Any atheist is agnostic. Why? Are they compatible?

[DogmaHunter]

1. Atheism in an atheist says "God does not exist. Period.", but
2. Agnosticism in an atheist says: "Possibly there is God."

Wrong on both accounts.

The base atheist position is "I don't believe that there is a god". ie: "I don't accept the claim that a god exists, as being true". Which is NOT, repeat: NOT, the same as saying that you positively believe that there are NO gods.

An agnostic says that he doesn't know if a god exists or not, and/or that the matter is unknowable.

Which indeed is perfectly compatible with being atheist.

How can a logical human step from "currently there is no globally accepted academic proof for God" into "there is no God"?

Not. Which is why you will actually have quite a hard time finding an atheist who actually makes that claim.

I don't even think that there is a single atheist on this forum who makes that claim.

Would it more logical for atheist to say "I am agnostic, but hope that there is no God"?

Every atheist I know, is an agnostic atheist.
As in: we don't know if there is a god (or not) and we have no reason to believe that there IS a god, so we don't believe that claim.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I guess my question for agnostic atheistism is that why then when I come across those that fall in that category, that they usually readily reject the Christian faith, if they are supposed to be open to the idea that a God exists.

You answered your own question. Sort of.
Consider the bold part. "a" god. That's not a specific god.

Personally, yes, I reject the christian faith and simply claim it to be false.
I do this based on the specific claims that it makes. It doesn't add up and is actually in direct contradiction with the evidence of reality on several occasions.

Imo, the entire foundation of christianity is based on inaccurate claims (the fall, exodus, origins of israelites,...) and therefor by extension the entire religion is false.

Christianity is just one specific version of god and the supernatural.

A version which, imo, is not only not supported by evidence but actually contradicted by evidence.

Is it the stigma that it's a structured faith that turns them away?

No. As said, for me, my rejection is based on the demonstrable falsehoods embedded in the religion itself.

Or is it that they are open not to God, but that there is something higher than us, like more of a mystic/spiritual existence

Nope. I don't exclude the possibility. But I have no reason to accept such claims as true. So I don't.

But even then, it wouldn't matter that your agnostic if you're readily rejecting. Then that's not being open. Its either someone is seeking or skepticizing, it's hard to be that neutral on such topics as it sounds like with agnostic atheism. That's my take. But wanna hear a response cause agnostic atheism, is a pretty new term for me.

I think you are making this a lot bigger then it is.
You need to understand that atheists aren't busy with their atheism like theists are with their theism.

Consider how many times per day you think about or concern yourself with some entity that you don't believe is real. Not many times, I bet.

It's the same for me.
I might concern myself with what people believe, off course (like when on this forum).
But in my daily life, gods and the supernatural are total non-issues for me.

Don't remember who said it, but the statement comes to mind: "Most atheists don't concern themselves with god ideas enough to even realise that they are atheists".

The point is: when you don't believe X exists, then X won't be on your mind. At all.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Any human has a god. Existence is the main property of a thing. So, there are two Gods only: existent for theists, and a-existent for atheists. Therefore you are coming to people, who like their own god, not yours.

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The atheist would have himself as his own god, if he was rejecting the ultimate authority God, because then he would see himself to be the authority over his life.

Sounds like you are stretching word games, just to be able to say that "atheists believe in a god".

Doesn't make any sense, nore does it have any merrit as an argument.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It’s not a matter of how much you know of yourself, it’s a matter of how trustworthy you are.

You don’t examine people out before believing?

Somehow, for some reason, I think you wouldn't be so sceptical nore worrying about "trustworthyness", if @Tinker Grey were saying that he does believe in a god.

 

[salt-n-light]

You answered your own question. Sort of.
Consider the bold part. "a" god. That's not a specific god.

Personally, yes, I reject the christian faith and simply claim it to be false.
I do this based on the specific claims that it makes. It doesn't add up and is actually in direct contradiction with the evidence of reality on several occasions.

Imo, the entire foundation of christianity is based on inaccurate claims (the fall, exodus, origins of israelites,...) and therefor by extension the entire religion is false.

Christianity is just one specific version of god and the supernatural.

A version which, imo, is not only not supported by evidence but actually contradicted by evidence.


No. As said, for me, my rejection is based on the demonstrable falsehoods embedded in the religion itself.


Nope. I don't exclude the possibility. But I have no reason to accept such claims as true. So I don't.


I think you are making this a lot bigger then it is.
You need to understand that atheists aren't busy with their atheism like theists are with their theism.

Consider how many times per day you think about or concern yourself with some entity that you don't believe is real. Not many times, I bet.

It's the same for me.
I might concern myself with what people believe, off course (like when on this forum).
But in my daily life, gods and the supernatural are total non-issues for me.

Don't remember who said it, but the statement comes to mind: "Most atheists don't concern themselves with god ideas enough to even realise that they are atheists".

The point is: when you don't believe X exists, then X won't be on your mind. At all.

Wayyyyyy too many atheists on this site, in media, everywhere to say now that somehow atheist don’t concern theirselves about atheism. Being on a planet that are filled with religions and sects of spirituality. Maybe not you (I don’t even believe that), but when it comes to addressing their own belief they can’t do it without discrediting Christianity or other religion ( although I’ve only heard them say I reject Christianity, but no explanation on all the other ones). It beckons to respond to other beliefs, I have not comes across one yet that have said “ eh I haven’t thought about that,I’m just an atheist” or “ it just fits me, knew from when I was youth there was no god”Without ownership of choice of what to believe, like conscious I don’t want to because of some elaborate reason.I think your post proves that.

If you’re on the forum and posting regularly, it’s hard on my end to believe that you don’t ponder about such things. At all.

I think about God all the time, whatever is in the desires of your heart you will think about. Whatever sparks someone’s interest, people will think about. It may not be an issue, but that doesn’t negate the interest. I may see Buddha, or come across an event, or maybe pops up in my mind, and I think about it maybe read and study on it. Isn’t that how you came to whatever judgement you made about Christianity? By thinking and research?

Example: me addressing something on the news may not affect my day to day life, but it doesn’t prove that it’s void of interest. Doesn’t mean that I don’t think about it. It just mean that Im choosing not to care much. I can also choose to care protest about it. But neither is void of interest. It’s just not void of stance.

But agnostic atheism from my end lacks the ownership of stance. Which makes it such an abstract thing because everyone chooses to believe in something, it’s not a matter of they are not able to or it being unnatural to. And there’s no model of one that is actually open to evidence of a god that it present itself in the agnostic end. It’s just always a limbo “there could be one... but not really thinking about it, not really looking for it, reject all presented arguments of it, and based on that choose not to so atheist,but I’m agnostic...”

So then why are agnostic atheist make the claim that there could be a god?

 

[salt-n-light]

Sounds like you are stretching word games, just to be able to say that "atheists believe in a god".

Doesn't make any sense, nore does it have any merrit as an argument.

Look up what the term god means biblically. Then we can actually talk.

 

[salt-n-light]

Somehow, for some reason, I think you wouldn't be so sceptical nore worrying about "trustworthyness", if @Tinker Grey were saying that he does believe in a god.

No I would still be skeptical. I have that freedom lol!

 

[DogmaHunter]

Wayyyyyy too many atheists on this site, in media, everywhere to say now that somehow atheist don’t concern theirselves about atheism.

In terms of personal god beliefs / unbeliefs. Which is not the same as concerning oneself with religion/theists in a secular society or whatever.

As I said, I can concern myself with what others believe... but not with personal god beliefs. For example, my dad is in the hospital. He had a bad case of elevated calcium levels and his life was in the balance for a week or two.

As I didn't know the first thing about the condition, I worked my way through medial literature to find out all that I could about it. At no point during the 2-week nightmare did I ever consider calling out to any deities or whatever. Nore did it even occur to me to think about it. It was as far of my mind as unicorns are of yours in such a situation.

That's what I mean when I say that I don't concern myself with god-beliefs. It doesn't even occur to me to do so.

If you’re on the forum and posting regularly, it’s hard on my end to believe that you don’t ponder about such things. At all.

Well hopefully I have now cleared up what I actually mean by it.
I don't ponder personal god beliefs - it just doesn't occur to me during those times where your average theist will be thinking about almost nothing else.

But that doesn't mean that I don't concern myself with the beliefs that fellow members of society hold on to.

I am on this site for the latter reason.

I think about God all the time

Sure. The point exactly. In that sense, I don't concern myself with any gods. At any time.

Isn’t that how you came to whatever judgement you made about Christianity? By thinking and research?

Sure. But not as a result of some sort of "personal seeking for something to believe in". Rather just out of interest of why other people believe it. And because I was kinda forced to study it during my latter years in high school, after I transfered to a catholic school.

Sure, it sparked my interest. But my interest was in the psychology of believers, the reasons why people believe on faith. I've been brought up entirely differently. "faith" has never been presented as a good reason to believe something. Au contraire. I've been told to be skeptical. To question everything. To never believe without good reason.

I knew that religion requires faith. I guess that in my head it was some kind of a given that religion is not something that I would ever buy into, precisely for that reason.

I just couldn't. Not without being dishonest and lying to myself. I can't bring myself to believe anything on faith. I just can't. I consider "faith" to be one of the worst possible foundations to believe something. And I've never been presented with a valid rational argument to think otherwise.

It just mean that Im choosing not to care much. I can also choose to care protest about it.

Can you, really? I can't. I can't "force" myself to care about something that I actually don't care about.

But agnostic atheism from my end lacks the ownership of stance

How so? Seems rather easy from my point of view....
The agnostic part: I don't know if there is or isn't a god or gods.
The atheist part: I have no reason to believe god(s) exist, so I don't.

Seems like a perfectly legit stance concerning the claim "a god exists".

Which makes it such an abstract thing because everyone chooses to believe in something,

I'm sorry, but I feel compelled to protest that again.
I don't "choose" my beliefs. I believe whatever convinces me. And what convinces me is a combination of evidence, trust, verifiability and understanding. None of which are "choice"-based either.

Belief for me is not a choice. It is a compulsion when being convinced.

And there’s no model of one that is actually open to evidence of a god that it present itself in the agnostic end. It’s just always a limbo “there could be one... but not really thinking about it, not really looking for it, reject all presented arguments of it, and based on that choose not to so atheist,but I’m agnostic...”

No, that's not at all how it works.
First of all, why should I go out and actively seek for reasons to believe in gods?
Do you go out and actively seek for reason to believe in undetectable dragons?
Off course you don't. One doesn't try and look for reasons to believe in the existance of entities that one does not believe in.

I'm more then open to listen to the arguments of anyone who believes whatever. It just so happens that none of those arguments are convincing to me at all.

It's not my job to convince myself of things that theists want want to see me convinced about. It's your claim, you bring the argument. Burden of proof is on the side of the one making the claim, you know....

And that which is asserted without evidence, can be rejected without evidence. And as far as I am concerned, that is exactly what I am doing concerning religions.

So then why are agnostic atheist make the claim that there could be a god?

Because they are honest.
There could be a god. There could also be a Matrix and an undetectable flying spaghetti monster.

But lacking any valid reasons, arguments, evidence,... to suggest the eixstance of such things... why believe it?

The point exactly.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Look up what the term god means biblically. Then we can actually talk.

Sorry, I'm not interested in definition games where the word "god" can mean just about anything just so people an be able to say that "atheists don't exist because everyone believes in a god".

We all know what is meant by a god and it is disengenious at best to start spinning in this direction. It's unproductive and without any merrit.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't even think that there is a single atheist on this forum who makes that claim.

Actually, I know one though I can't remember his handle.

In the sense that I have no problem saying there are no fairies, I have no problem saying there are no gods. However, conveying the idea that I know I could be wrong, I am properly an agnostic atheist.

 

[salt-n-light]

Sorry, I'm not interested in definition games where the word "god" can mean just about anything just so people an be able to say that "atheists don't exist because everyone believes in a god".

We all know what is meant by a god and it is disengenious at best to start spinning in this direction. It's unproductive and without any merrit.

So basically you’re not interested. Could just say that lol

 

[DogmaHunter]

So basically you’re not interested. Could just say that lol

So now, we are also going to start being dishonest about what people are actually saying?

I said wasn't interested in defintion word games. One very specific definition word game.
I'll repeat: redefining what is generally understood by the word "god", just so you can say that atheists also have a god, is just meaningless.

 

[salt-n-light]

So now, we are also going to start being dishonest about what people are actually saying?

I said wasn't interested in defintion word games. One very specific definition word game.
I'll repeat: redefining what is generally understood by the word "god", just so you can say that atheists also have a god, is just meaningless.

This is Christian forums, the word “god” does not only have the general understanding by most, there are many meanings to it biblically. It’s not only reserve to a divine being.

But you said you’re not interested in playing word definition games, whatever that means, you already said it’s meaningless, so what’s the problem?

 

[Dirk1540]

Wrong on both accounts.

The base atheist position is "I don't believe that there is a god". ie: "I don't accept the claim that a god exists, as being true". Which is NOT, repeat: NOT, the same as saying that you positively believe that there are NO gods.

An agnostic says that he doesn't know if a god exists or not, and/or that the matter is unknowable.

Which indeed is perfectly compatible with being atheist.



Not. Which is why you will actually have quite a hard time finding an atheist who actually makes that claim.

I don't even think that there is a single atheist on this forum who makes that claim.



Every atheist I know, is an agnostic atheist.
As in: we don't know if there is a god (or not) and we have no reason to believe that there IS a god, so we don't believe that claim.

Well the problem is that this also makes every Christian that doesn’t claim 100% certainly an agnostic. As far as 100% knowledge goes, almost everything falls short of 100%, except pretty much our own existence (I think therefore I am). So even the Christians who say this don’t realize the error that they’re making.

Yes a lot of people out there are claiming 100% belief or 100% non-belief in many things, but they are speaking generally, not trying to be epistemologically perfect.

So all of this “No you’re an agnostic atheist not an atheist” is just trying to be epistemologically precise when people are just speaking in common language. If you want to do that fine but then everyone on Earth is an agnostic. You’re conflating epistemological perfection with general classifications. Ok then, everyone in the world is an agnostic.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well the problem is that this also makes every Christian that doesn’t claim 100% certainly an agnostic.

Why is that a problem?

As far as 100% knowledge goes, almost everything falls short of 100%, except pretty much our own existence (I think therefore I am).

(a)gnosticism pertains to knowledge, though. Not to absolute certainty.

So all of this “No you’re an agnostic atheist not an atheist” is just trying to be epistemologically precise when people are just speaking in common language. If you want to do that fine but then everyone on Earth is an agnostic. You’re conflating epistemological perfection with general classifications. Ok then, everyone in the world is an agnostic.

You're conflating mere knowledge with absolute certainty.

 

[Freodin]

Quite a lot of Christians feel the need to portrait unbelievers, especially atheists, as some sort of evil adversaries, as rebels against the authority.

So they do their best to twist and turn what should be very simple into an admission of just that. They want atheists to say: "Yes, I know that there is God JHWH and Jesus. They are real and right, but I hate them and thus deny them in unrighteous rebelling as my father Satan did!"

That atheists just say "I don't believe that what say is the truth, Christian.", for whatever reason the atheist might have... this these Christians just cannot accept. It destroys their narrative, their self-identification as the heroes fighting against evil.

Some of these Christians are so fanatical in this worldview that they frighten me... but most I just pity.