Any Calvinists here?

[hedrick]

I was looking into Calvinism a few days ago after seeing a thread in the Theology section on these forums. For those who don't know, one of Calvinism's main beliefs is that God, in his foreknowledge, predestines some people to salvation and others to damnation. It's a bit of a puzzling paradox.

Anyway, I wanted to ask any Calvinists here a few questions; if God knows in advance those who won't get saved, why did he make them? What purpose do the unsaved serve? Does God just want to watch some people burn in hell or something? Why doesn't he just make people who believe in him? I'm pretty sure that in 1 or 2 Peter it says that God desires all people to be saved. How can he say this when Calvinism specifically states that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?

Unlike most other posters, I actually am a Calvinist. But I don't think Calvin ever answers this question. What he says is that God does it for his glory. Now some people read that as saying that God is showing off his power, damning people just so he can show that he can. But I don't think that's what Calvin meant.

The fact is, this is a question that all Christians, and maybe all theists, have to deal with: Why would God create a universe where so many people don't love him, and end up not being saved? I honestly don't think we know. There are guesses, and some seem plausible, but I don't think God has spoken clearly on this subject. I assume that's because we're not in a position to understand his decision. What he has told us is that he is loving.

In my view, what Calvin meant (or perhaps, should have meant) is that when we finally are in a position to understand, we will see that God's reasons are honorable, that they bring glory to him. Calvin didn't encourage speculation where Scripture doesn't speak. I think in today's context, some speculation may actually be necessary, just to show people that there are possible good reasons, even if we can't be sure exactly what God's motivations are. But I don't think Calvin felt that this was either necessary or appropriate.

I should note that the NT view of God's glory is not a typical human one. Remember that the Gospels portray the cross as showing God's glory.

As to statements that God desires all to come to him: The traditional Calvinist answer sounds like double-speak, but I'm not convinced we can do better. If God is omnipotent, then anything he wills will actually happen. So 2 Pet can't mean that God has chosen to save every one. It could mean, as Paul's uses of "all" sometimes do, that he has included all classes of people (e.g. not just Jews). Or it could mean that he has provided a way that anyone can be saved, offering salvation to everyone.

Note by the way that there is a dispute among Calvinists about whether God is truly offering salvation to everyone. Later Calvinism follows the 5 points from Dort. One of these says that Christ only died for the elect. That is not explicit in Calvin. There are Calvinists that don't believe it. How real can an offer be that God knows won't be accepted, particularly when God is responsible for everything? That's a reasonable question, although not one specific to Calvinism. But it is certainly possible for Calvinists to say that God has provided a means of salvation that is sufficient for everyone and is truly offered to everyone, even though he knows that not everyone will accept, and that in fact his plans include everything that will happen.

 

[ChrisManuel]

Verse 13 is the end of the discussion from the verses above it. Either way verse 14 says if I pray in an unknown tongue..... The purpose of prayer is a petition or a giving of thanks or a declaration of spiritual truth. Usually directed to the Lord. Why then would anyone pray in an unknown tongue?. Especially when it says specifically my mind is unfruitful. Verse 15 says what am I to do then pray with my Spirit and pray with my mind. Sing with my spirit and sing with my mind also. Verse 16 says there is a difference. Praying in the Spirit doesn't allow another person to understand. Mmmm. This was written so you or I could understand it.

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[Grumpy Old Man]

I grew up in the Church of the Foursquare Gospel (just called "Foursquare"), a Pentecostal denomination founded by Aimee Semple McPherson in the 1920's. While people did speak in tongues on occasion it wasn't all that common and it wasn't stressed all that much. It was rather low on topics of importance.

In fact I was completely unaware that there were some Pentecostal churches which placed such a significant emphasis on it--including placing salvific emphasis on it--until I was much older. One of the big reasons my family began attending was due to the fact that it was a much more tolerant, accepting and non-legalistic environment in comparison to our former non-denominational church.

-CryptoLutheran

It depends on the individual church. I've been in Pentecostal churches that were loud and musical and full of people speaking in tongues and prophesying. I've also been in fairly quiet Pentecostal churches. I prefer the Baptists myself - their services are structured, quiet and much more dignified overall. The most extreme Pentecostal/Charismatic services I've been to had people screaming, laughing, crying, dancing < staff edit >, lying on the floor moaning and other such bizarre behaviour. Those types of services always freaked me out a bit. I don't ever remember reading about such behaviour being part of the Holy Ghost Baptism in Acts or the Epistles. I remember one time I got stuck in a Charismatic service where they did nothing but sing for 3 hours. I was invited to the service being held on the next night. I politely declined the invitation.

 

[ChrisManuel]

Peter felt he to stand up and defend this whole thing saying these men are not drunk as you suppose

freedom project

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Peter felt he to stand up and defend this whole thing saying these men are not drunk as you suppose

freedom project

When I was a Christian I believed that even the weirder behaviour (laughing on the floor, dancing like an asphyxiating trout, etc) was the Holy Spirit "moving" in people. Now, as an atheist, I believe it's just an emotion response. Pentecostal services always have loads of music because music feeds the emotions and makes people do odd things when they really get into it.

 

[ChrisManuel]

I hope that it wasn't a christian using poor judgment that turned you away from God. It's sad to me that anyone would turn back from a life lived for God. God's love never fails. He will receive you back whenever your ready. However The wall you have built will have to come down.

freedom project

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I hope that it wasn't a christian using poor judgment that turned you away from God. It's sad to me that anyone would turn back from a life lived for God. God's love never fails. He will receive you back whenever your ready. However The wall you have built will have to come down.

I stopped going to church after becoming tired of the Charismatic movement. And tired of Christian behaviour. I never really fitted in anyway. I was much too quiet for the Charismatic movement. All that loud singing and dancing just wasn't me. You have to be really extroverted to get on in Pentecostal churches. I'm shy and quiet in person. So instead of church I would watch Christian TV and listen to teaching tapes from people like Andrew Wommack and Kenneth Copeland.

I didn't become an atheist until years later when I started going through a period of doubt and realizing that the Bible is completely unscientific. I eventually had to choose between science and the Bible.

 

[ChrisManuel]

Mind if I tell you a story? When my oldest daughter was real little she started begging for a horse. Every day she would bring it up! Finally, I said when you turn 12 we will get you a horse. Abbey continued to remind us how long it was till she turned 12. After she turned 11 we started looking at horses going to horse shows etc. Our financial situation was not the best and we just knew we couldn't afford one. We did have the property but not the cash. My wife said we just need to pray for a free horse. I'm ok with that. Then one Sunday my daughter comes up to me after the service and says, daddy, I just prayed for a Chestnut Quarter Horse named Spirit and he will nudge me in the chest. It went in one ear and out the other. About 3 months later I got a call from this guy, I didn't even know. I had talked to him on the phone about a horse show but we had never met. He said he knew a family that was looking for a new home for this horse. We drove 90 miles the next morning to see a Chestnut Quarter horse named Spirit. They told us we come and pick him up whenever we were ready. That week a new 90 gallon water trough a feed trough a full corral a saddle and bridle, everything we needed to get started was given to us from different people. God showed my little girl exactly what He was going to do for her. In detail! That was 5 years ago now we have another horse for my 14 year old daughter. Also free! These girls are not your average kids they lead worship and prayer at our church and most adults don't walk in the maturity they walk in. God is good all the time!

freedom project

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Mind if I tell you a story? When my oldest daughter was real little she started begging for a horse. Every day she would bring it up! Finally, I said when you turn 12 we will get you a horse. Abbey continued to remind us how long it was till she turned 12. After she turned 11 we started looking at horses going to horse shows etc. Our financial situation was not the best and we just knew we couldn't afford one. We did have the property but not the cash. My wife said we just need to pray for a free horse. I'm ok with that. Then one Sunday my daughter comes up to me after the service and says, daddy, I just prayed for a Chestnut Quarter Horse named Spirit and he will nudge me in the chest. It went in one ear and out the other. About 3 months later I got a call from this guy, I didn't even know. I had talked to him on the phone about a horse show but we had never met. He said he knew a family that was looking for a new home for this horse. We drove 90 miles the next morning to see a Chestnut Quarter horse named Spirit. They told us we come and pick him up whenever we were ready. That week a new 90 gallon water trough a feed trough a full corral a saddle and bridle, everything we needed to get started was given to us from different people. God showed my little girl exactly what He was going to do for her. In detail! That was 5 years ago now we have another horse for my 14 year old daughter. Also free! These girls are not your average kids they lead worship and prayer at our church and most adults don't walk in the maturity they walk in. God is good all the time!

Why is God more interested in giving little girls horses than feeding starving children in Africa, or stopping children being abused in Catholic churches?

I've heard many "miraculous" testimonies such as yours from Christians. I just cannot comprehend a God who could bless one child while watching another one suffer. If God is really as good as you claim, then his goodness would compel him not to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. Next time your daughter prays for a horse, ask her to pray that God would remember there are hungry children who would literally rather eat a horse than ride one.

 

[GrayAngel]

Why is God more interested in giving little girls horses than feeding starving children in Africa, or stopping children being abused in Catholic churches?

I've heard many "miraculous" testimonies such as yours from Christians. I just cannot comprehend a God who could bless one child while watching another one suffer. If God is really as good as you claim, then his goodness would compel him not to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. Next time your daughter prays for a horse, ask her to pray that God would remember there are hungry children who would literally rather eat a horse than ride one.

I don't know if you have a family, but let's say you do. When your daughter's birthday comes up, would you buy her a present, or would you tell her that there are starving children in Africa and donate the money instead?

 

[ChrisManuel]

My daughter plans on going to Africa for long term mission work. Btw you should check out Heidi Baker in Mozambique. Amazing things happening there miracles of all kinds even the dead are being raised.

freedom project

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I don't know if you have a family, but let's say you do. When your daughter's birthday comes up, would you buy her a present, or would you tell her that there are starving children in Africa and donate the money instead?

I'd get my daughter a present, but then I'm human, God is not. I'm not responsible for the entire planet, God is. If he exists. You're trying to compare me to your God. I'm not omnipresent and omnipotent. Your God, as described in the Bible, has the power to solve many of the problems in the world today. He could send rain to areas with drought, make crops grow in areas with famine, stop floods, stop earthquakes, stop tsunamis, etc. He doesn't. He watches the chaos like a kid playing a video game. This is why I believe the Bible is mostly fiction. If God were good, he wouldn't just sit back. He would take an active interest in the world he created.

 

[GrayAngel]

He does take an active interest in the world, but He's not going to solve all the world's problems. That's what Heaven is for. God's plans made good out of evil.

You've probably heard the story of Joseph, who had a dream that his brothers would bow down to him. His brothers sold him into slavery and lied to their father, telling him that Joseph was dead. Many years later, Joseph's brothers found him in Egypt, and they were afraid that he'd hold a grudge against them.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

God knows what He's doing, even if we don't always understand. We just have to trust, like a child would their parent.

 

[ChrisManuel]

If you remember your bible and I know you do. Grumpy. Man gave up the right to remain under God's loving care when he chose to disobey in the garden. Man turned over the rights to keep the garden to a liar and a thief. The day is coming and it won't be long, when God will restore everything that was stolen from us. But we will have to trust Him right up until the end. If you knew His heart you could not deny Him. Stop listening to the liar because that's all he knows how to do is lie.

freedom project

 

[98cwitr]

I was looking into Calvinism a few days ago after seeing a thread in the Theology section on these forums. For those who don't know, one of Calvinism's main beliefs is that God, in his foreknowledge, predestines some people to salvation and others to damnation. It's a bit of a puzzling paradox.

Anyway, I wanted to ask any Calvinists here a few questions; if God knows in advance those who won't get saved, why did he make them? What purpose do the unsaved serve? Does God just want to watch some people burn in hell or something? Why doesn't he just make people who believe in him? I'm pretty sure that in 1 or 2 Peter it says that God desires all people to be saved. How can he say this when Calvinism specifically states that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?

I don't claim to be "Calvinist," I've never studied or read about Calvin or his beliefs; but I would be labelled as one because of my own:

Great questions...he created them for a purpose, to demonstrate his glory (Romans 9). I believe that purpose is to influence and witness to the elect of God's power and majesty.

 

[ChrisManuel]

Hey Grumpy, btw the other day my 6 year old son said daddy, I think there is going to be an earthquake! I asked why and he proceeded to tell me about a dream he had. He said he had the dream a few weeks ago and now he was remembering the whole dream. 3 days later Oklahoma was hit by a 5.6 earthquake. It was felt way up into Missouri where we are. We are expecting many more according to the bible. Amazing huh?

freedom project

 

[crimsonleaf]

The reason I think Calvinism has such trouble answering your question without making God repugnant is because they don't believe we have free will to accept the gospel. Fatalism to that degree logically concludes that God really did create billions of people just to watch them writhe in hell. But if we do have free will, then this explains at least in part why God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, and why he has let Satan have so much time to do evil.

Hi

All the denominations I know of admit that God has foreknowledge. If so, then whether he is outside time looking down, or looking up the tube of time, or whatever method you think foreknowledge takes, God sees that some are saved and some are not - yet he created them anyway. Seems to me we end up in the same place, that God created some in the certain knowledge that they were doomed. I can't imagine God doing a final tally and being surprised, can you?

And you might want to look up the words "supralapsarian" and "infralapsarian", then we can have the "what Calvinists really believe" conversation.

 

[crimsonleaf]

<staff edit > .

My apology then, re: your writings. < staff edit > : Let's agree that Man has total free will to either accept or reject God. Now let's agree that God has foreknowledge. And finally let's ask the question for the third time - using His foreknowledge, does God see that some will freely choose Him and some will not, and does He carry on and create them anyway. It's not hard. Feel free to reply by PM < staff edit >
< staff edit >

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Have you considered that God allowed Satan to take control of the world when Adam and Eve sinned? Sin entered the world and corrupted it. The world is exactly what we'd expect from one run by Satan... except that good often happens too. The fact that good happens is proof enough for me that Satan is limited and God holds his leash.

So why doesn't God deal with Satan? Why the dithering? Furthermore, if you read Job, God and Satan seem to have a thing going where they both get to watch people suffer. According to Job, God was fully complicit in Job's suffering. Job asked for answers and all he got was a rebuke from God along the lines of "I'm all powerful and can do what the heck I like so suck it up". And then God miraculously "replaced" everything he allowed Satan to take from Job's life.

Christians use the story of Job to explain human suffering yet, in my mind, it actually paints God in an even worse light than the Devil. Satan had to ask God's permission to mess around with Job! And God let it happen. With friends like God, who needs enemies?

Reading Job, when I was a Christian, gave me the impression that we're just toys in the eyes of God. I was actually quite disturbed when I read Job, even more than I was when I first read Revelation.

So, to go back to my question, why doesn't God deal with Satan? Is God actually quite pally with Satan as Job implies? Or is God just not powerful enough to deal with Satan? Or does God just not care about the world he created?

 

[2thePoint]

So why doesn't God deal with Satan? Why the dithering? Furthermore, if you read Job, God and Satan seem to have a thing going where they both get to watch people suffer. According to Job, God was fully complicit in Job's suffering. Job asked for answers and all he got was a rebuke from God along the lines of "I'm all powerful and can do what the heck I like so suck it up". And then God miraculously "replaced" everything he allowed Satan to take from Job's life.

God will deal with Satan, when the time has come. You're reading modern, western sensibilities onto an ancient foreign culture, the anachronistic fallacy. After all was said and done, did Job himself have a problem with God? Then why do you?

This highlights the real, basic reason people reject God: pride. They don't want a God over them, who really can do what he wants, because they want to be their own gods and not have anyone over them. They put God on the witness stand and pose as his judges, as if the ant can hold to account the person who kills it for getting into their picnic food. The ant only knows what it wants and sees no reason not to have it, because it has no concept of the larger world. In the same way, we are not aware of all that goes on in the spiritual realm. The difference is that God tells us enough by which we can trust him for what he doesn't say. But that requires humility and acknowledging that he is God and we're not. You admit that God made things up to Job, yet ignore the fact that Satan had to obey God's limits. You ignore Satan's temporary jurisdiction here. Is it wrong for God to not divulge everything to us, and wrong for him to allow the consequences of even the free will of angels, and wrong for him to have an ultimate solution to what to us seems an impossible dilemma between free will and control of ultimate outcome? The only way you can charge God with wrongdoing is to be God yourself.

Christians use the story of Job to explain human suffering yet, in my mind, it actually paints God in an even worse light than the Devil. Satan had to ask God's permission to mess around with Job! And God let it happen. With friends like God, who needs enemies?

Again, so you're saying that God isn't allowed to work out a long-range plan he hasn't divulged to you in advance.

Reading Job, when I was a Christian, gave me the impression that we're just toys in the eyes of God. I was actually quite disturbed when I read Job, even more than I was when I first read Revelation.

Now you're grown up and capable of understanding that there is much more going on than just our little minds and senses can grasp. Do we trust the God who got into our skin and died for us and rose again, or do we not? Are we infallible, that we can stand over God as judges? Should God bow to you?

So, to go back to my question, why doesn't God deal with Satan? Is God actually quite pally with Satan as Job implies? Or is God just not powerful enough to deal with Satan? Or does God just not care about the world he created?

Satan will be spending eternity in horrible suffering. And I think you'd actually fault God for paying him back. Who do you think you are, to know more than God and make yourself his judge? As he asked Job, where were you when he created everything? Yet he stooped down to our level and walked among us. He even played the role of the lowest servant, died the death of the most despised criminal. Think about that.