any support for Israel

Call me Nic

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I would caution you against referring to any ethnic group or any religion as "the seed of Satan." You quote Genesis Three right after this. Yet Genesis Three says nothing about Jews. Abraham and Jacob weren't around yet, that happened much later.

You also refer to the Synagogue of Satan in the first chapters of Revelation. The phrase "Synagogue of Satan" meant that there were ten men, and their families, who were Judaizers. In the Jewish law, ten men were required to have a synagogue.
Don't generalize this phrase, which had a very specific meaning when it was used in Revelation, to mean other things entirely. There is no sign that it applies to our time.
So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.
 
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gideon123

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The advice above, not to transfer hatreds and prejudices, is very good advice.

There are very powerful forces at work in the Middle East now, political forces and spiritual forces. This is an extremely dangerous time, because if more countries in the ME possess nuclear weapons, the situation will be highly unstable. Therefore, Israel has a serious concern if Iran and Saudi Arabia arm themselves with nuclear bombs. Tragically, the world has no 'trusted police force' to stop nuclear proliferation. The possibility of a greater war is very real, and some players might believe that a greater war is necessary ... to stop a nuclear war.

The plans of men are always fragile and perilous.

All we can do ...is to PRAY!!
 
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Blade

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Yes we pray for Israel. I pray for them as I do any other nation. For Israel they do not follow Yeshua nor believe in Him. As it is written Christ is the way the truth and the life. NO MAN can come to the Father but by/through Christ. Jewish or not.. you HAVE to come to the Father by way of Christ. He is the DOOR. No one can climb over or around. Many will and do try.

Now I do not believe I have replaced the Jewish people. What was meant for them 1st then the WORLD they rejected. So He gave what was theres 1st to others..other nations to make them jealous. And I don't always agree with Pastor Haggee. But he is my brother I love him I pray for him. I will not speak evil of my Fathers CHILDREN! That would be VERY unwise. Hagge belongs to a GOD. Me knowing Christ gives me NO right to speak evil negative so forth. If I dont love him that I can see and hear.. then love for the Father is not in me.

So I pray for Israel that is back in there own land NOT because they follow Christ nor believe in Him. They have a name for Christ that is NOT a nice one. So the Father put them back in there land for HIS name sake. He keeps His word. He made them a promise. He love them oh so much.. as He does the WORLD. But theres a price when the WORD comes to you 1st. There were to take His word to the world.. they did not. And Satan thinks if he can "wipe them off the planet" then Christ will NEVER return. See is it not written Christ will not come back till they call for Him.. the one they pierced. Yet HE will save them all. What ALL that means.. I do not know.. but praise GOD He is is NEVER wrong.

Its a night mar for any Jewish person to come to Christ. Anyway...they are the time clock. We watch them.. and I love them so much. And..if you know Christ..you are just as JEWISH so to speak.. as our brother Paul by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit said. Its what was BORN AGAIN. Its the exact same as what is in them that receive Christ. There is ONE body. So watch them pray for them.. He has been tring to gather them from the start. They keep running away..
 
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Dale

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So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.


You have a habit of changing the subject in the middle of a sentence.

Do you remember what Rev. Billy Graham said about Jesus and the Jews?

Rev. Graham: "Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew."

That should give you something to think about.
 
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Call me Nic

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You have a habit of changing the subject in the middle of a sentence.

Do you remember what Rev. Billy Graham said about Jesus and the Jews?

Rev. Graham: "Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew."

That should give you something to think about.
How did I change the subject in the middle of my point?
 
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Call me Nic

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You have a habit of changing the subject in the middle of a sentence.

Do you remember what Rev. Billy Graham said about Jesus and the Jews?

Rev. Graham: "Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew."

That should give you something to think about.
You're speaking of the flesh, and are regarding that which is apparent to you carnally.

I am speaking of the spirit, and that which is regarding the heart, and the mind.

Spiritually, Jews are antichrist because they reject the Messiah, if it is that they do. Jesus wasn't spiritually the same as those people. Culturally, ethnically, and traditionally he was - but what he believes was not the same thing that the Pharisees and scribes believed.

Thus is the reason why they killed him.
 
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Dale

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So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.

How did I change the subject in the middle of my point?


For instance, in Post #121, you start off talking about Genesis 3, the Expulsion from Eden, then change the subject to Gnostics, then change the subject to those who deny the Resurrection. That's way too complicated and too confusing for one sentence.
 
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Call me Nic

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For instance, in Post #121, you start off talking about Genesis 3, the Expulsion from Eden, then change the subject to Gnostics, then change the subject to those who deny the Resurrection. That's way too complicated and too confusing for one sentence.
This is post #121:
"So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says."

1 John 2:22 is not Genesis 3. Where do I mentioned Gnosticism in this? I'm only talking about the religion of Judaism. The subject wasn't ever changed to talking about those who deny the Resurrection. It always HAS BEEN about those who deny the Resurrection; again... those who are antichrist.

So, what exactly is your point? Because all you've managed to do is claim that I keep changing the subject, and have provided no scriptures to base anything you've said off of, even though I have been speaking about the same subject the entire time (the antichrist jewish religion), and have provided scriptures to base my reasoning and beliefs off of. What's the deal man? This seems like an unequal yoke here.
 
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Dale

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This is post #121:
"So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says."

1 John 2:22 is not Genesis 3. Where do I mentioned Gnosticism in this? I'm only talking about the religion of Judaism. The subject wasn't ever changed to talking about those who deny the Resurrection. It always HAS BEEN about those who deny the Resurrection; again... those who are antichrist.

So, what exactly is your point? Because all you've managed to do is claim that I keep changing the subject, and have provided no scriptures to base anything you've said off of, even though I have been speaking about the same subject the entire time (the antichrist jewish religion), and have provided scriptures to base my reasoning and beliefs off of. What's the deal man? This seems like an unequal yoke here.


I certainly don't see what Genesis 3 has to do with your determination to condemn Jews.

If you didn't mention Gnosticism, then you must not know what you are saying.

Do you agree that God called Abraham? Perhaps we should start from there.
 
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Dale

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This is post #121:
"So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says."

1 John 2:22 is not Genesis 3. Where do I mentioned Gnosticism in this? I'm only talking about the religion of Judaism. The subject wasn't ever changed to talking about those who deny the Resurrection. It always HAS BEEN about those who deny the Resurrection; again... those who are antichrist.

So, what exactly is your point? Because all you've managed to do is claim that I keep changing the subject, and have provided no scriptures to base anything you've said off of, even though I have been speaking about the same subject the entire time (the antichrist jewish religion), and have provided scriptures to base my reasoning and beliefs off of. What's the deal man? This seems like an unequal yoke here.



"The antichrist Jewish religion"??????

I can't think of a more useless phrase. I think that the Devil wants people to throw around phrases like "antichrist" so that the term will lose its force. The words are worn out, as someone has said.

Do you realize that sixty-four of the sixty-six books of the Bible were written by people from a Jewish background?
 
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Open Heart

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I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?
I am not that familiar with Hagee, but I'm all too familiar with the diseased theology of Replacement theology. It is the fertile manure in which anti-Semitism has grown for 2000 years. Most churches, including the Catholic Church, gave it up after the holocaust when they saw its fruits. Others gave it up after 1948 when Israel became a nation, because they had to concede that Israel/the Jews were not a dead people but still had a part to play in God's plan. And yet still others joined in the rejection after the six day war in 1967 which was absolutely miraculous -- it is almost impossible to deny that God is behind the success of Israel. The point is that recent history has proven Replacement Theology to be a lie, and good riddance.
 
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Dale

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So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.



When we turn to the great commentators, in John Gill's commentary on John 8:44, Gill doesn't assume that the Rabbis of his time, or modern times, share the faults of the scribes & Pharisees at the time of Christ. Instead, he examines the passage to see what we can learn about the nature of the Devil and his plans. Interestingly enough, Gill takes Adam and Eve to be victims of the Devil, and not simply as condemned outcasts. God did provide a plan for their redemption.


Link:
John 8:44 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
 
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Drought of the Heart

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I've heard different points of view about Israel and Christianity
but what exactly is a christian's obligation to Israel? This one
preacher John Haggee says it's mandatory, yet I hear other
opinions that focuses on replacement theology. What's going on?



I understand the Cross did this Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


No piece of land is not covered in blood at this point and the New Israel is our hearts since earth will pass away...I think there is much confusion on this and I believe God loves all that follow. God loves those Palestinians as well as he loves us...
 
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ViaCrucis

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The thing called "Replacement Theology" doesn't really exist, except perhaps for a few isolated cases. The people who are accused of believing in "Replacement Theology" simply don't believe the narrative that the church replaced Israel. Rather, the understanding is that the definition of what it means to be "Israel" has expanded to include all those who are baptized into Christ. It just so happens that most people who are part of true Israel are not ethnicly Hebrew (although some are).

The narrative would go something like this: at the time of Christ, Israel was a covenant people, and included all the people who were under the covenant of Moses by circumcision, whether they physically lived in that land or were part of the diaspora. At Pentecost, Israel was pruned, or underwent a bottle-necking, and only those people of Israel who believed in Christ continued to be part of Israel as a covenent people, and those who rejected Christ were no longer part of it. At that point, Israel consisted of those Hebrews who believed in Jesus as the Christ. After a very short period of time, more Hebrews began to believe, and more and more Gentiles began to believe. As such, God's covenant people of Israel began to expand, and soon, Israel consisted of more Gentiles than Hebrews. However, all of them were Israel by virtue of their baptism into Christ, no matter what their physical ancestry was. And the same is true today.

As to the present-day nation state of Israel:
They are not in Christ, and are not God's people, and as such are prophetically irrelavent. Trying to pin modern-day Israel to various prophecies in Scripture is simply a matter of horrible, HORRIBLE, exegesis and wishful thinking.

Needless to say, I pay no mind to John Hagee and the like, and couldn't care less about their opinions. None of us are under any obligation to give "Israel" any money or support.

That said, all borders are the result of conquest. Israel fought a war and won, and now they've drawn their borders on the world map. It is what it is, and now they're a country. I do not advocate eliminating them or any such nonsense, any more than I advocate eliminating the United States, or Mexico, or Australia, or any other country established by conquest. (I only say this because the Dispensationalists and the 'Muricans will always say that someone is an "anti-Semite" for not guffawing over Israel, and imagine that I want to fund Islamic terrorists, as if rejecting one requires me to embrace the other.)

Agreed. I would add though that I think Scripture offers enough to suggest that non-believing Israel is still Israel in some sense, as the Apostle indicates in Romans 3, that the unfaithfulness of some of Israel does not nullify God's faithfulness; and in Romans 11 the Apostle ultimately look forward, hopefully, toward the salvation of all Israel. How, and in what way, that ultimately looks or plays out Scripture doesn't say, but I think we can share in the Apostle's hope here: that God has not forgotten or abandoned the people of His ancient covenant, and while non-believing Israel may be separated from the fullness that is in Christ, they are not abandoned. In the end, God alone knows.

Of course, fundamental here, is that Israel was never about lines on a map, it was about people and covenant. Israel was still Israel even in the Exile and Diaspora. When the kingdom was divided north and south, the southern kingdom of Judah was still Israel. Biblically I accept that the People of God are Israel.

Simply drawing lines on a map and calling it "Israel" doesn't make it biblical Israel. I'm not against the State of Israel, I don't hate it, I accept it as a secular state existing in the world with the inherent right to exist and to its own national sovereign autonomy (just like any other nation on the planet). And I wish for there to be peace, I wish for the people there--Jew, Muslim, Christian, and other--to have peace, prosperity, and every other thing that comes from having a relatively peaceful country. But I have no religious feelings toward the secular state of Israel in the Levant, it is not prophetic, it is not a biblical entity, it is not special in any theological or religious way: it's just a country, no different than the United States, Argentina, or Sri Lanka. I wish and pray for peace because I am called by Christ to love and pray for my neighbor, to be a peacemaker, and to live peaceably: therefore I hope for, and pray for, and wish for peace for my neighbor. Regardless of who my neighbor is or where they live.

And it is precisely because in Christ I am called to love and pray for my fellow human beings that I can condemn both revolutionary terrorists and terrorism, and their acts of violence and hate on one side, as well as state terrorists and terrorism, and their acts of violence and hate on the other.

This is not a dichotomy of having to choose whether I support the state of Israel or I support the Palestinians; I support peace. I support love. I support ending hostilities. I support justice. I support compassion. I condemn atrocities, violence, hate, and evil regardless of who commits it and against whom it is committed against. If you are ideologically compelled to support violence, or ignore violence, when it is committed by the powerful against the weak simply because it is your "side" doing it, then you are in opposition to the central ethical teachings of Jesus Christ, His Church, Holy Scripture, and two thousand years of Christian religion.

There is no room for hatred against our fellow man in Christ's religion. To hate your fellow man is to hate Jesus Christ.

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." - 1 John 4:20

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Adam Raffell

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The key scripture is Romans 11:23 "And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

I agree with Dave-W's position at that the conclusion of Romans 11, Paul clarifies very exactly what he means by "all Israel". Israel here clearly includes the Jewish people.

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29).

This doesn't mean Paul thinks there are multiple 'ways' of salvation. It doesn't mean a birthright guarantees being one of God's people (that was the whole point in Romans 9:6ff about not all who are descended from Israel being Israel.) But Paul is only reinforcing here a point perfectly familiar to many Jews, that their place in the covenant comes from God's promise, not just from the family they were born into.

Romans 9-11 is all about Paul wrestling with a paradox: 1) Jews are God's people and will always be so (9:1-5). 2) Being God's people means believing in Jesus (10:10-13), but Paul's own people do not. That is the paradox 3) Has God then rejected them: In the strongest terms, NO! (11:1 and 11:11) 4) Why? Because God is going to do something amazing! "For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (11:15). It's part of a mystery of the gospel, which is about every one of us being disobedient to God, but receiving God's grace (11:30-32).

Paul is categorically convinced that his Jewish brothers and sisters ("Zealous for God but their zeal is not based on knowledge" etc, etc, (10:2), will receive grace. It's a mystery because he didn't know what that looks like in practice. I think we do well to avoid talking about mass 'conversions', Jews becoming Christians, etc. This is more likely to be a development taking place internally within Judaism, or as a consequence of Trinitarian theology which directly identifies Jesus with the God of Israel (i.e. you can't believe in one without implying faith in the other). Whatever the exact outworking, this 'mystery' is part of Paul's teaching that all Israel will be saved.

This is critical to understanding the State of Israel too. When it comes to Israel, we are talking about God's covenantal promises to them being fulfilled. If Paul clearly says they remain God's people, then the only logical conclusion would be that the promises remain relevant too pertaining to restoration to the Land.

As Christians we are called to bless Israel: both the Jewish people, and the Nation of Israel.
 
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So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.
That’s a complete manipulation of the verses to promote hatred against Jews, as was used in Medieval Western Europe. Jesus referred to those Jews who hypocritically rejected him despite knowing he was the Messiah as children of the devil. It wasn’t aimed at every Jew, considering Jesus was a Jew, and all his followers were Jews.
 
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I support Israel when they do good stuff, I criticize them when they hurt civilians.

It seems that usually it is the civilians that are attacking them that put themselves In Harm's Way.

While back with the Border clashes the protesters were lobbing bombs and rocks at Israel. The Israelis dropped pamphlets telling them to back away from the fence or they may get hurt and sure enough a few got killed. The warning was there.

The older troublemakers were telling the young ones to rush the Border as they stayed way in the background not having the guts to do it themselves knowing what would happen.
M-Bob
 
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