Any Western Rite Orthodox here?

[Monica child of God 1]

If I remember correctly, we don't have any Western Rite-ers at the moment but I wasn't sure. I went to a Western Rite mass last Sunday and I have some questions.

Monica

 

[ProScribe]

I've attended a Western Rite liturgy more than several times.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I have visited one on occasion also. Out of curiosity, what is your question(s), Monica? Many of us are at least familiar with the services. After all, inquiring minds need to know!

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Thanks for responding Proscribe. Maybe you or others familiar with Western Liturgical practices can help with these questions:

~There seemed to be a second Gospel reading at the end of the service after communion. Which Western tradition does this come from? I have only been to a handful of Catholic and Episcopal masses, but I don't remember a second Gospel reading after communion.

~Is there a special signifigance to the hand rung bells and the times at which they are rung?

~The Angelus was prayed at the end of the service. Was that a separate service or is it a part of the Mass?

~I am not asking this as a veiled criticism at all. I noticed that dairy was served during the coffee hour though this parish is new calendar and it is the Virgin's Fast. Is that because only meat is excluded during this fast or because the pre-Dormition Fast is not a part of the Western Rite?

All for now

M.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Hmm well unfortunately I'm of no help to you at all here...lol I'm sure there are some knowledgable folk around here who will be, though. Good questions, i'm interested to find out as well

edit: Well, as for the handbells, I believe they are rung during during certain points of consecration...perhaps to draw the parishoners attention to the particular event.

 

[Anhelyna]

Last Gospel comes from the Tridentine Mass . It was discontinued in the NO Mass

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Thanks Ortho Cat

Also, during the consecration (IIRC), one of the deacons was wrapped in a gold cloth that had IHS embroidered on it. I know that IHS stands for Jesus Christ but what was the signifigance of wrapping the cloth?

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Last Gospel comes from the Tridentine Mass . It was discontinued in the NO Mass

Ah, okay. Interesting. Thanks!

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

One thing I sort of missed was the rhythm of the litanies I am used to in the Eastern liturgies.

M.

 

[MKJ]

Yes, the bells are rung at specific points during the consecration - a think it may be during the elevations. In a church with a big bell, often that will be rung at the same time, so that people outside working can pray.

I'm not sure, but my guess would be that the Angelus is a separate service.

And AFAIK, the Dormition has not had a fast in the West, so I think your guess is correct.

I have no idea about the deacon being wrapped in a cloth and I couldn't find anything about it online.

 

[nutroll]

Thanks Ortho Cat

Also, during the consecration (IIRC), one of the deacons was wrapped in a gold cloth that had IHS embroidered on it. I know that IHS stands for Jesus Christ but what was the signifigance of wrapping the cloth?

M.

possibly a humeral veil?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Humeral Veil

I had never heard of this before, but came across it when researching vestments.

 

[Kristos]

Thanks for responding Proscribe. Maybe you or others familiar with Western Liturgical practices can help with these questions:

~There seemed to be a second Gospel reading at the end of the service after communion. Which Western tradition does this come from? I have only been to a handful of Catholic and Episcopal masses, but I don't remember a second Gospel reading after communion.

~Is there a special signifigance to the hand rung bells and the times at which they are rung?

~The Angelus was prayed at the end of the service. Was that a separate service or is it a part of the Mass?

~I am not asking this as a veiled criticism at all. I noticed that dairy was served during the coffee hour though this parish is new calendar and it is the Virgin's Fast. Is that because only meat is excluded during this fast or because the pre-Dormition Fast is not a part of the Western Rite?

All for now

M.

Hmmm - I don't know. Incidentally, I attended a WR liturgy recently too. It was a ROCOR WR parish, very small. They used the Liturgy of St Tikhon. I didn't notice any of the practices that you mention, but maybe because it was so small - I don't know... The epiclesis and anaphora were clearly "Orthodox" - the rest was little foreign to me, not bad just different.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Regarding the fasting - when we had Pan-Orthodox Vespers at a WR parish in Fort Worth, they didn't keep to the same fast. They fasted from meat, but not from dairy. So they probably are observing the Dormition Fast, but differently. Actually, since it was Sunday (when we visited), I don't think they even fasted from meat. They provided some meat-free dishes for those of us who were.

Mary

 

[Monica child of God 1]

possibly a humeral veil?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Humeral Veil

I had never heard of this before, but came across it when researching vestments.

Yes that seems right.

From Wikipedia-- In the High Mass form of Tridentine Mass, the subdeacon uses a humeral veil when carrying the chalice, paten, or other sacred vessels, which should be touched only by the deacon or another person in major orders.

Maybe he was holding a paten or other altar item and covering his hands with the humeral veil. I couldn't tell because he was facing the altar. And maybe he was a sub-deacon, not a deacon. There wasn't much difference that I could tell in the vestments that he and the deacon who read the gospel wore.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Hmmm - I don't know. Incidentally, I attended a WR liturgy recently too. It was a ROCOR WR parish, very small. They used the Liturgy of St Tikhon. I didn't notice any of the practices that you mention, but maybe because it was so small - I don't know... The epiclesis and anaphora were clearly "Orthodox" - the rest was little foreign to me, not bad just different.

This parish uses the Liturgy of St. Gregory, which I think what the Tridentine mass was based on.

I liked it, but it was very different from what I have become used to in the Eastern Tradition. Also, it didn't remind me much of the Novus Ordo or the Episcopal Eucharistic service, except for the most basic elements ("Let us lift up our hearts," "And with your spirit," etc.").

M.

 

[The Virginian]

Yes that seems right.

From Wikipedia-- In the High Mass form of Tridentine Mass, the subdeacon uses a humeral veil when carrying the chalice, paten, or other sacred vessels, which should be touched only by the deacon or another person in major orders.

Maybe he was holding a paten or other altar item and covering his hands with the humeral veil. I couldn't tell because he was facing the altar. And maybe he was a sub-deacon, not a deacon. There wasn't much difference that I could tell in the vestments that he and the deacon who read the gospel wore.

M.

The vestments of the bishop and priest are a modification of the dress of the Emperor when he came to Church. In the Western Rite the distinction of the vestments of the priest, deacon, and sub-deacon are subtle. There is an embroidered stripe which goes down each side of the deacon and sub-deacons chasuble. On the deacon there is a stripe that joins the two just below the shoulder blades, on the sub-deacon however the stripes go to the hem of his garment.
According to the 'rubrics' only the priest or deacon are allowed to touch the Holy Vessels. Therefore; once the anaphora has been blessed, and the wine has been poured in the cup, the acolyte drapes the sub-deacon in the humeral viel, which has pockets inside (for the right and left handed) since according to 'rubrics' he isn't allowed to touch sacred objects, not being of clerical orders.
The 'paten' the dish upon which Christ is served up to the world is the Cross. The 'humeral veil' which is draped over the sub-deacon's shoulders is but the shroud of death which covers all of us. In the service the sbdn kneels at the edge of the altar until the priest begins the Model Prayer. Then at the words "...forgive...." he goes to the right side of the altar, gives the paten back to the deacon, the acolyte removes the veil. This symbolizes the fact that the death of our sins is not remove until we are forgiven.
I hope these words clarify things for you. As a sub-deacon in a Western Rite parish I had to get familiar with the flow of the services (having come over from an Eastern Rite parish), and am still doing so.


the sinful and unworthy servanat

 

[Dorothea]

Yes that seems right.

From Wikipedia-- In the High Mass form of Tridentine Mass, the subdeacon uses a humeral veil when carrying the chalice, paten, or other sacred vessels, which should be touched only by the deacon or another person in major orders.

Maybe he was holding a paten or other altar item and covering his hands with the humeral veil. I couldn't tell because he was facing the altar. And maybe he was a sub-deacon, not a deacon. There wasn't much difference that I could tell in the vestments that he and the deacon who read the gospel wore.

M.

I was going to ask if the deacon was carrying the gifts out at the Great Entrance because my priest wears a gold and dark red embroidered red cloth around his shoulders. During the Pre-sanctified gifts, he actually puts that over his head to signify an old tradition of covering one's face from the Holy Gifts....just going by memory on this...don't have the details, but can get them.

 

[katherine2001]

Regarding the fasting - when we had Pan-Orthodox Vespers at a WR parish in Fort Worth, they didn't keep to the same fast. They fasted from meat, but not from dairy. So they probably are observing the Dormition Fast, but differently. Actually, since it was Sunday (when we visited), I don't think they even fasted from meat. They provided some meat-free dishes for those of us who were.

Mary

This does not strike me as being right. I don't have a problem with a Western-style liturgy (though I have to admit that I'm not at all interested in it--I love the liturgies of Ss John Chrysostom and St. Basil myself and wouldn't trade them for anything), but I don't believe there should be different sets of fasting rules, one for Western Rite and one for Eastern Rite. I can understand relaxation of the fasting rules in certain circumstances, but this does not strike me as being right.

 

[MKJ]

This parish uses the Liturgy of St. Gregory, which I think what the Tridentine mass was based on.

I liked it, but it was very different from what I have become used to in the Eastern Tradition. Also, it didn't remind me much of the Novus Ordo or the Episcopal Eucharistic service, except for the most basic elements ("Let us lift up our hearts," "And with your spirit," etc.").

M.

The modern Episcopal and the NO are from a totally different background than the traditional Western liturgy. They are part of an attempt to renew and reconstruct the liturgy that happened in the 60's and 70's.

What you saw would, as I understand it, be very much like the Traditional Latin Mass, but in the vernacular. It would also be similar to the traditional Anglican liturgy - there would be a real family resemblance between them all.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

This does not strike me as being right. I don't have a problem with a Western-style liturgy (though I have to admit that I'm not at all interested in it--I love the liturgies of Ss John Chrysostom and St. Basil myself and wouldn't trade them for anything), but I don't believe there should be different sets of fasting rules, one for Western Rite and one for Eastern Rite. I can understand relaxation of the fasting rules in certain circumstances, but this does not strike me as being right.

I don't know a lot about Western practices, but I believe that even when the West was Orthodox there were different fasting practices. For example, they have something called Ember days on their calendar which are fasting days that the East never had.

And if the specific fasting foods differed in the ancient Western Orthodox Church, I can see why a restored Western Rite would follow those rules.

M.