the heart. God knows the hurt they are going through and hence He understnds why they 'converted'. Are they still saved? I believe so.

2. Were they saved in the first place? When people come up for the altar call, no one really knows who is truly saved and who is not. We just assume they are sincere and proceed from there. Only God knows becos He sees the heart. We dont see everything. I know a friend who went up becos he thot it was for something else. He said the sinners prayer and all that but it was a mistake he made as far as he is concerned. Is he saved? Only God knows.

Usu, when you do a background check, you'll find that 'Christians' who became Muslims or Buddists weren't really born-again in the first place. That has been my experience. Just ask them: "How did you become a Christian?" And I've heard, "I used to attend a convent school." Or "I used to attend church when I was young..." To them, that means they "were" Christians.

 

[Andrew]

My point is, even if a Christian who was tempted by the devil, committed apostacy and renounced God, (even though they may be separated from the prescence of God - although this is the topic of discussion), they wouldn't be separated from the love of God, because God loves even the sinners.

Yes that is true. God loves sinners. But I think the point being made was that how can a Christian still be experiencing the love of God (no separation) if he is burning in hell for all eternity? ie we are talking about the next life.