Any Reformed Baptists here?

TaylorSexton

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When you provided in your post an accusation against Roger Olson (I don't know Olson), a Reformed Arminian, that he misrepresented Calvinism, but you provided no evidence of this, you made assertions without evidence. That's not the way to refute anyone.

I'm not going to provide you with evidence about Olson. You were the one who made the claim against him and you did it without providing evidence of Olson's misrepresentation.

I did provide evidence, though, in video; please refer to it. Your accusation that I have provided no evidence no longer holds. Furthermore, you made the accusation against me (a positive assertion, giving you the burden of proof) that I misrepresented Olson, for which you have given no evidence. On top of this, you have repeatedly made assertions that I have engaged in logical fallacies. Are you going to demonstrate how I have? Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. You are repeatedly accusing me of things that you are doing yourself.
 
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TaylorSexton

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In the end, I regret saying anything about Olson, not because I believe I was wrong (this has not been shown to be the case, but merely asserted without evidence), as my intention had nothing to do with him; he is not even on my radar, as far as I am concerned. Rather, my main concern was showing how the term "Reformed Arminian" is historically and theologically an oxymoron, a fact which, judging by the fact that we have altogether left the topic for this silliness, I assume I did reasonably well in showing that to be the case.
 
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OzSpen

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I did provide evidence, though, in video; please refer to it. Your accusation that I have provided no evidence no longer holds. Furthermore, you made the accusation against me (a positive assertion, giving you the burden of proof) that I misrepresented Olson, for which you have given no evidence. On top of this, you have repeatedly made assertions that I have engaged in logical fallacies. Are you going to demonstrate how I have? Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. You are repeatedly accusing me of things that you are doing yourself.

In the original post to which I responded, you provided NO evidence to support your assertions. Zero.
 
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OzSpen

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[QUOTE="TaylorSexton, post: 71023227, member: 345736"Rather, my main concern was showing how the term "Reformed Arminian" is historically and theologically an oxymoron....[/QUOTE]

If you lived in the 16th-17th centuries during the lifespan of James Arminius, that was not the case as Arminius to his dying day at age 49 promoted Reformed/Reformation theology.

It may be an oxymoron to you, but it is not historically so.

Roger Olson explains his position as a Reformed Arminian:

Do I call myself “Reformed?” It all depends. First of all, as a historical theologian, I think Arminius and the early Remonstrants were historically-theologically Reformed. They just disagreed with the narrow definition of “Reformed” being touted by the likes of Franciscus Gomarus and Prince Maurice (the power behind the Synod of Dort). The Reformed Churches of the United Provinces (Netherlands) by all accounts did not then (before Dort) have any authoritative doctrinal standards that excluded the Remonstrants who could gladly affirm the Heidelberg Catechism even though they wanted it revised. It was Dort that made Arminianism “heretical” within the Reformed Churches of the United Provinces. And many Reformed theologians around Europe did not agree with Dort; some from England walked out of the Synod when they saw what a kangaroo court it was and how narrowly “Reformed” was being defined there (Is Arminianism “Reformed?” 2014, Patheos).​

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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And no matter how you slice it, no matter how you try to divert away from it, in that section alone, salvation [in Arminianism] is dependant on man and his ability (free will) to chose (sic) salvation or reject it.

Dean,

Your statement is contrary to the teaching of James Arminius.

This is what Arminius wrote in response to this question:

ARTICLE XXVII (VII.)
Faith is not the pure gift of God, but depends partly on the grace of God, and partly on the powers of Free Will; that, if a man will, he may believe or not believe.

ANSWER
I never said this, I never thought of saying it, and, relying on God’s grace, I never will enunciate my sentiments on matters of this description in a manner thus desperate and confused. I simply affirm, that this enunciation is false, "faith is not the pure gift of God;" that this is likewise false, if taken according to the rigor of the words, "faith depends partly on the grace of God, and partly on the powers of free will" and that this is also false when thus enunciated, "If a man will, he can believe or not believe." If they suppose, that I hold some opinions from which these assertions may by good consequence be deduced, why do they not quote my words? It is a species of injustice to attach to any person those consequences, which one may frame out of his words as if they were his sentiments. But the injustice is still more flagrant, if these conclusions cannot by good consequence be deduced from what he has said. Let my brethren, therefore, make the experiment, whether they can deduce such consectaries as these, from the things which I teach; but let the experiment be made in my company, and not by themselves in their own circle. For that sport will be vain, equally void of profit or of victory; as boys sometimes feel, when they play alone with dice for what already belongs to them.​

Arminius illustrated his position with a simile for Divine grace and free will:

I will employ a simile, which yet, I confess, is very dissimilar; but its dissimilitude is greatly in favour of my sentiments. A rich man bestows, on a poor and famishing beggar, alms by which he may be able to maintain himself and his family. Does it cease to be a pure gift, because the beggar extends his hand to receive it? Can it be said with propriety, that "the alms depended partly on the liberality of the Donor, and partly on the liberty of the Receiver," though the latter would not have possessed the alms unless he had received it by stretching out his hand? Can it be correctly said, because the beggar is always prepared to receive, that "he can have the alms, or not have it, just as he pleases?" If these assertions cannot be truly made about a beggar who receives alms, how much less can they be made about the gift of faith, for the receiving of which far more acts of Divine grace are required! This is the question which it will be requisite to discuss, "what acts of Divine grace are required to produce faith in man?" If I omit any act which is necessary, or which concurs, [in the production of faith,] let it be demonstrated from the Scriptures, and I will add it to the rest.

It is not our wish to do the least injury to Divine grace, by taking from it any thing that belongs to it. But let my brethren take care, that they themselves neither inflict an injury on Divine justice, by attributing that to it which it refuses; nor on Divine grace, by transforming it into something else, which cannot be called GRACE. That I may in one word intimate what they must prove, such a transformation they effect when they represent "the sufficient and efficacious grace, which is necessary to salvation, to be irresistible," or as acting with such potency that it cannot be resisted by any free creature (The Writings of James Arminius, vol 1, Article XXVII 1997, Baker Book House, pp. 365-366).​

Therefore, it is false to associate Arminius's teaching with your view that an Arminian view of salvation is dependent on human beings and their ability (free will) to choose or reject salvation.

Unfortunately you may get some God + human ability for salvation among contemporary people who associate with Arminianism, just as there are some non-informed Calvinists who don't promote the views of Calvin.

Oz
 
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TaylorSexton

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In the original post to which I responded, you provided NO evidence to support your assertions. Zero.

I proceeded to provide the evidence in video (which is actually nice because not only is the evidence cited, it is dealt with by a capable and consistent Calvinist). Whether you choose to engage it is your decision. I can't make you; all I can do is encourage you to be honest.

Speaking of evidence, where is the evidence I requested for all of those fallacies you accused me of committing, or the "demeaning" statements I was making? I have asked for this on multiple occasions, yet you have conveniently ignored those requests. I find it interesting that you have spent half of your time accusing someone else of not providing evidence for their assertions regarding other people, yet in the same breath you accuse another person of many dishonest things without providing a shred of evidence.

If you lived in the 16th-17th centuries during the lifespan of James Arminius, that was not the case as Arminius to his dying day at age 49 promoted Reformed/Reformation theology.

It may be an oxymoron to you, but it is not historically so.

Roger Olson explains his position as a Reformed Arminian:

Do I call myself “Reformed?” It all depends. First of all, as a historical theologian, I think Arminius and the early Remonstrants were historically-theologically Reformed. They just disagreed with the narrow definition of “Reformed” being touted by the likes of Franciscus Gomarus and Prince Maurice (the power behind the Synod of Dort). The Reformed Churches of the United Provinces (Netherlands) by all accounts did not then (before Dort) have any authoritative doctrinal standards that excluded the Remonstrants who could gladly affirm the Heidelberg Catechism even though they wanted it revised. It was Dort that made Arminianism “heretical” within the Reformed Churches of the United Provinces. And many Reformed theologians around Europe did not agree with Dort; some from England walked out of the Synod when they saw what a kangaroo court it was and how narrowly “Reformed” was being defined there (Is Arminianism “Reformed?” 2014, Patheos).

Notice this statement: "The Reformed Churches of the United Provinces (Netherlands) by all accounts did not then (before Dort) have any authoritative doctrinal standards that excluded the Remonstrants..." (emphasis added).

This has been my whole argument, sir. I have stated it repeatedly. The Synod of Dort said explicitly that the theology of Arminius and his followers is not Reformed. Olson himself acknowledges what you and he both seem to be denying: "It was Dort that made Arminianism 'heretical' within the Reformed Churches of the United Provinces." Dort was an international synod of the Reformed Church in Europe, and set the theology in writing for the Reformed churches that would follow elsewhere. Simply saying, "Well, Arminius was 'Reformed' before Dort," is merely to deny conveniently a significant moment of history that is detrimental to one's desire to be included in a theological camp in which they in no way belong.
 
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OzSpen

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I proceeded to provide the evidence in video (which is actually nice because not only is the evidence cited, it is dealt with by a capable and consistent Calvinist). Whether you choose to engage it is your decision. I can't make you; all I can do is encourage you to be honest.

Speaking of evidence, where is the evidence I requested for all of those fallacies you accused me of committing, or the "demeaning" statements I was making? I have asked for this on multiple occasions, yet you have conveniently ignored those requests. I find it interesting that you have spent half of your time accusing someone else of not providing evidence for their assertions regarding other people, yet in the same breath you accuse another person of many dishonest things without providing a shred of evidence.

Notice this statement: "The Reformed Churches of the United Provinces (Netherlands) by all accounts did not then (before Dort) have any authoritative doctrinal standards that excluded the Remonstrants..." (emphasis added).

This has been my whole argument, sir. I have stated it repeatedly. The Synod of Dort said explicitly that the theology of Arminius and his followers is not Reformed. Olson himself acknowledges what you and he both seem to be denying: "It was Dort that made Arminianism 'heretical' within the Reformed Churches of the United Provinces." Dort was an international synod of the Reformed Church in Europe, and set the theology in writing for the Reformed churches that would follow elsewhere. Simply saying, "Well, Arminius was 'Reformed' before Dort," is merely to deny conveniently a significant moment of history that is detrimental to one's desire to be included in a theological camp in which they in no way belong.

It has been acknowledged historically that the Synod of Dort was a kangaroo court.

From the beginning the Arminian view was not held as equal to the Calvinist view nor was the true purpose of the synod to help bring about clarity to the issues in the Reformed churches in Europe. The true nature of the Synod of Dort was simply to put Calvinist in complete power of the churches in Europe. The meetings were not brothers in Christ coming together to debate theology (as Arminius supposed before his death) but to simply condemn Arminianism before it spread all over Europe (The Synod of Dort)


Please acknowledge that you failed to provide evidence when you made your assertions about Roger Olson's misrepresentation of Calvinism, to which I originally responded.

Now you have provided (after the fact of my objection) evidence in video from one of your favourite Calvinist presenters to give the evidence. That's not the way it is done. You should be the one demonstrating to me with citations from Roger E Olson that he misrepresents Calvinism. Surely your seminary would not accept your writings as assertions without evidence!

I can't see our discussion progressing to an edifying conclusion with the ducking and weaving that is going on.

Bye,
Oz :wave:


P.S. I have no idea what is causing the lines through some of my post.
 
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Dave-W

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Therefore, it is false to associate Arminius's teaching with your view that an Arminian view of salvation is dependent on human beings and their ability (free will) to choose or reject salvation.

Unfortunately you may get some God + human ability for salvation among contemporary people who associate with Arminianism, just as there are some non-informed Calvinists who don't promote the views of Calvin.
I think that is the reason many contemporary Free Will believers take that from Wesley. Hence the title "Wesleyan Arminianism. " (whether or not they are actually Methodists of some stripe)
 
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JM

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'Reformed' and 'Calvinism' are the same only in common use. They are not the same for those who understand or have read theological works, understand the hermeneutic principles of the Reformed church or have read the Reformed Confessions of Faith. To be Reformed is to be more than a Calvinist. To be a Calvinist refers to ones soteriology.

Ex.

John MacArthur is a Calvinist in soteriology only but he is not Reformed. By his own confession Pastor MacArthur is a leaky Dispensationalist.

John Piper is a Calvinist in soteriology only but he is not Reformed and he has admitted to such on his website where he confesses to believe in a blend of Dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology.

James White is Reformed. He subscribes to a Reformed Confession of Faith, believes in covenant theology, Calvinist soteriology, the third use of the moral Law, Regulative Principle of Worship, etc.

Albert N. Martin is Reformed. He subscribes to a Reformed Confession of Faith, believes in covenant theology, Calvinist soteriology, the third use of the moral Law, Regulative Principle of Worship, etc.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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TaylorSexton

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Now you have provided (after the fact of my objection) evidence in video from one of your favourite Calvinist presenters to give the evidence. That's not the way it is done. You should be the one demonstrating to me with citations from Roger E Olson that he misrepresents Calvinism. Surely your seminary would not accept your writings as assertions without evidence!

Again, you have the evidence before you. Whether or not you decide to use it is beyond my power—but well within yours. At least I have provided something. Also, so what if it is a Calvinist in the video? Surely you wouldn't expect an Arminian to claim misrepresentation and deal at length with the faulty assertions and argumentation of such a book, would you? Of course not! I would certainly not expect to find an Arminian taking issue with such a book. Opposing views deal with each other; that is absolutely "how this works." Please, don't be silly. Why would I go at length to cite evidence and form arguments when someone much smarter and more capable than me has done it already, and it is documented in such an easy format? Hence, I provided the videos.

Also, you keep bringing up my being in seminary. I do not appreciate the fact that you are using this as a weapon against me. Let me inform you of something, in case you are unaware: This is an online forum, not a research committee; this is an online forum, not a master's level systematics class; this is an online forum, not a repository of research papers. Your avoidance of the evidence now cited is more than clear by this persistent behavior and rhetoric, and fairness seems to be eluding you, my friend. Again, the evidence is there for your easy viewing pleasure; in it Dr. White deals with Olson's work (at least part of it). If you don't want to deal with it, just say so plainly, but do not keep claiming that I have given no evidence. The New Covenant has not made false witness acceptable, I assure you.

On that note, I notice you continue to ignore my requests to provide evidence for your assertions against me regarding supposed fallacies and "demeaning" posts. What you accuse me of doing you continue to do yourself.
 
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OzSpen

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Again, you have the evidence before you. Whether or not you decide to use it is beyond my power—but well within yours. At least I have provided something. Also, so what if it is a Calvinist in the video? Surely you wouldn't expect an Arminian to claim misrepresentation and deal at length with the faulty assertions and argumentation of such a book, would you? Of course not! I would certainly not expect to find an Arminian taking issue with such a book. Opposing views deal with each other; that is absolutely "how this works." Please, don't be silly. Why would I go at length to cite evidence and form arguments when someone much smarter and more capable than me has done it already, and it is documented in such an easy format? Hence, I provided the videos.

Also, you keep bringing up my being in seminary. I do not appreciate the fact that you are using this as a weapon against me. Let me inform you of something, in case you are unaware: This is an online forum, not a research committee; this is an online forum, not a master's level systematics class; this is an online forum, not a repository of research papers. Your avoidance of the evidence now cited is more than clear by this persistent behavior and rhetoric, and fairness seems to be eluding you, my friend. Again, the evidence is there for your easy viewing pleasure; in it Dr. White deals with Olson's work (at least part of it). If you don't want to deal with it, just say so plainly, but do not keep claiming that I have given no evidence. The New Covenant has not made false witness acceptable, I assure you.

On that note, I notice you continue to ignore my requests to provide evidence for your assertions against me regarding supposed fallacies and "demeaning" posts. What you accuse me of doing you continue to do yourself.

Present it in brief form with documentation. I don't plan to wade through one of your favourite Calvinist presenters to find what he says against Olson.

It is your responsibility to do it on this forum. Giving links is a lazy approach.

Oz
 
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TaylorSexton

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Present it in brief form with documentation. I don't plan to wade through one of your favourite Calvinist presenters to find what he says against Olson.

It is your responsibility to do it on this forum. Giving links is a lazy approach.

Oh, is that so? You mean just like the raw links you provided in posts 6, 9, 13, 18 and 19? Do you you normally operate in such a dishonest fashion, a dishonesty so blind you don't even have the wisdom to look back at your own posts to see if you are doing the very things you ridicule others for doing (this has been a pattern for you)?

You certainly are becoming ridiculous. You accuse others of many things that you do yourself, yet you (continue to) provide no evidence; you are presented with evidence, yet you constantly accuse me of providing no evidence; you are presented with evidence, and you arrogantly continue this ridiculous conversation, all the wile admitting that you have no wish to deal with the evidence, simply because it will take too much of your precious time and effort (and I'm lazy?!). (I could easily throw in one of your own seminary jabs, but I am better than that.) How foolish to reject evidence simply because it is a video rather than writing. No, I see the real motives behind your resistance; you and I both know hat it is.

Are you totally blind to your behavior, sir? Are you utterly oblivious to your double standard? I have repeatedly asked you to provide evidence of the things you accuse me of, yet you continue to ignore them, all the while you have the utter audacity to refuse to deal with the evidence I actually presented, simply so that you can have the wicked pleasure of continuing to bear false witness against me. How Christ-like!

Either deal with the evidence presented, or confess that you have nothing of contribution to say.
 
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South Bound

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G'day from down under! Are there any other Reformed Baptists here? Is there a Reformed theology section on CF?

God bless

Reformed Baptist here. There's a Reformed forum and a Baptist forum but no Reformed Baptist forum.

Although they did just start a firearms forum so maybe they'll start one.
 
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Dave-W

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OzSpen

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Oh, is that so? You mean just like the raw links you provided in posts 6, 9, 13, 18 and 19? Do you you normally operate in such a dishonest fashion, a dishonesty so blind you don't even have the wisdom to look back at your own posts to see if you are doing the very things you ridicule others for doing (this has been a pattern for you)?

I did not provide links without explanation. You provided statements against Olson in your original post, without documentation. Where have you now provided quotes from Roger E Olson with documentation?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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'Reformed' and 'Calvinism' are the same only in common use. They are not the same for those who understand or have read theological works, understand the hermeneutic principles of the Reformed church or have read the Reformed Confessions of Faith. To be Reformed is to be more than a Calvinist. To be a Calvinist refers to ones soteriology.

Ex.

John MacArthur is a Calvinist in soteriology only but he is not Reformed. By his own confession Pastor MacArthur is a leaky Dispensationalist.

John Piper is a Calvinist in soteriology only but he is not Reformed and he has admitted to such on his website where he confesses to believe in a blend of Dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology.

James White is Reformed. He subscribes to a Reformed Confession of Faith, believes in covenant theology, Calvinist soteriology, the third use of the moral Law, Regulative Principle of Worship, etc.

Albert N. Martin is Reformed. He subscribes to a Reformed Confession of Faith, believes in covenant theology, Calvinist soteriology, the third use of the moral Law, Regulative Principle of Worship, etc.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

jm,

I'm a leaky Reformed Arminian who does not accept Arminius's theology of paedo-baptism.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I think that is the reason many contemporary Free Will believers take that from Wesley. Hence the title "Wesleyan Arminianism. " (whether or not they are actually Methodists of some stripe)

Dave,

Where does Wesley state that salvation is dependent on God + human ability? It may be true but I haven't seen direct quotes from his works that reach that conclusion.

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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As has been shown previously, a Baptist like myself, may hold to some of Reformed theology. But a Baptist cannot rightfully say they are "Reformed" because it means something they don't believe in. i.e.: infant baptism just for an example.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Dave-W

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Where does Wesley state that salvation is dependent on God + human ability? It may be true but I haven't seen direct quotes from his works that reach that conclusion.
That is a great question. Since my theology now is more Messianic that Wesleyan, I would suggest you ask that question over in the Wesley's Parish folder. There are several UMC and Nazarene pastors in there much more immersed in the writings of John Wesley than I am.

I got most of my knowledge of him second had from my dad who was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom, now known just as the Wesleyans.
 
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