Any Liberal Pentecostals?--Pentecostal/Charismatic Only

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lismore

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AudioArtist said:
I'm probably quite liberal in some ways. I, like you, don't believe in a literal interpretation of genesis...I just don't think it makes any scientific sense and it doesn't match the data we have found out about the history of the universe today. .

:D

What data have we found out about the universe today?

A couple of areas I studied at Uni- fluvial geomorphology (river sediments) and archaeology- there is data in these that makes anything other than a literal Genesis impossible. There has been lots of work done in this field and Hutton's ideas are now untenable for a variety of reasons.

Recent archaeological discoveries in the Genealogies of the ancient peoples- especially from Ur and Sumer have undermined a lot of assertions about the book of Genesis being copied from babylonian or Egyptian sources..........its now suggested that the book of genesis is the oldest in the world. Work in this field has returned to the point of view it had in the 1920s, when the then inspector general of antiquities for Egypt could claim in his book on Pharoah Ahkenaten that the Egyptians and ancient Babylonians were copying some of their ideas from the book of Genesis.

We are faced with the alarming prospect that the book of genesis is very old and there is no reason to suspect the authors were not talking literally.

From the bible several of the patriarchs lives ran concurrently. Did you know Noah was alive during Abrahams young years? they could have talked. Methusaleh's life stretched 969 years- Adam's was long as well. Adam-Methusaleh-Noah- Abraham. How long is this to hand down? Perhaps Discoveries suggest the creation narrative in its present from was known to Abraham......he could have talked with someone who knew Methusaleh, who himself could have talked with Adam.

Plus, if there is no literal fall, there is no literal redemption. No first adam, no last adam.


:)
 
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lismore

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Hi:wave:

I follow the catholic teachings on this one:blush: . Sex is for a couple, to procreate in a marriage and bring a child into a loving environment. People who dont want a baby, perhaps should not be taking steps towards having one!


AdonaiShalom said:
Yeah I don't think abortion is right but I do think that making it illegal may cause a lot more problems than it solves



I don't doubt ex-gay ministry works sometimes - it woks for those people who aren't really gay.
.


Jesus healed the lame, the blind and raised the dead. He has no trouble in freeing gays. Whoever the son sets free is free indeed.

AdonaiShalom said:
There isn't any scientific proof that people aren't born gay either. You can only go on your own experience of course, and my experience has shown me that people really are born gay. I have no doubt about that.

Whether people are born gay or not, I believe Jesus can heal. I was at a meeting where someone with Downs Syndrome was healed from this.

Jesus can set a gay person free. By his wounds we were healed. Through him we are redeemed, cleansed, ramsoned back, healed , delivered, protected, born again, washed with hyssop, sanctified and turned into a royal priesthood.


Thats my tuppences worth anyway!

Thanks for sharing!

:wave:
 
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lismore

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Upon_This_Rock said:
Well, I don't believe in a literal 7 day creation either, and I am not liberal.

Hi:wave:

Is Jesus literal then? The NT writers seemed to take Genesis literally.

Romans 5:

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.


How do we know which parts to take as literal and which parts are no use?
 
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Hadron

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AdonaiShalom said:
I don't doubt ex-gay ministry works sometimes - it woks for those people who aren't really gay. Lots of people question their sexuality when going through puberty - I know I did - and i'm sure it can get to the point where people may think they are gay when they aren't, or maybe they are bisexual. I'm glad ex-gay ministry worked for you. I get the feeling that if it hadn't, life would have been really difficult for you. There isn't any scientific proof that people aren't born gay either. You can only go on your own experience of course, and my experience has shown me that people really are born gay. I have no doubt about that.

Yeah, that's a problem with Liberalism. You can see that your experience works for you and defines your truth, but then you call me a liar when I say I was once gay. You say, "You must have not actually been gay." My experience therefore doesn't count. No it doesn't work that way. I was gay and gay is not something a person is born with, though it may FEEL like it. It is one of the biggest lies from Satan.
 
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Hadron

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heron said:
Pentecostal is a denomination, but I've always used the term loosely too.


There are also nuances that people never discuss. Does a person feel gay out of identity, community, lust, interest, defiance, or honest conviction? Hadron, maybe you could shed some light on this.

For instance...

There's a strong sense of community and defiance of odds and status quo in many gay groups. How much are people drawn to this compassion and understanding, this high level of acceptance and freedom? I had friends who were trying things in their twenties just for party tricks (and too much alcohol) and dares.

If they find that they are driven in lust for members of the same sex, does that make it their correct path? If heteros are driven in lust, they also find limits for restraint, and every relationship is not right. The gay discussions revolve so much around their sexual identity, it is sometimes hard to find the rest of the person.

When a man or boy likes surface activities that were stereotypically female or gay (decorating, musicals, dance), have they been mocked by other straight boys and driven out of those circles? Do some assume that their roles are determined by rejection or default?

Okay, I've stirred up the bees. I think I'll walk away now. (-;

My personal testimony is perhaps not for this forum... I'm sure this thread will get moved at some point, so I'll go ahead. I knew from a young age that something was 'wrong'. I liked men. Instead of playing sports and hanging out with the boys, I chose to hang out with the girls, because they were more.... accepting. In my late teens, I first admitted my feelings to a lesbian friend. In my twenties, I was in the Navy, but I was so afraid of being found out that I kept it hidden well. After I got out of the Navy, I met a gay man who 'helped' me come out. That was when God left me. I'll never forget that night. That was the night that I no longer doubted where I was going. I knew in my heart that I was a condemned man and I was going to hell. I was told the 'truth' would set me free by the gay community, but what it did was put the shackles on. A few years later after many affairs and living lavish life given to every abomination, I accepted Christ. I always thought I was Christian before, but this time was different. There was a change inside that nobody could deny. My old roommate will testify that I went from passed out drunk on the couch every day, going to gay bars to pick up tricks, to holy roller almost overnight. So you see, I was gay.

Inner thought life (lust) drove me to seeking out other gay people to hang out with. Being in the gay community made it ok to be gay. But it is all sadly based on the corruption and deception of Satan.
 
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AdonaiShalom said:
Hi everyone! I describe myself as a liberal pentecostal because I'd say my views are fairly liberal (I don't think a monogamous gay relationship is sinful, I don't agree with abortion but I don't think it should be illegal, I don't believe in 7 day creation etc etc) but I love the relationship with God to be found in Pentecostal Christianity and I have had Pentecostal experiences - not speaking in tongues but shaking, fast heart rate, funny breathing and so on. I'm just wondering if there are any other Pentes or Charismatics out there who would say their views are on the liberal or moderate side of things.
Thanks heaps! God bless!

I think I'd fall into the category of a liberal Pentecostal. I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and until recently, attended one, but my views are pretty much the same as yours.
 
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GAPCanadianChristian

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Hadron said:
Liberalism is a travesty.

And just so you know, I'm ex-gay. God did not make people gay, nor are they born gay. There is no scientific proof and it is all based on heresay and feelings. That's how God can call it an abomination.


Maybe you weren't born gay, but I was.
 
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I follow the catholic teachings on this one:blush: . Sex is for a couple, to procreate in a marriage and bring a child into a loving environment. People who dont want a baby, perhaps should not be taking steps towards having one!



If this is what marriage is supposed to be based on, straight couples who want to get married should be required to take a fertility test first, because otherwise, their marriages would be invalid.
 
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GAPCanadianChristian

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Upon_This_Rock said:
Well, I don't believe in a literal 7 day creation either, and I am not liberal. But one of the things I love about Pentecostalism is that for the most part it has been protected from liberalism.

Too late... I've already infiltrated it. ;)
 
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I am reminded of a letter from Jude about these exact issues:

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:

Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 
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AdonaiShalom

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GAPCanadianChristian said:
I think I'd fall into the category of a liberal Pentecostal. I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and until recently, attended one, but my views are pretty much the same as yours.

Its nice to know I'm not the only one!

I was always taught that God wants the best for us. I have heard people say that gay people just need to be told in a loving way that God wants more for them than what they have. This completely ignores the fact that there are gay people out there who are in a loving relationship in which they feel completely respected, fulfilled, loved, not lacking anything! That is what is best for them. And then there are some people like the man my folks met at a party recently who's 15 year marriage has broken down because he is gay. Being gay isn't a disease or an affliction - its not something you are 'healed' from.

When the AIDS crisis first hit in a really bad way in the 1980s, many men nursed their sick partners, for months and years, right up until they passed away. Thats love. Thats the meaning of 'til death do us part'.
 
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heron said:
Pentecostal is a denomination, but I've always used the term loosely too.


There are also nuances that people never discuss. Does a person feel gay out of identity, community, lust, interest, defiance, or honest conviction? Hadron, maybe you could shed some light on this.

For instance...

There's a strong sense of community and defiance of odds and status quo in many gay groups. How much are people drawn to this compassion and understanding, this high level of acceptance and freedom? I had friends who were trying things in their twenties just for party tricks (and too much alcohol) and dares.

If they find that they are driven in lust for members of the same sex, does that make it their correct path? If heteros are driven in lust, they also find limits for restraint, and every relationship is not right. The gay discussions revolve so much around their sexual identity, it is sometimes hard to find the rest of the person.

When a man or boy likes surface activities that were stereotypically female or gay (decorating, musicals, dance), have they been mocked by other straight boys and driven out of those circles? Do some assume that their roles are determined by rejection or default?

Okay, I've stirred up the bees. I think I'll walk away now. (-;

Puts the bees right back in the hive they came from. :D
 
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AdonaiShalom said:
Its nice to know I'm not the only one!

I was always taught that God wants the best for us. I have heard people say that gay people just need to be told in a loving way that God wants more for them than what they have. This completely ignores the fact that there are gay people out there who are in a loving relationship in which they feel completely respected, fulfilled, loved, not lacking anything! That is what is best for them. And then there are some people like the man my folks met at a party recently who's 15 year marriage has broken down because he is gay. Being gay isn't a disease or an affliction - its not something you are 'healed' from.

When the AIDS crisis first hit in a really bad way in the 1980s, many men nursed their sick partners, for months and years, right up until they passed away. Thats love. Thats the meaning of 'til death do us part'.

I agree with you completely. I am a gay man. I feel no guilt over that fact, and I know that God loves me just as I am... just as He created me. Thank you for your kind words.
 
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