Any Liberal Pentecostals?--Pentecostal/Charismatic Only

[AdonaiShalom]

Hi everyone! I describe myself as a liberal pentecostal because I'd say my views are fairly liberal (I don't think a monogamous gay relationship is sinful, I don't agree with abortion but I don't think it should be illegal, I don't believe in 7 day creation etc etc) but I love the relationship with God to be found in Pentecostal Christianity and I have had Pentecostal experiences - not speaking in tongues but shaking, fast heart rate, funny breathing and so on. I'm just wondering if there are any other Pentes or Charismatics out there who would say their views are on the liberal or moderate side of things.
Thanks heaps! God bless!

 

[JimB]

I once voted for a Democrat. Does that make me a liberal Pentecostal?

Actually, I believe there is room for disagreement on issues like the ones you mentioned, even among Spirit-filled believers. Actually, when I was a Pentecostal (I’m Vineyard now) my personal beliefs were definitely outside the pale of mainstream Pentecostal beliefs and I was considered “liberal” by some of my more Fundamentalist-inclined Pentecostal brothers. That was okay, because I considered them Pharisees and that evened the score.

Anyhow, time and chance led me from a rigid Southern-style flavor of Pentecostalism (sort of tart and bitter, if I remember correctly) and into a more accepting form of Charismatic Christianity and later into the Vineyard.

So, you may have to consider moving on if you continue to hold “liberal” beliefs. Of course ones man’s liberalism is another man’s orthodoxy.

~Jim

 

[irenemcg]

How about a Biblical Viewpoint on things? Does that not count any more?

 

[lismore]

Hi everyone! !

Hi

I describe myself as a liberal pentecostal because I'd say my views are fairly liberal (I don't think a monogamous gay relationship is sinful, I don't agree with abortion but I don't think it should be illegal, I don't believe in 7 day creation etc etc)

!

On these three issues .

but I love the relationship with God to be found in Pentecostal Christianity and I have had Pentecostal experiences - not speaking in tongues but shaking, fast heart rate, funny breathing and so on. I'm just wondering if there are any other Pentes or Charismatics out there who would say their views are on the liberal or moderate side of things.
Thanks heaps! God bless!

Im very liberal in a lot of areas- but not in any area that compromises some of the basic truths of the faith. These three Im afraid are fairly basic truths.

Our 7 day week is based on the 7 day creation translated from the hebrew-'yom'.

God promotes a marriage between two persons, of opposite gender. Wait for it- God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! God calls same sex relations 'perversion' , but there is good news for the gay person. There is no-one Jesus cannot save, touch, or turn around if you come to him. Jesus sets gays free. In Glasgow there is an ex-gay pastor- Simon Foster who was set free from the gay spirit.

Killing an unborn person is already illegal in God's sight and always will be.

 

[AdonaiShalom]

I could give you boring long winded answers for why I hold my views (my liberalism does go beyond just these three issues) but this probably isn't the place - but I will if you're interested...let me know.

But I wouldn't call these things basic truths of faith - I'd I'd list basic truths of faith as things like the divinity of Jesus, His ressurection, the grace he won for us etc. which I do believe in.
Which of your beliefs would you class as liberal?

 

[lismore]

I could give you boring long winded answers for why I hold my views (my liberalism does go beyond just these three issues) but this probably isn't the place - but I will if you're interested...let me know.

But I wouldn't call these things basic truths of faith - I'd I'd list basic truths of faith as things like the divinity of Jesus, His ressurection, the grace he won for us etc. which I do believe in.

hi Friend

Please dont be afraid of boring me- Im interested to hear what you say. If you want to post something of any length about this- I would be grateful . We are all on the same team- dont worry about condemnation.

God Bless

Lismore

 

[BillynJennifer]

I once voted for a Democrat. Does that make me a liberal Pentecostal?

Actually, I believe there is room for disagreement on issues like the ones you mentioned, even among Spirit-filled believers. Actually, when I was a Pentecostal (I?m Vineyard now) my personal beliefs were definitely outside the pale of mainstream Pentecostal beliefs and I was considered ?liberal? by some of my more Fundamentalist-inclined Pentecostal brothers. That was okay, because I considered them Pharisees and that evened the score.

Anyhow, time and chance led me from a rigid Southern-style flavor of Pentecostalism (sort of tart and bitter, if I remember correctly) and into a more accepting form of Charismatic Christianity and later into the Vineyard.

So, you may have to consider moving on if you continue to hold ?liberal? beliefs. Of course ones man?s liberalism is another man?s orthodoxy.

~Jim

I don't mean to de-rail and hi-jack the post, but Jim I thought the Vineyard church was Pentecostal? Is there a difference? Back to the discussion, now.

Billy

 

[AdonaiShalom]

Ok well
I don't think that the Genesis story can really be married up with science these days but I don't think that is such a problem either - people at the time people wanted answers but could never have understood the physics of the origins of the universe so God gave them a story that still encapsulated the big stuff - that we are made in Gods image (however you want to interpret that), that we have a tendency to want to use our free will for the wrong reasons, that God desires a relationship with us.

The gay issue is a bigger one - I don't think the Bible condemns monogamous Gay relationships anywhere. In Biblical times there was no concept of 'homosexuality' as we know it today. It was believed that everyone was naturally straight, but some occasionally deviated from this in the pursuit of lust. We know now, though, that gay people desire the same commitment, romance, trust, security and love that heterosexual people do. I've been lucky enough to know lots of gay people who I could bounce questions off, and from them I have been convinced that you are born gay - it doesn't come from an absent or domineering parent, or any other external influence. So why would God create you in such a way if it was such an abomination? I think ex-gay ministry works sometimes - I think young people can sometimes be confused when their sexuality awakens as they go through puberty, and I don't doubt that many people have been helped. But ex-gay ministry has claimed a lot of victims too - there are lots of stories of people going into a marriage, only to leave it, or worse, commit suicide, a few years down the track because they feel as though they have tried to force themselves into being something they're not. So I've come to that conclusion through what I've read of biblical scholarship but also, more importantly, through my life experience (you really would be suprised at just how many gay people I have become friends with in my life - one of the benefits of working in the arts )

As for abortion, I think its an absolute tragedy, but if its made illegal then it leads to girls who feel they have no choice having it done illegally in someone's backyard in awful circumstances - how much better would it be if they had somewhere safe they could go, where they could get counselling as well?

 

[Hadron]

Liberalism is a travesty.

And just so you know, I'm ex-gay. God did not make people gay, nor are they born gay. There is no scientific proof and it is all based on heresay and feelings. That's how God can call it an abomination.

 

[AudioArtist]

I'm probably quite liberal in some ways. I, like you, don't believe in a literal interpretation of genesis...I just don't think it makes any scientific sense and it doesn't match the data we have found out about the history of the universe today. Even if it did remotely match scientific discoveries, I've always found the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve to make more sense if interpreted in a more metaphorical manner.

I also do not think people "choose" to be gay. I have met gay people who told me that they actually spent years in denial, desperately trying to be straight. Eventually, they just had to accept what they were. So, that's a tough one, really. I know God says it's wrong, but I can't jump on the harsh, and in my opinion, horrible, condemnation of gay people as peverts and disgusting sinners. Sure, some may have chosen to live that lifestyle, but it's a very complex issue, and at the end of the day they are looking for somebody to love and be with, just like straight people.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread...heheh. Just to say, you're not alone. I do think abortion is utterly wrong, though.

 

[AdonaiShalom]

Yeah I don't think abortion is right but I do think that making it illegal may cause a lot more problems than it solves

Liberalism is a travesty.

And just so you know, I'm ex-gay. God did not make people gay, nor are they born gay. There is no scientific proof and it is all based on heresay and feelings. That's how God can call it an abomination.

I don't doubt ex-gay ministry works sometimes - it woks for those people who aren't really gay. Lots of people question their sexuality when going through puberty - I know I did - and i'm sure it can get to the point where people may think they are gay when they aren't, or maybe they are bisexual. I'm glad ex-gay ministry worked for you. I get the feeling that if it hadn't, life would have been really difficult for you. There isn't any scientific proof that people aren't born gay either. You can only go on your own experience of course, and my experience has shown me that people really are born gay. I have no doubt about that.

 

[Adammi]

Hi everyone! I describe myself as a liberal pentecostal because I'd say my views are fairly liberal (I don't think a monogamous gay relationship is sinful, I don't agree with abortion but I don't think it should be illegal, I don't believe in 7 day creation etc etc) but I love the relationship with God to be found in Pentecostal Christianity and I have had Pentecostal experiences - not speaking in tongues but shaking, fast heart rate, funny breathing and so on. I'm just wondering if there are any other Pentes or Charismatics out there who would say their views are on the liberal or moderate side of things.
Thanks heaps! God bless!

Well, I don't believe in a literal 7 day creation either, and I am not liberal. But one of the things I love about Pentecostalism is that for the most part it has been protected from liberalism.

 

[merryheart]

I consider myself a liberal pentecostal, although perhaps not quite in step with you... I find I am not instep with many, though. At church I mostly feel like an outsider.

 

[AudioArtist]

Yeah I don't think abortion is right but I do think that making it illegal may cause a lot more problems than it solves



I don't doubt ex-gay ministry works sometimes - it woks for those people who aren't really gay. Lots of people question their sexuality when going through puberty - I know I did - and i'm sure it can get to the point where people may think they are gay when they aren't, or maybe they are bisexual. I'm glad ex-gay ministry worked for you. I get the feeling that if it hadn't, life would have been really difficult for you. There isn't any scientific proof that people aren't born gay either. You can only go on your own experience of course, and my experience has shown me that people really are born gay. I have no doubt about that.

Yeah. I know a guy who was convinced he was gay for about 4 years. Now, suddenly, he realised he had made a mistake (or has changed since) and has a girlfriend. It wasn't that he was "choosing" to be anything, it's just how his instinctive desires changed.

I've also known two Christians who told me they had been changed by God from homosexuals into straight people. I believed them...but today, one has had a serious boyfriend and the other has admitted he still struggles majorly with homosexual desires.

I'm sure there are some genuine cases of someone being transformed, though.

 

[AdonaiShalom]

I know its a really difficult issue. I've prayed about it too - mostly that, if I'm wrong, God will give me the humility to admit that, and go with him on it. But there are few things I continue to be so convinced of. I used to be a lot more liberal - at one time I didn't really believe in the bodily ressurection or the virgin birth or that Jesus actually paid the price of our sin - but God has helped me come to a better understanding about those sorts of things and I've become more and more orthodox. This, however, is the one issue on which I simply haven't budged an inch.

 

[merryheart]

I don't believe a blanket statement can be made about that topic. I believe that some HS are that way as a result of victimization, others for pride, still others are incorrectly classified that way - as they were born with indeterminate gender. (since homo means same, you have to have a determined gender for that to apply) however, a caution - this thread is walking a line set by Erwin for this board. If this thread commits to that discussion, it will get moved out of this forum, and into the fray)

 

[SharonL]

How about a Biblical Viewpoint on things? Does that not count any more?

Could not have said it better - it doesn't matter what we think, the Bible speaks pretty clear on most subjects. If something is blatantlly wrong in the Bible - it is wrong, no matter how we look at it.

 

[Victory of the Cross]

No Comment

 

[JimB]

How about a Biblical Viewpoint on things? Does that not count any more?

But it always comes back around to whose biblical viewpoint, yours or mine? ... Or haven’t you noticed in this forum?

~Jim

 

[JimB]

Liberal is a relative term. To a Pentecostal, Charismatics are liberal. To Amish, Pentecostals are liberal. To a Charismatic, Third Wavers are liberal. To me you’re all liberals (just kidding).

This is a different kind of liberalism (sort of, maybe) but you know you’re a liberal if …

• If your idea of hell is having to mind your own business and not meddle in other people's lives.
• If you think the answer to ANY crime, infraction, or injustice is counseling.
• If you actually think the multicultural movement of the '90s works better than organized religion.
• If you called Vietnam Veterans "baby killers" but think that allowing a woman to suck her baby into a sink is a constitutionally protected right
• If you think that pouring blood on a $1,500 fur coat is a sure-fire way to get your message across, but if anyone protests outside an abortion clinic, they're kooks!
• If you think that Joe Camel and big tobacco are out to kill your babies, but allowing a babies brain to be sucked out of its skull when it's 1/3 of the way out of the birth canal is paramount to a free society.
• If you think trees have feelings, animals can conceptualize and the fetus is a blob of protoplasm.
• If you think those child-abusing, religious fanatics at Waco had it coming but the illegal immigrants roughed up by California deputies - after leading them on a high-speed chase - are victims.
• If you pale at the execution of child killers, but defend the killing of unborn children as an expression of choice.
• If you wear a red ribbon to show your support for a cure for AIDS but oppose all animal experimentation needed to find that cure
• If you don't want the Christian Right imposing their morality on you, but you want to impose big government on everyone else because they won't do the right thing.
• If you use the term 'open-minded' and don't care that it can't be defined in absolute terms.
• If you believe that posting the "Ten Commandments" in schools will hurt the children, but putting "Heather Has Two Mommies" or "Ask Alice" (on the internet) won't.
• If you think that the only acceptable hate crime is Christian bashing.
• If you think only white people can be racist.
• If you think that teenager's sexual behavior is uncontrollable, but hardened violent criminals should be released on parole after serving a cut sentence in a "correctional institution".
• If you use the words "right wing extremist" at least four times in any given day.
• If you believe that the "700 Club" are a group of fakes or actors but the people on "The Jerry Springer" show are real people.
• If you complain that your community has too many white people and the church you go to doesn't have enough ethnicity, but you're the first one with a for sale sign in your yard when blacks start moving in.
• If you think what Hitler did to the Jews is horrible but that the "Christian Right" is dangerous and needs to be done away with.
• If your idea of compassion is giving a homeless person a shopping cart but expecting them to accept the responsibilities of life is mean spirited, racist, bigoted, etc.
• If you think that tax cuts hurt poor people and are uncompassionate but taking 30% from their paychecks is compassionate.
• If you think that the only way the tragedy in Littleton, CO could have been avoided was to restrict the access of the guns, two of which were bought on the black market.
• If you think the best way to care about a disease is to wear a ribbon.
• If you point to God's forgiveness of King David in reference to Bill Clinton but "forget" to acknowledge the scripture about the ruin that he inflicted on his family, his kingdom and himself.
• If you think a moment of silent prayer at the beginning of the school day constitutes government indoctrination and an intrusion on parental authority, while sex education, condom distribution and multiculturalism are values-neutral.
• If you want to outlaw cigarettes and legalize marijuana
• If you believe the National Rifle Association helps criminals while the American Civil Liberties Union protects the innocent.
• If you view race riots as justifiable expressions of rage over injustice and fail to see the similarities between a black mob burning a Korean store and a white mob in the Jim Crow era lynching a black man.
• If you continually say that conservatives have no sense of humor, but after reading this list, think that I am cold and mean-spirited.

~Jim