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Any one care to take a swing at this?

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sidhe

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It indicates similarity in style, sure. But trying to discount it as 'just another story' because it 'might be a copy' isn't going to get you very far if you don't have enough to show that it is, in fact, a copy. At least, not if you're being intellectually honest/objective.

Dude, everything is just a story. Your life is just a story to someone else. My life is just a story. "Just a story" isn't derisive, it's honest. I believe different stories from you, is all.

Do you have enough to demonstrate that it does not, in fact, draw on earlier legal codes? If not, then you can't state that it is independent if you're being intellectually honest/objective. You would have to admit to the possibility that the Israelites were influenced by the surrounding pagan cultures.
 
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Zebra1552

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Dude, everything is just a story. Your life is just a story to someone else. My life is just a story. "Just a story" isn't derisive, it's honest. I believe different stories from you, is all.

Do you have enough to demonstrate that it does not, in fact, draw on earlier legal codes? If not, then you can't state that it is independent if you're being intellectually honest/objective. You would have to admit to the possibility that the Israelites were influenced by the surrounding pagan cultures.
Just because their writing style was influenced (and might I remind you that Moses grew up in Pharaoh's court where he would have been educated in said cultures) does not mean it is made up or untrue or 'just a copy'. I can indeed say it is independent and be intellectually honest, I just cannot say it is completely independent. I would be lying so obviously I'd have to be an idiot not to realize it. After all, the writers claim divine influence and that's not very independent. But they did decide to write it down.
 
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sidhe

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Just because their writing style was influenced (and might I remind you that Moses grew up in Pharaoh's court where he would have been educated in said cultures) does not mean it is made up or untrue or 'just a copy'. I can indeed say it is independent and be intellectually honest, I just cannot say it is completely independent. I would be lying so obviously I'd have to be an idiot not to realize it. After all, the writers claim divine influence and that's not very independent. But they did decide to write it down.

So, in other words, things that are in the earlier codes that also exist in the Mosaic code aren't true in the earlier, but are in the later?

I've made no claims on truth, only on influence. ;)
 
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Sammy615

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You're confusing the matter. It is not logically impossible, it is scientifically improbable. In order to deny its possibility you would have to prove each and every law your above listed 'examples' breaks to be true beyond any doubt whatsoever. All I need to do in that case is cite the Bible and I have enough doubt to disprove your law.

Then prove that God cannot be all three if it's 'logically impossible'. Prove that the creator of the universe, who established the scientific probabilities you list as broken and breaks them quite regularly, cannot do what your mind cannot comprehend possible. You need all the evidence in the world if you're going to start talking about logical impossibilities without understanding what they are.

Well, then. To the first paragraph, I think it should be noted that the argument was that the Bible is illogical, and LOGICALLY the things I mentioned do not, and can not happen. Can you honestly tell me that you can logically deduce that Biblical findings are valid and even slightly likely? Logic plays absolutely NO part in the Bible. Are you saying that it's merely improbable, but still possible, that a man was swallowed by a giant fish and did not die? Or any of the other things listed? And citing the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true is ridiculous. That's the same as claiming that I'm right because I said so. The Bible claims to be the perfect, inerrant word of God, and it's been shown that the Bible is NOT perfect, has very many contradictions, and that as far as science is concerned, it has been wrong many times over. This is fact, not assumption.

And secondly, while it may be possible that there is a good who is either omniscient, omnipotent or benevolent... it is impossible for him to be all three. God can not love everyone, but know in advance that they will commit unspeakable sins and ALLOW them to do so and spend eternity in hell. That is by no means a ''loving'' act. If he knows who will be evil before they are even born, but allows them to be born so that they may burn eternally, that is a very cruel act. So, in order to love mankind, God must not be all knowing, or not all powerful. Free will only explains so much. Yes, God gave us free will, but he knows what we will do with that free will. He knows the people that will be hurt by it and allows it. He sends his beloved humans to earth to suffer, in order to determine who is good enough to join him in heaven. But he already KNOWS. So then, he justs wants us to suffer for fun? And how about Jesus? "For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." If God is all powerful, can you explain to me why he can't forgive us of our sins without sending his son to earth to die a horrible death? And why this would even be such a sacrifice if he KNOWS his son will be resurrected and will join him in heaven again? God didn't need to love us to do this, he never truly gave up his son. And Jesus didn't have to love us either, seeing as he knew he'd be coming back.
And what about the fact that a supernatural being would have no reason to create earth at all, if he knows already exactly how everything would turn out? Why would such a being bother? And for that matter, where did said being come from? People claim that God has no beginning or end, he just is. But they also claim that earth and humans had to come from somewhere, and that's why we need God. But why on earth is it "smarter" to believe that an all powerful being capable of creating the universe came from nothing, but the universe couldn't have done so? It's like adding another step to an already complicated question.

Perhaps it is claimed that God does things we can not comprehend because by feeling inferior, we won't ask questions. Because by hearing these impossible standards, we can not combat them.
 
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Zebra1552

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So, in other words, things that are in the earlier codes that also exist in the Mosaic code aren't true in the earlier, but are in the later?

I've made no claims on truth, only on influence. ;)
Straw man much? I never said anything like that.
 
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Zebra1552

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Well, then. To the first paragraph, I think it should be noted that the argument was that the Bible is illogical, and LOGICALLY the things I mentioned do not, and can not happen. Can you honestly tell me that you can logically deduce that Biblical findings are valid and even slightly likely? Logic plays absolutely NO part in the Bible. Are you saying that it's merely improbable, but still possible, that a man was swallowed by a giant fish and did not die? Or any of the other things listed? And citing the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true is ridiculous. That's the same as claiming that I'm right because I said so. The Bible claims to be the perfect, inerrant word of God, and it's been shown that the Bible is NOT perfect, has very many contradictions, and that as far as science is concerned, it has been wrong many times over. This is fact, not assumption.
Um... excuse me, but the Bible does not claim to be perfect or inerrant. The Bible wasn't compiled until long after the writers were dead, so that's kind of impossible. You are making a straw man argument and making more assumptions to prove your point, and in the process reiterating what you already claimed.

And secondly, while it may be possible that there is a good who is either omniscient, omnipotent or benevolent... it is impossible for him to be all three. God can not love everyone, but know in advance that they will commit unspeakable sins and ALLOW them to do so and spend eternity in hell.
Why not?

That is by no means a ''loving'' act. If he knows who will be evil before they are even born, but allows them to be born so that they may burn eternally, that is a very cruel act. So, in order to love mankind, God must not be all knowing, or not all powerful. Free will only explains so much.
Begging the question, and you don't define what loving is- the Bible defines what loving is, and it's not at all what you seem to think it is. 1 Corinthians 13, James 1, Revelation 21, and many other verses talk about what love is. It's a pretty huge concept and a few sentences isn't going to explain how God can't be loving and let evil happen.

Yes, God gave us free will, but he knows what we will do with that free will. He knows the people that will be hurt by it and allows it. He sends his beloved humans to earth to suffer, in order to determine who is good enough to join him in heaven. But he already KNOWS. So then, he justs wants us to suffer for fun? And how about Jesus? "For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Have you ever read the ENTIRE Bible? James 1? John 15? Exodus 20? Psalm 136?

If God is all powerful, can you explain to me why he can't forgive us of our sins without sending his son to earth to die a horrible death? And why this would even be such a sacrifice if he KNOWS his son will be resurrected and will join him in heaven again? God didn't need to love us to do this, he never truly gave up his son. And Jesus didn't have to love us either, seeing as he knew he'd be coming back.
Sin deserves death. That law does not change. That's why Jesus 'had' to die. And it was something mankind could relate to. Do you remember what Jesus was called? "Immanuel", meaning 'God with us'. God didn't just send His son down, He came down Himself in human form and showed that one can be human, suffer, and not sin. He set the perfect example for us to live by. And Jesus didn't just die and get brought back, He went to hell for 3 days (Matthew 12:40). Jesus was with the Father for eternity up to that point. To be separated from Him for 3 days? I can't even imagine how painful that would be. Can you?

And what about the fact that a supernatural being would have no reason to create earth at all, if he knows already exactly how everything would turn out? Why would such a being bother? And for that matter, where did said being come from? People claim that God has no beginning or end, he just is. But they also claim that earth and humans had to come from somewhere, and that's why we need God. But why on earth is it "smarter" to believe that an all powerful being capable of creating the universe came from nothing, but the universe couldn't have done so? It's like adding another step to an already complicated question.
For one thing, I don't argue that 'earth and humans had to come from somewhere', because they obviously did come from somewhere. The question is where that is. I have no doubt that God is involved, but I don't claim it's obvious or scientific.
For another, why should we assume that God would have no point in creating earth and the universe? Because you say so? Because you assume so? Because He already knows what happens intellectually? Guess what? I can read about the sinking of the Titanic all I want, but that doesn't mean I experience the true tragedy of that night. I can read until there's nothing more to know and still lack the emotional and experiential process that going through the night would bring. Reading isn't good enough.

Perhaps it is claimed that God does things we can not comprehend because by feeling inferior, we won't ask questions. Because by hearing these impossible standards, we can not combat them.
Perhaps, but not by me.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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by Dr. Jason Lisle, AiG–U.S.May 15, 2009
Drjasonlisle.png

"The Bible is the Word of God because it says it is and any alternative leads to absurdity.

If the Bible were not the Word of God, we would have no foundation for all the things we take for granted, such as laws of logic, uniformity of nature, and morality. The law of non-contradiction, for example, is based on the self-consistent nature of the biblical God (2 Timothy 2:13).

. . . it is the Bible that tells us that God will uphold the future as He has the past (Genesis 8:22). All science depends upon such uniformity. "

source

So if I read this correctly, if the Bible, a book, was not the word of god but simply a concocted mythology, we would have no logic (A + B = C). Nature would not have any uniformity(?) what so ever; and everyone would be morally bankrupt. Doesn't sound good no matter how you slice it.



It does still stand however. Atheists still have yet been able to explain the uniformity of nature, creation and causation ex-nihilo, presupptionalism and theonomy, absolute and universal unchanging truth, ultimate perfection, teleology, intelligent cause and purpose, anthropic principle, and irreducible and specified complexity.

In my opinion the atheist answers to these questions is akin to a Lexus LS series falling right out of the sky with navigational GPS. Then again, I don't even think a Lexus LS series could compare to the complexity of the human eye.
 
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sidhe

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Straw man much? I never said anything like that.

Nor did I voice the argument you attribute to me. I made no claims of any of these moral codes being "true", just that they influenced one another.

You, however, did bring up truth, and seemed insistent that the Judaeo-Christian code is true and unique, and bears no influence from other cultures.
 
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Zebra1552

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Nor did I voice the argument you attribute to me. I made no claims of any of these moral codes being "true", just that they influenced one another.
I never said anything about the truth of the other codes...

You, however, did bring up truth, and seemed insistent that the Judaeo-Christian code is true and unique, and bears no influence from other cultures.
I never said it bears no influence. I said it wasn't just another copy. As in it's more complicated than that?
 
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gnomon

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Just because their writing style was influenced (and might I remind you that Moses grew up in Pharaoh's court where he would have been educated in said cultures) does not mean it is made up or untrue or 'just a copy'. I can indeed say it is independent and be intellectually honest, I just cannot say it is completely independent. I would be lying so obviously I'd have to be an idiot not to realize it. After all, the writers claim divine influence and that's not very independent. But they did decide to write it down.

To be intellectually honest you would not state with certainty that Moses grew up in Pharaoh's court. Why? The only source for this is the Bible. What book is in question? The Bible.

That you would state so easily an assertion of fact about Moses, a historical figure with basically zero independent evidence of existence outside the Bible. He might have existed but no factual claims put forward rely on any solid evidence. They rely on faith. So not only is merely asserting the existence of Moses as a possible real figure in history but to say that he grew up in the court of the pharaoh and the extent of his knowledge......

Just saying.

If people want to make claims of intellectual honesty.
 
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Belk

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It does still stand however. Atheists still have yet been able to explain the uniformity of nature,

You want Atheists to explain why they believe the same physical laws govern the entire universe?
creation and causation ex-nihilo,
:confused: You want an Atheist to explain something I have never heard an Atheist claim to believe in?
presupptionalism and theonomy,
Now they need to explain specific christian schools of thought as well?
Presuppositional apologetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Theonomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
absolute and universal unchanging truth, ultimate perfection,
Come up with some evidence that these exist and we will talk
teleology, intelligent cause and purpose, anthropic principle,
All of which presuppose, with no evidence, that the universe was not only created, but created with a pourpose
and irreducible and specified complexity.
Debunked
The Flagellum Unspun

In my opinion the atheist answers to these questions is akin to a Lexus LS series falling right out of the sky with navigational GPS. Then again, I don't even think a Lexus LS series could compare to the complexity of the human eye.

As is your right. However the vast majority of christians have the exact same answers to many of these questions and see no problem holding those positions and their faith at the same time.
 
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Zebra1552

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To be intellectually honest you would not state with certainty that Moses grew up in Pharaoh's court. Why? The only source for this is the Bible. What book is in question? The Bible.
It is not the book that is in question, it is the morals and laws contained therein. What moral or law is there in Moses growing up in Pharaoh's court?
That you would state so easily an assertion of fact about Moses, a historical figure with basically zero independent evidence of existence outside the Bible. He might have existed but no factual claims put forward rely on any solid evidence. They rely on faith. So not only is merely asserting the existence of Moses as a possible real figure in history but to say that he grew up in the court of the pharaoh and the extent of his knowledge......
To back any of this you would first have to show that the Bible is not a historical document. Are you prepared to show this?

Just saying.

If people want to make claims of intellectual honesty.
Yes, the pot and the kettle indeed. I take it you haven't read Blomberg.
 
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