anti-theism

[awitch]

I already know what the Christians think, so I'm directing this question to the atheists and "non-Christians":

What do you make of the anti-theistic movement that seems to be more prevalent these days? Have you seen Bill Maher's "Religulous" movie, or read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", or Christopher Hitchen's "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"? Is there anything the nonChristian theists find disturbing?

(Personally, I like them all, and don't see much to disagree with.)

Do you think it is accurate to say that the pendulum is swinging the other way in response to the recent Evangelical/Fundametnalist/conservative Christian attempts to impose upon American culture? For example, Intelligent Design in public science classrooms, 10 Commandment monuments in courthouses, knowingly breaking the law by endorsing politics in church, Harry Potter book burnings, etc?

 

[Druweid]

What do you make of the anti-theistic movement that seems to be more prevalent these days?

Personally, I haven't seen as much anti-theism going on as I have seen agnosticism.

Have you seen Bill Maher's "Religulous" movie, or read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", or Christopher Hitchen's "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"? Is there anything the nonChristian theists find disturbing?

Unfortunately, life has been very busy over the past year, and I've had no time for movies or books, though I look forward to reading Dawkins. Hopefully, Religulous will be out on DVD soon. I don't find any of this disturbing, I believe all things are subject to question or debate; "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." (T. Jefferson).

Do you think it is accurate to say that the pendulum is swinging the other way in response to the recent Evangelical/Fundametnalist/conservative Christian attempts to impose upon American culture?

I do believe that the US is experiencing a discernible shift in religious beliefs, but this has been going on over a long period of time, and for a multitude of reasons. For my own personal reasons, I'm going to say this would all have started around the late 1980's, but the reasons you state have certainly appeared to be influential.

Regards,
-- Druweid

 

[VoidKommando]

The thing that bothers me the most is that they push it way too much.
Who are they trying to convince?
Athiests? Don't think so...
Christians? Wont work, they'll only clamp on to their belief even more.

 

[awitch]

The thing that bothers me the most is that they push it way too much.
Who are they trying to convince?
Athiests? Don't think so...
Christians? Wont work, they'll only clamp on to their belief even more.

I don't think it's a matter of trying to convince people to abandon religion as it is the political call to arms to atheists, progressive Christians, and minority religions to stand up to the religious right and not allow them to impose religion into secular or religously neutral environments.

The "push" might undermine the efforts.

 

[arunma]

Though you didn't ask for Christian opinions, I'll give mine simply because it may not be what you expect. I would suggest that these atheists are perhaps slightly closer to the kingdom of God than people who practice false religions. In order for a non-Christian to become a believer in Jesus Christ and be saved, he must first discard his false gods and religious practices. Atheists do not need to take this intermediary step. Furthermore, Christians ourselves are atheists with respect to all gods but the God of Israel. While non-Christians reject the true God and cling to false gods (even Jews and Muslims, who worship a perversion of the true God Jesus Christ), atheists at least do not worship false gods.

Now, I am not saying that I am encouraged by these atheistic movements. After all, an atheist is condemned to the same hell as non-Christians. Furthermore, the people who tend to become atheists in America and Europe seem to be nominal Christians and not non-Christians. Nominal Christians too were never in the grace of God to begin with. Nonetheless, the rise of atheism doesn't correspond to a decrease in non-Christian theism, so this is most unfortunate. However, I will maintain that it is better to be an atheist than a non-Christian theist.

 

[Speculative]

I read Hitchens' book and although I may disagree with the ultimate conclusion, I think he makes many valid points.

I like Dawkins also, but I have not yet read "The God Delusion" in its entirety.

 

[PassionFruit]

I already know what the Christians think, so I'm directing this question to the atheists and "non-Christians":

What do you make of the anti-theistic movement that seems to be more prevalent these days? Have you seen Bill Maher's "Religulous" movie, or read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", or Christopher Hitchen's "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"? Is there anything the nonChristian theists find disturbing?

(Personally, I like them all, and don't see much to disagree with.)

Do you think it is accurate to say that the pendulum is swinging the other way in response to the recent Evangelical/Fundametnalist/conservative Christian attempts to impose upon American culture? For example, Intelligent Design in public science classrooms, 10 Commandment monuments in courthouses, knowingly breaking the law by endorsing politics in church, Harry Potter book burnings, etc?

The issue I had with Bill Maher's Religious documentary is he seemed to only focus on Christianity, Judaism and Islam (oh and Scientology) but made no mention of Eastern Religions.

I've never read any of the books you mention above, but I heard with Christopher Hitchen's book, he seemed to make many of the same arguments I've heard agnostics/atheists make in regards to religion.

I don't think it's really accurate to say the pendulum is swinging, because for one Christianity (at least in the US) is still a very dominant religion and most people call themselves Christians. I still get the feeling that I'm seeing backlash because of the supposed moral decline of the US. Like these "Purity Balls" and such.

 

[awitch]

The issue I had with Bill Maher's Religious documentary is he seemed to only focus on Christianity, Judaism and Islam (oh and Scientology) but made no mention of Eastern Religions.

Much of the movie focused on Christianity. I understand he was cautious with the Muslims after the cartoon violence, and he didn't really say much about Judaism except for the one anti-Israel rabbi. The eastern religions are barely understood let alone bother anyone in the west. I'm not aware of them making the same outrageous claims either.

[quoteI don't think it's really accurate to say the pendulum is swinging, because for one Christianity (at least in the US) is still a very dominant religion and most people call themselves Christians. I still get the feeling that I'm seeing backlash because of the supposed moral decline of the US. Like these "Purity Balls" and such. [/quote]

Not so much the abandoning of religion, but the amount of influence religious groups have in the culture wars. For example, intelligent design being exposed and defeated, prominent Christians involved in scandals, the Evangelical ties to the latest miserable presidency, etc. I see the pendulum swinging to an environment where atheists and minority religions can (more) safely speak up without being turned into a devil worshiper...(no offense to devil worshipers)

 

[Isambard]

I disagree with the New Atheist movement in terms of what the problem is (and positions of individual memers), but I sympathize with them as religious favouring and pandering does seem to be up among political circles.

 

[Im_A]

I already know what the Christians think, so I'm directing this question to the atheists and "non-Christians":

What do you make of the anti-theistic movement that seems to be more prevalent these days? Have you seen Bill Maher's "Religulous" movie, or read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", or Christopher Hitchen's "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"? Is there anything the nonChristian theists find disturbing?

(Personally, I like them all, and don't see much to disagree with.)

Do you think it is accurate to say that the pendulum is swinging the other way in response to the recent Evangelical/Fundametnalist/conservative Christian attempts to impose upon American culture? For example, Intelligent Design in public science classrooms, 10 Commandment monuments in courthouses, knowingly breaking the law by endorsing politics in church, Harry Potter book burnings, etc?

i loved Religulous. i really like Dawkins. i like Hitchens too.

my only problem is, i'm worried that they are createing the unability to co-exist with the religious people by saying what they say. now i will say, i do believe they make great and amazing points. my atheism is not built upon the arguments that they make of. i wish people could see what they have to say as more about the social aspects of our lives in the world we live in, instead of how people take it. slandering against religion. but, the approach some go, i just worry that the idea of createing tha ability to co-exist in peace and harmony is just a fictious idea and i believe co-existance is a must in our world in relation to theists coexisting with atheists.

but at the same time, i showed similiar sentiments as they did, when i had a discussion with a friend of mine about the ten commandments and more specifically wiith saying in God we trust in schools. her argument was, it is a part of our nation from the beginning, and i argued that our forefathers, some have been Christian, but some we have well reason to believe they were maybe deist or theist or maybe even atheist and she accepted that because i offered her to show her some stuff about that, that shows, and then she goes to say that regardless of that, it is in our country and if some child or their parent doesn't like it, they just need to deal with and the child can go somewhere else when that is being said.

i flipped out. i said how i honestly felt, that if i had a child that was asked to leave the classroom just because they didn't want to say, "in God we trust" i'd be at the principal's door and in their face to demand that something to be done about this because my child will not be put aside, or discriminated in a nice manner as that.

so i find myself feeling like they do about some things, some things i disagree with. i just hope there's a middle ground we all can reach. it sounds pretty fictious the more and more i think about it, but its still a hope i have.

 

[Secundulus]

Much of the movie focused on Christianity. I understand he was cautious with the Muslims after the cartoon violence,

Of course, Maher is a spineless coward that lacks the courage of his convictions. So he picks the easy target like the poltroon that he is. Why anyone respects him is beyond me.

and he didn't really say much about Judaism except for the one anti-Israel rabbi.

That would be politically incorrect to talk bad about the Jews, so once again, Maher publically demonstrates his abject cowardice.

 

[Secundulus]

If Christians rose up in mass and started slitting the throats of athiests like Maher, would we then get some respect? I imagine that at least people like Maher wouldn't be making these stupid videos that do nothing except try to denigrate Christians.

Of course I am not advocating that, simply pointing out, once again, the cowardice of Maher and those like him.

Excuse me while I go wipe the Maher off the bottom of my shoe.

 

[MichaelNZ]

I remember seeing a thread on Yahoo! Answers about a Sikh girl going to court for the right to wear her kara(steel bangle, one of the 5 symbols of the Sikh faith) at her school, which had a "no jewelry" policy. One atheist there said that the rule should apply to everyone and she shouldn't be excepted from the rule on religious grounds. I thought that it was disgusting - while this person might not believe in any religion, he doesn't have to be insulting to those who do follow a religion. The feeling I got from someone like that is that he thinks that just because he doesn't do religion, then everybody shouldn't do religion.

 

[arunma]

Of course, Maher is a spineless coward that lacks the courage of his convictions. So he picks the easy target like the poltroon that he is. Why anyone respects him is beyond me.

That would be politically incorrect to talk bad about the Jews, so once again, Maher publically demonstrates his abject cowardice.

Agreed completely. Bill Maher whines that some people in America lobby to teach creationism in school, but says curiously little that Christians (and other dissenters) are regularly beheaded in Islamic countries. Even if the political agenda of the American right wing were dishonorable, he would do better to ridicule the greater injustice. Or, if he were objecting to Christianity on intellectual grounds, he would do well to equally attack Judaism, which has equally many teachings about the supernatural. But then he might be labeled as anti-semitic. You are quite right to observe his cowardice.

If Christians rose up in mass and started slitting the throats of athiests like Maher, would we then get some respect? I imagine that at least people like Maher wouldn't be making these stupid videos that do nothing except try to denigrate Christians.

Of course I am not advocating that, simply pointing out, once again, the cowardice of Maher and those like him.

Indeed we ought not to even desire such a thing, since Christ commands us to love our enemies. And it is not contradictory that Christ also tells us of the fate of those enemies who continue in their sin even to death. Perhaps Bill Maher's sin is not yet complete. If he does not repent, then every good deed that a Christian ever did for him, and every prayer that a Christian ever uttered on his behalf, will return to him a thousand times over as mountains of wrath in the eternal fire of hell, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched. I sincerely hope that he stops and thinks about what he is doing, lest he die in his sin, and stand before God's throne with every sin he ever committed crying out for vengeance against him.

And if this is the fate of the man who rejects the true God, I shudder to think of what will happen to the one who takes it a step further and believes in false gods.

 

[PassionFruit]

Bill Maher never said anything about Islam??? Well I beg to differ,

"Islam was extreme to begin with." Bill Maher, because he made comments that Prophet Mohammad was a warrior.

He even said that Islam wasn't a religion of peace, I would think you would agree with him.

So I don't see where you two get off on calling him a coward.

And I hope this doesn't start off as one of the "Christians are persecuted in America."
because that's utter [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].

 

[SiderealExalt]

I think that the idea in general that anti-theism is by default some sort of overly reactionary completely negative thing is rooted in a bit of ignorance. I think religion should be examined with as much criticism as we lay on any other social system.

While I do think some things aren't as effective as they'd like. And I consider Maher's movie's goal more for comedy than documentary, I don't think this means anti-theism is a bad thing. Quite the contrary.

Agreed completely. Bill Maher whines that some people in America lobby to teach creationism in school, but says curiously little that Christians (and other dissenters) are regularly beheaded in Islamic countries.

*Shrugs* I don't consider someone not talking exhaustively about something a mark against them. Notwithstanding that I'd be more worried that PEOPLE are being killed, regardless of religion or lack there if, than specific groups. And I share Maher's "whining" on the creationism. Psuedo sad and non science wrapped in a thinly veiled religious veneer deserve absolutely NO place in any academic institution that values intellectual integrity. Creationism is just plain NOT science in any shape or form.

Am I dissapointed he choice the Borat director to make a hah hah movie instead of a serious criticism movie? Yes. But then again, I'm not suprised, as Maher has more of an entertainment background than a documentary one. I would however like to see some of the documentaries Dawkins has been in that have aired in the U.K. that American networks wont show.

I remember seeing a thread on Yahoo! Answers about a Sikh girl going to court for the right to wear her kara(steel bangle, one of the 5 symbols of the Sikh faith) at her school, which had a "no jewelry" policy. One atheist there said that the rule should apply to everyone and she shouldn't be excepted from the rule on religious grounds. I thought that it was disgusting - while this person might not believe in any religion, he doesn't have to be insulting to those who do follow a religion. The feeling I got from someone like that is that he thinks that just because he doesn't do religion, then everybody shouldn't do religion.

And you jumped from "I want the rule to be applied equally." To "I just don't like your religion." how?

 

[SiderealExalt]

What do you make of the anti-theistic movement that seems to be more prevalent these days?

I don't think it's more prevalent. I just think that being an atheist and/or anti theist is slowly becoming more acceptable in various societies. Though I find in the States it generally goes as, religion isn't important to a lot of social groups, but if you actually mention you are an atheist people give you funny looks.

Have you seen Bill Maher's "Religulous" movie, or read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", or Christopher Hitchen's "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"?

I have not seen the movie yet, but I have read both books and own them. I haven't finished Hitchen's book yet, but I liked it's insight to the marriage of politics and religion in various parts of history. I enjoyed God Delusion more for it's insights into some scientific info than necessarily for the message, since we're talking preaching to the proverbial choir here. Nothing he said sounded surprising to me, just sober. I commend the man for speaking things I've wanted to say out loud many times.

s there anything the nonChristian theists find disturbing?

Not really. Though that group of atheists wanting to rename atheists brights I found amusingly annoying. What am I, a light bulb?

I think Western Society is very very VERY slowly outmoding religion. I think it is a VERY slow process, the real impacts of which we wont see in our lifetime.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Although I agree with Dawkins, Hitchens et al. when it comes to philosophy, theology and criticism thereof, I fear that their aggressiveness ultimately could be detrimental to the atheist movement by alienating the moderates and the fencesitters, while reinforcing the fundamentalists' prejudices and bias.

 

[awitch]

That would be politically incorrect to talk bad about the Jews, so once again, Maher publically demonstrates his abject cowardice.

As I mentioned with the eastern religions, the Jews don't really go out of their way to bother anyone (at least here in the US). They seem more than happy to keep their religion to themselves, so there is not much reason to complain about them.

 

[awitch]

If Christians rose up in mass and started slitting the throats of athiests like Maher, would we then get some respect? I imagine that at least people like Maher wouldn't be making these stupid videos that do nothing except try to denigrate Christians.

Of course I am not advocating that, simply pointing out, once again, the cowardice of Maher and those like him.

Excuse me while I go wipe the Maher off the bottom of my shoe.

Are you not secure enough in your faith that a little criticism and alternate point of view bother you that much? Does the truth hurt?