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Any Calvinists here?

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Grumpy Old Man

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I was looking into Calvinism a few days ago after seeing a thread in the Theology section on these forums. For those who don't know, one of Calvinism's main beliefs is that God, in his foreknowledge, predestines some people to salvation and others to damnation. It's a bit of a puzzling paradox.

Anyway, I wanted to ask any Calvinists here a few questions; if God knows in advance those who won't get saved, why did he make them? What purpose do the unsaved serve? Does God just want to watch some people burn in hell or something? Why doesn't he just make people who believe in him? I'm pretty sure that in 1 or 2 Peter it says that God desires all people to be saved. How can he say this when Calvinism specifically states that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?
 

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I'm not a calvanist, but predestination is something difficult to wrap ones head around.

On one hand you have passages that indicate there are those who were appointed to salvation from before the beginning, and others which state 'whosoever will' may come.

But we are dealing with a God who knows the end from the beginning, and One who foreknew those of us who would become His children, those who would respond the the 'whosoever will', and those who would reject it.

Scripture states that these He foreknew "he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" Romans 8:29. Foreknowledge becomes predestination and predestination becomes the called, and justified, and glorified (Rom 8:30).

So, while it's no mystery to Him who is among His elect, those who will be the 'whosoever will', each of us still are responsible for receiving His salvation or rejecting it.

It's something difficult to grasp, because we aren't conditioned to think in terms of omniscience and eternity, but I've heard one describe it this way, as we approach the gates of Heaven, we see written on the gate, "whosoever will may come", but once we enter the gate, we see the writing on the other side, "predestined from the foundation of the world".
 
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GrayAngel

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I don't know if I would accept the label of Calvinist yet, but I do believe in Predestination.

Anyway, I wanted to ask any Calvinists here a few questions; if God knows in advance those who won't get saved, why did he make them? What purpose do the unsaved serve? Does God just want to watch some people burn in hell or something?

The unsaved were created for the benefit of the elect, to refine them. They're useful for a little while, but God has no desire to keep them.

Why doesn't he just make people who believe in him?

He did. They were called Adam and Eve. And before them, there were the angels. All of them started off knowing God, but they fell anyway. Why? I think it's ultimately because they didn't have genuine love for God. Because they had never experienced evil before, they didn't know what it was like to live without God, and they lacked appreciation for Him.

We, on the other hand, start off without God, born into a world plagued with sin, death, and pain. But when we find God, we cling onto Him, knowing He's our only hope. It's through our experiences on Earth that we come to love and appreciate God in a way that would last for eternity.

I'm pretty sure that in 1 or 2 Peter it says that God desires all people to be saved. How can he say this when Calvinism specifically states that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?

When interpreting the Bible, you must take the whole into perspective, otherwise you can take any given verse and completely misinterpret it. There are countless verses in the Bible which describe predestination in clear language.

I don't know about Peter, but I found something in 1 Timothy which might be what you're looking for:

1 Timothy 2:1-7 - I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

There are a few possible ways of interpreting this. First, this verse may be speaking of God the Son, who died for the sins of the world. His desire may be that all would be saved through His blood, but the Father may not share the same desire. While they may be the same God, the different parts of the Trinity serve different functions, and Jesus' function was as Savior.

In addition, the Bible says that blasphemy against the Son is forgivable, but that the Spirit is not as forgiving.

Second, the phrase "all people" may not mean "every single person on the face of the planet." It may be saying that God wants His salvation to reach all ends of the Earth, every nation, and that they should not exclude anyone from their cross-hairs, even the king they weren't very fond of.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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I don't know if I would accept the label of Calvinist yet, but I do believe in Predestination.

The unsaved were created for the benefit of the elect, to refine them. They're useful for a little while, but God has no desire to keep them.

Thanks for the answer. I have to ask though, if you believe this to be true about God, that he created people specifically for eternal punishment, how can you stand such a deity? Would you brutally punish one of your own children just to show the others how favoured they were?

I just find it mind boggling that people would actually want to worship a God like that. Perhaps it's because you believe you are saved and therefore feel "safe" I guess.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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This is what caused me to walk away from god. If this belief did not exist, I would probably still call myself a "believer". But it does have its weight in the Bible, so trying to throw this belief system out is like trying to ignore an alligator in your living room.

The bigger issue for me is not that Calvinism seems to be an accurate interpretation of scripture, but that it's opposite - Arminianism (Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is also based on seemingly accurate interpretations of scripture. My point is that the Christian religion is ultimately based on one's own interpretation, which is why no two Christians (or Christian denominations) will agree on the same thing. Christians will ascribe this to their relationship with God, saying that it is dynamic. I don't believe this. I think the fault lies with the Bible - it's such a muddled mess that those who actually endeavour to read it cannot help but come away confused and end up interpreting it to their own liking - hence the huge number of disparate denominations in Protestant Christendom. To prove my point, stick a Baptist and a Pentecostal (Charismatic) in a room together and ask them to discuss speaking in tongues for a bit. Both the Baptist and the Pentecostal would claim to have Christ living in their hearts, yet for some reason this Christ cannot seem to decide whether speaking in tongues is right or wrong.

As another example, I've found that when I ask questions on this forum, all I get are opinions on what scripture means yet no definitive answer from God himself, who Christians claim to have a direct line to through prayer. In some cases I've even got a bit of verbal abuse from those unable to answer my questions.

I've come to the conclusion in the last few weeks that the Christian religion is NOT based on a living, dynamic Christ living in the hearts of believers, because surely this Christ would be giving all Christians the same answer to every question. Instead, the Christian religion is based on an old book and whatever whims and emotions it draws from those who believe it. I'm still willing to keep an open mind about Christianity though. If this Christ revealed himself to me in a way I would define as irresistibly real and appealing to my reason, then I would have no logic recourse but to believe in him. However, right now, I have no such reason.
 
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razeontherock

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I've come to the conclusion in the last few weeks that the Christian religion is NOT based on a living, dynamic Christ living in the hearts of believers, because surely this Christ would be giving all Christians the same answer to every question.

Every question? Surely not.

I ask you to explain away how I came to Orthodox understanding, beginning well before age 5, from reading on my own. While raised in the Episcopal Church? The 2 are quite different. I also still patiently urge you to look into that, and you will see how silly the whole Calvinism / Arminianism stuff is.

The Faith once delivered ...
 
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razeontherock

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Ok, here is a thread yous guys can't post in, but you can read it and see Christians discussing this very concept.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7606768/

It's only up to p 4 so far, and there are many heavy hitters on both sides of the issue who have not chimed in yet. You can gather info in a fair and balanced fashion, and realize that Calvin simply gets blown out of the water ;)^_^
 
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Please read the last comment that I posted in the forum. I'm still learning to get around here. I have to tell you that I am here for you. I hope there is something I can share with you that will make a difference. I stayed in that miserable condition you described for 8 years. I probably said some of the very same things you have said but it was a long time ago. I have been free since 1987. I feel very strongly that I can help you if you want to be helped. It's getting a little late and I need to get to bed. If you want my email I will send you a personal message. We must talk!
 
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ViaCrucis

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I was looking into Calvinism a few days ago after seeing a thread in the Theology section on these forums. For those who don't know, one of Calvinism's main beliefs is that God, in his foreknowledge, predestines some people to salvation and others to damnation. It's a bit of a puzzling paradox.

Anyway, I wanted to ask any Calvinists here a few questions; if God knows in advance those who won't get saved, why did he make them? What purpose do the unsaved serve? Does God just want to watch some people burn in hell or something? Why doesn't he just make people who believe in him? I'm pretty sure that in 1 or 2 Peter it says that God desires all people to be saved. How can he say this when Calvinism specifically states that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?

I'm not a Calvinist, but my understanding of Calvinism is that to answer this question they go to Romans chapter 9:

"As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He will, and He hardens whomever He wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

As a Lutheran the problem Lutheranism has with the Calvinist understanding of Romans 9 is that it stops entirely too short. Paul's point hasn't yet been made, and doesn't get made until later on.

St. Paul's overarching declaration comes in Romans 11:

"As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you [Gentiles] were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all."

A central theme in Romans is some of the struggle between the Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome, the epistle begins addressed to the Jewish believers giving them plenty of reason to nod as he recounts the idolatry and errors of the Gentiles who followed after idols; but then immediately states that no one has a right to judge because all are guilty under the Law and all are made just by the Gospel. This theme moves through several points until the Apostle gets to what he wrote in 9, which is simply a beginning point to where he gets in Romans 11. Repeating his theme from earlier in the epistle, that all are disobedience and that God has mercy on all.

This is probably the central Lutheran criticism of Calvinism. We agree that God has predestined us to salvation apart from our will, as we both agree that the human will is fallen and incapable of choosing Christ due to the yoke of sin. Where we depart at a very central and very important point is that Calvinism reasons that since God has chosen us according to His election apart from our will then it follows (quite rationally) that God has chosen some for damnation either by divine fiat or by simply passing over them.

Lutheranism agrees that this is logical, we just disagree that it is true and biblical. Instead we believe that God chooses none for damnation, that God has not passed over some, or that (as the rest of the Calvinist schema follows) that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement) and that those chosen cannot turn away or resist God's grace (Irresistible Grace and Perseverance in the Saints in Calvinism's TULIP).

Because we believe that God desires none perish, God loves everyone, and that Christ died for everyone. We can resist God's grace, we can turn away, and God's grace is, through the Gospel promise, for everyone without exception.

Now for those taking notes it's clear that this doesn't make sense logically or rationally. Calvinism is a logical conclusion, but from the Lutheran POV it's a logical conclusion that is contrary to what Scripture says concerning God's love for everybody and that God's mercy is for every person who has ever been or ever will be.

Lutheran theologians speak of the Crux Theologorum, the "Theologian's Cross", the burden a theologian has to bear because there is no answer, no solution, no way to make sense of it: We are saved apart from any will or choice on our part entirely by the grace and will of God according to His mercy. Those who are not saved are not passed over by God, they are not chosen by God for damnation, it is their choice to resist God's grace and we can and often to reject and resist God's grace because God loves all and has mercy upon all and wants everyone to be saved.

There's no question here, that's a contradiction, it's a paradox. It makes no sense. However, says Lutheranism, we must affirm both positions: God's universal love and mercy upon all human beings and His desire for all to be saved, as well as our salvation being entirely the work of God apart from all human will and effort since we are unable and incapable of choosing Christ.

Placing the emphasis on human effort leads to despair and boastfulness, for if we see that we are failing God we despair and if we see ourselves as active agents who accomplished the right choices/acts/beliefs/thoughts then we can too easily see ourselves as elite or special over and above others.

Saying that God loves only some, has grace only on some, and that Christ only died for some and that the vast majority of humankind has been created only to exist for damnation turns God into a devil and a tyrant.

Neither of these is acceptable, therefore we have the Crux Theologorum.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GrayAngel

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Thanks for the answer. I have to ask though, if you believe this to be true about God, that he created people specifically for eternal punishment, how can you stand such a deity? Would you brutally punish one of your own children just to show the others how favoured they were?

First, we're not all God's children. That's one of those common sayings that I detest. We're all created in the image of God, but only the saved have the rights to be called God's children.

God didn't the unsaved just for eternal punishment. They serve a purpose for God on the earth, but the punishment comes out of what they did with their lives.

We have this idea of Hell as this place of fiery torment, but I doubt that's what Hell really is. I think it was a metaphor used to communicate the fact that you don't want to end up there. There was trash heap near Jerusalem that they burn up continually, so the idea of a fiery Hell worked in that context. Before Hell was first mentioned, we had Sheol and "Abraham's Bosom."

Also, Hell isn't the same for everyone who goes there. You probably don't like the idea of Hell because you imagine some normal person in there, but the torments of Hell are works-based. Greater crimes elicit greater punishment. An average atheist will not be given the same treatment as a dictator who was responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people.

I just find it mind boggling that people would actually want to worship a God like that. Perhaps it's because you believe you are saved and therefore feel "safe" I guess.

Of course I feel safe. No one would choose a system where they're on the losing side.

It's a similar thing with capitalism. The rich and the middle class love capitalism. It gives them the opportunity to flourish. The lower class, however, who struggle to pay their bills, would be much more likely to disapprove of capitalism. The system has winners and losers, but it's still a good system.

I don't choose to believe simply because it puts me on the winning side. I believe that God is right to do what He pleases with His own creation, and He is gracious beyond compare with the ones He loves.
 
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GrayAngel

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The bigger issue for me is not that Calvinism seems to be an accurate interpretation of scripture, but that it's opposite - Arminianism (Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is also based on seemingly accurate interpretations of scripture. My point is that the Christian religion is ultimately based on one's own interpretation, which is why no two Christians (or Christian denominations) will agree on the same thing. Christians will ascribe this to their relationship with God, saying that it is dynamic. I don't believe this. I think the fault lies with the Bible - it's such a muddled mess that those who actually endeavour to read it cannot help but come away confused and end up interpreting it to their own liking - hence the huge number of disparate denominations in Protestant Christendom. To prove my point, stick a Baptist and a Pentecostal (Charismatic) in a room together and ask them to discuss speaking in tongues for a bit. Both the Baptist and the Pentecostal would claim to have Christ living in their hearts, yet for some reason this Christ cannot seem to decide whether speaking in tongues is right or wrong.

As another example, I've found that when I ask questions on this forum, all I get are opinions on what scripture means yet no definitive answer from God himself, who Christians claim to have a direct line to through prayer. In some cases I've even got a bit of verbal abuse from those unable to answer my questions.

I've come to the conclusion in the last few weeks that the Christian religion is NOT based on a living, dynamic Christ living in the hearts of believers, because surely this Christ would be giving all Christians the same answer to every question. Instead, the Christian religion is based on an old book and whatever whims and emotions it draws from those who believe it. I'm still willing to keep an open mind about Christianity though. If this Christ revealed himself to me in a way I would define as irresistibly real and appealing to my reason, then I would have no logic recourse but to believe in him. However, right now, I have no such reason.

That speaking of tongues issue you mentioned is no issue at all. It's fairly obvious through the study of scripture that the gift of speaking in tongues is the lowest of all the gifts, and Paul gave clear instructions about how to use it that Pentecostals pay no attention to.

The problem isn't the Bible. It's with false interpretation. If you let the Bible speak for itself, most issues it takes a stance on will be fairly obvious to see (unless you don't want to see it, which is often the case).

One such issue it free will. I've been debating for a while, and never once have I seen a verse describe free will. Taken out of context, one verse can seem to suggest free will, but you have to interpret scripture within the context of the whole. And the whole makes some very clear arguments for predestination that you just can't skirt around.

For example, try reading Romans 9:6-21 and tell me it doesn't clearly describe predestination. You won't find any "evidence" for free will that is heavy as this.
 
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John 7:17 I guess my will can be to do God's will. I pray every day for grace to do His will but I didn't always. Many came to Jesus asking what must I do to be saved. He always knew what stood in the way of their receiving salvation. It always took an act of faith. God waits for the turning of the heart. I remember when I said no to receiving salvation. I had my eye on the world and I wanted a piece of it. 10 years later when I finished running from God, He was able to draw me in. Today, I am so very blessed with a wife, 3 children, a home, and a ministry. Something happens when a heart cries out for God. Yes, He put the desire in my heart to seek Him. He made a way where there was no way. I believed that I was not one of the elect for all those years. Doubt and unbelief, planted by a calvinist remained until I simply agreed with His word. Then I saw through all the lies in the calvinist doctrine. Faith says you must first believe that He is and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. I now believe we must surrender our own will in order to walk in His will. I believe that gets God's attention. Acts of faith, words of faith, worship in Spirit and in truth!
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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That speaking of tongues issue you mentioned is no issue at all. It's fairly obvious through the study of scripture that the gift of speaking in tongues is the lowest of all the gifts, and Paul gave clear instructions about how to use it that Pentecostals pay no attention to.

It is a big issue. I've known Baptists who said speaking in tongues was "demonic". I also lost a Baptist girlfriend once over the issue of Holy Ghost baptism. During my time in the Baptist church we were taught to avoid the Pentecostals. They were treated as weird and over-emotional.
 
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GrayAngel

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It is a big issue. I've known Baptists who said speaking in tongues was "demonic". I also lost a Baptist girlfriend once over the issue of Holy Ghost baptism. During my time in the Baptist church we were taught to avoid the Pentecostals. They were treated as weird and over-emotional.

Biblically, it is not an issue. People make it an issue when they stop caring about what the Bible actually teaches. According to Paul,

1. The gift of tongues is a good thing.

2. It is the least of gifts in importance. Not the mark of salvation that some Pentecostals make it out to be.

3. Not every Christian has it, or should be expected to have it, any more than all Christians have the gift of healing or prophecy.

4. It is meant for the purpose of communicating a message in an interpretable language unknown to the speaker, not for useless babbling.

The Oneness Pentecostals are strange and overly emotional. I was a part of their church on more than one occasion. Anyone from the outside visiting for the first time would think they were nuts. Not to mention, they tend to treat people who don't worship as chaotically as themselves as if they were less spiritual, lacking of the Holy Ghost.

Plus, their theology is pretty messed up, at least at my old church. They've been wrong tons of times.

Evidently, though, there are different kinds of Pentecostals, so I wouldn't say these things are universally true. But for members of my grandparents' church, having access to public media such as the Internet is a sin, so I don't have to worry about offending them anyway.
 
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What do you make of 1st Cor 14:2 what many call praying in the Spirit. I have heard some amazing testimonies lately of people praying for someone from another country in their language. I know the oneness people have messed up doctrine but I believe they can still have a genuine relationship with the Lord.

freedom project
 
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GrayAngel

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What do you make of 1st Cor 14:2 what many call praying in the Spirit. I have heard some amazing testimonies lately of people praying for someone from another country in their language. I know the oneness people have messed up doctrine but I believe they can still have a genuine relationship with the Lord.

freedom project

First, you have to read the whole chapter for the context. People take that one verse by itself too often, as if the words around it don't exist.

Reading through the entire chapter, I see that there are a number of points made:

1. People who speak in tongues do not know what they are saying. Therefore, it is not a conversation with other men, but with God.

2. The message is useless unless there is someone to interpret it. So then, people with the gift of tongues should pray for someone who will understand it.

3. The gift of tongues edifies the self, not the church. So then, it is less desirable than other gifts, such as the gift of prophecy that Paul really emphasizes.

I don't see it describing "praying in the Spirit" as some ritual of babbling useless gibberish.

I Corinthians 14:8-10 - Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Biblically, it is not an issue. People make it an issue when they stop carrying about what the Bible actually teaches. According to Paul,

1. The gift of tongues is a good thing.

2. It is the least of gifts in importance. Not the mark of salvation that some Pentecostals make it out to be.

3. Not every Christian has it, or should be expected to have it, any more than all Christians have the gift of healing or prophecy.

4. It is meant for the purpose of communicating a message in an interpretable language unknown to the speaker, not for useless babbling.

The Oneness Pentecostals are strange and overly emotional. I was a part of their church on more than one occasion. Anyone from the outside visiting for the first time would think they were nuts. Not to mention, they tend to treat people who don't worship as chaotically as themselves as if they were less spiritual, lacking of the Holy Ghost.

Plus, their theology is pretty messed up, at least at my old church. They've been wrong tons of times.

Evidently, though, there are different kinds of Pentecostals, so I wouldn't say these things are universally true. But for members of my grandparents' church, having access to public media such as the Internet is a sin, so I don't have to worry about offending them anyway.

I grew up in the Church of the Foursquare Gospel (just called "Foursquare"), a Pentecostal denomination founded by Aimee Semple McPherson in the 1920's. While people did speak in tongues on occasion it wasn't all that common and it wasn't stressed all that much. It was rather low on topics of importance.

In fact I was completely unaware that there were some Pentecostal churches which placed such a significant emphasis on it--including placing salvific emphasis on it--until I was much older. One of the big reasons my family began attending was due to the fact that it was a much more tolerant, accepting and non-legalistic environment in comparison to our former non-denominational church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GrayAngel

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Hey GrayAngel,
Maybe you should read the whole chapter again because verses 14 and 15 describe praying in the Spirit without understanding.

freedom project

I Corinthians 14:13-17 - For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

(14-15 underlined)

I don't see it.
 
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