Any Western Rite Orthodox here?

[Dorothea]

That is exactly it! Our priest always wears it over his shoulders during Great Entrance, but over his head during the Entrance of Presanctified Gifts!

Yep, same for my priest.

 

[Livindesert]

Is that a good idea though? (and I'm honestly asking for opinions) Look where it got us last time; yes, Rome left Orthodoxy and the Schism occurred for doctrinal reasons but it's a mistake, IMO, to overlook the cultural differences that started much earlier and their contribution to the break.

Different prayers, different liturgies, that seems harmless; even in the East we have different prayers and liturgies. Fasting though? We all fast at the same time, and making that a difference between East and West? That seems a mistake. If WRO grows (and God willing, it will and should) how would that be handled, practically? If you attend a WR parish you fast as they do, if you attend an ER you fast that way? I think it introduces a difference that is unnecessary. I think having local fasts that are completely different (not just little different fasting practices, but completely different fasts) and different calendars (not just on a different schedule, but entirely different calendars) are unnecessary differences within our Church that weakens us, when we could show face to the world that is perfectly and wholly united, a Catholic Faith truly different only in expression.

But, again, this might just be all my own perception and The Church as a whole may be more willing to accept that diversity. I'd be curious though if others see this differently.

The differences started really early with Rome and I think Corinth having different days that easter was celebrated.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

The differences started really early with Rome and I think Corinth having different days that easter was celebrated.

Celebrating Pascha at different times should be forbidden. The Feast of Feasts should be celebrated together.

But I know the differences started early on, I'm not denying that, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a good idea. That's what I'm asking; is it a good idea to have these differences?

 

[Dorothea]

Sounds like a Saint to me, lol. My priest must have been mistaken.

Also my last post should've said "if The Church had declared Augustine a saint." Apparently she has. St. Augustine, pray for us!

Yeah, my priest did say Augustine is a Saint. It's interesting though that he hasn't been looked upon so solidly as other Saints in the Church, as far as what the comments below have to say:

Augustine remains a central figure, both within Christianity and in the history of Western thought. Himself much influenced by Platonism and neo-Platonism, particularly by Plotinus, Augustine was important to the "baptism" of Greek thought and its entrance into the Western Christian (and subsequently the European) intellectual tradition. Also important was his early and influential writing on the human will, a central topic in ethics, and one which became a focus for later philosophers such as Arthur Schopenhauer and Friedrich Nietzsche, but also to the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Augustine's writings developed St Ambrose of Milan's theory of just war. He also advocated the use of force against the Donatists, asking "Why . . . should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost sons compelled others to their destruction?" (The Correction of the Donatists, 22-24). However, he objected to capital punishment and said that it would be preferable to set his opponents free than to execute them.
The addition of Augustine to the Menologion is uncertain. Some regard him as glorified by popular recognition in the distant past, yet he was not added to the Horologion in Greece until 1983 (and then only in the index, but with no mention of his name on the page for June 15). He appears to have been added to the calendar in Russia during the "Western Captivity" when the influence of Latin scholasticism was at a high point. His feast day in the Orthodox Church is June 15. In the West, he is remembered on August 28. which was the day of his death in A.D. 430.

Reception of Augustine in the Orthodox Church

The Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553, listed Augustine among other Fathers of the Church, though there is no unqualified endorsement of his theology mentioned (just as there is none for most saints of the Church):

We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith.[1] (emphasis added)

In the acts of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (not yet translated into English), he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Ό Αγίος Αυγουστίνος - "Saint Augustine."

Despite these acclamations, most of his works were not translated into Greek until circa 1360 by Demetrios Cydones and some Orthodox Christians identify errors in his theology—especially those in his Triadology which gave rise to the Filioque addition to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed—and regard him as being one of the major factors in the Great Schism between the Church in the East and in the West. Thus, there are those among the Orthodox who regard Augustine as a heretic, although there has never been any conciliar condemnation of either him or his writings.

More moderate views regard Augustine as (1) a theological writer who made too many mistakes to be included among the Church Fathers but still a saint, (2) a theological writer among many in the early Church (but not a saint), and (3) a theological writer with, perhaps, the title "Blessed" before his name. It should be noted, however, that the Orthodox Church has not traditionally ranked saints in terms of "blessed" or "saint" (i.e., suggesting that the latter has a greater degree of holiness than the former). Saint "rankings" are usually only differences in kind (e.g., monastics, married, bishops, martyrs, etc.), not in degree.

Augustine of Hippo - OrthodoxWiki

 

[katherine2001]

Is that a good idea though? (and I'm honestly asking for opinions) Look where it got us last time; yes, Rome left Orthodoxy and the Schism occurred for doctrinal reasons but it's a mistake, IMO, to overlook the cultural differences that started much earlier and their contribution to the break.

Different prayers, different liturgies, that seems harmless; even in the East we have different prayers and liturgies. Fasting though? We all fast at the same time, and making that a difference between East and West? That seems a mistake. If WRO grows (and God willing, it will and should) how would that be handled, practically? If you attend a WR parish you fast as they do, if you attend an ER you fast that way? I think it introduces a difference that is unnecessary. I think having local fasts that are completely different (not just little different fasting practices, but completely different fasts) and different calendars (not just on a different schedule, but entirely different calendars) are unnecessary differences within our Church that weakens us, when we could show face to the world that is perfectly and wholly united, a Catholic Faith truly different only in expression.

But, again, this might just be all my own perception and The Church as a whole may be more willing to accept that diversity. I'd be curious though if others see this differently.

Joseph, I agree. The beliefs should be the same in every Orthodox culture. That doesn't mean that there can't be differences in culture and little "t" traditions, but I'm not sure that there aren't some "T" traditions here that aren't different. When I left my Baptist faith, I left it totally (as a Baptist service is nothing like an Orthodox liturgy--they are two totally different types of services". I had to totally adopt the Orthodox faith and its way of doing things. If the WRO service is not that different than an RC or Episcopal mass, might that not make the transition that much harder? Might it not be harder to give up the parts of those faiths that aren't the same as in your former faith if other parts are the same? Personally, I wonder if St. Tikhon meant for the WRO to be a permanent thing or whether he meant it to be a temporary thing, to make the transition between what people were used to and the Eastern Rite. There is only one Orthodoxy, not two. I wonder if the Apostles taught different types of liturgies as they started the different churches, or did they only teach one form of liturgy and one set of traditions?

 

[Livindesert]

Joseph, I agree. The beliefs should be the same in every Orthodox culture. That doesn't mean that there can't be differences in culture and little "t" traditions, but I'm not sure that there aren't some "T" traditions here that aren't different. When I left my Baptist faith, I left it totally (as a Baptist service is nothing like an Orthodox liturgy--they are two totally different types of services". I had to totally adopt the Orthodox faith and its way of doing things. If the WRO service is not that different than an RC or Episcopal mass, might that not make the transition that much harder? Might it not be harder to give up the parts of those faiths that aren't the same as in your former faith if other parts are the same? Personally, I wonder if St. Tikhon meant for the WRO to be a permanent thing or whether he meant it to be a temporary thing, to make the transition between what people were used to and the Eastern Rite. There is only one Orthodoxy, not two. I wonder if the Apostles taught different types of liturgies as they started the different churches, or did they only teach one form of liturgy and one set of traditions?

You should look at my post on the Acts thread about the Ethiopian a Orthodox.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Celebrating Pascha at different times should be forbidden. The Feast of Feasts should be celebrated together.

But I know the differences started early on, I'm not denying that, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a good idea. That's what I'm asking; is it a good idea to have these differences?

I agree that pascha should be celebrated on the same day for everyone. But keep in mind that the Orthodox Church of Finland celebrates pascha according to the gregorian calendar and they are eastern rite.

I don't see a big deal with the differences. Even if there are differences the western rite is nowhere near as lax with fasting as the modern catholic church (apologies to any catholic lurkers whom I offended).

Plus there's no way I should be criticizing anyone when it comes to fasting.

M.

 

[Dylan Michael]

I agree. I think the long times of kneeling in the WRO Mass was also a distraction. I felt very weak after all that kneeling. Standing keeps me attentive.

I find just the opposite.
I guess it's just what we're accustomed to.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I agree that pascha should be celebrated on the same day for everyone. But keep in mind that the Orthodox Church of Finland celebrates pascha according to the gregorian calendar and they are eastern rite.

Where'd they get permission to do that?

 

[Dylan Michael]

I agree that pascha should be celebrated on the same day for everyone. But keep in mind that the Orthodox Church of Finland celebrates pascha according to the gregorian calendar and they are eastern rite.

I don't see a big deal with the differences. Even if there are differences the western rite is nowhere near as lax with fasting as the modern catholic church (apologies to any catholic lurkers whom I offended).

Plus there's no way I should be criticizing anyone when it comes to fasting.

M.

I do kinda wish the Church had more rigid fasting rules.

 

[choirfiend]

Gosh, the Orthodox world is so much bigger than the one or two parishes or traditions we are accustomed to--let us not cling to traditions so tightly that we never bring our head out of the sand to recognize legitimacy where there is legitimate difference*, especially if we are not particularly long-exposed to the Orthodox Church or haven't attended services at a plethora of churches.


*of course there can be incorrect things done as tradition too---this is just a reflection upon several people's comments on things being "new" to them from different traditions.

 

[Anhelyna]

Gosh, the Orthodox world is so much bigger than the one or two parishes or traditions we are accustomed to--let us not cling to traditions so tightly that we never bring our head out of the sand to recognize legitimacy where there is legitimate difference*, especially if we are not particularly long-exposed to the Orthodox Church or haven't attended services at a plethora of churches.


*of course there can be incorrect things done as tradition too---this is just a reflection upon several people's comments on things being "new" to them from different traditions.

Now there is the voice of sanity

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I really don't have a problem with different rites and customs within the Orthodox Church. Fasting is not the source of our unity. It is also obvious that the church calendar is not the source of our unity, since we are not all on the same calendar. Also, different jurisdictions emphasize some feast days over others, honor some saints over others etc. These small types of differences are not what caused the schism of the West.

Also, I really hope that there is a time when the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox return to communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church. I really don't think we would expect them to give up their liturgies and practices. Sure, some liturgies may have to be modified for theological reasons. But they are not going to become Byzantine. I know that the Ethiopians have more fasting days than the Eastern Orthodox. Are we going to expect them to fast less? Also, the typical pattern of fasting is from sunrise to sunset. Are we going to expect them to begin eating during the day in Lent?

M.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

These small types of differences are not what caused the schism of the West.

Of course not, but I was always told they did contribute to it. Maybe they contributed less than I've been led to believe however.

Also, I really hope that there is a time when the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox return to communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church. I really don't think we would expect them to give up their liturgies and practices.

This is true.

I hope I was clear when I was saying that I wasn't outright condemning these differences, I just wanted to hear people's opinions on whether or not they were a good idea. Seems like most people think they're fine.

 

[MKJ]

I wonder if the Apostles taught different types of liturgies as they started the different churches, or did they only teach one form of liturgy and one set of traditions?

AFAIK the earliest evidence we have about liturgy includes regional variations.

 

[choirfiend]

With the Orthodox communion for the first 1000 years, there were variations in liturgy. It's not like Rome was doing the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and then rejected it later. or for that matter, the Copts. Even within the East, I dont think we were consistently doing the Liturgy of St.JC everywhere, and there is still the Liturgy of St. James, St. Basil, and of course, the Presanctified Liturgy, which was codified by St. Gregory of Rome, served as legitimate liturgies.

I'm not a huge fan of WR as it in this country b/c just creating new services randomly doesn't feel so organic to me, but if a bunch of western churches returned to the Church, I can certainly see doing corrected western Liturgies.

 

[Protoevangel]

Also, I really hope that there is a time when the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox return to communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Grant this, O Lord! +