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Answers to homosexuals on translation

Inkfingers

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Also, "arsenokoites" was first used in the writings of Paul, and has little context outside that it is in a list of sins, to give us, now, a meaning.

That's not strictly true.

Yes Paul is the only one to use the two words arseno and koites linked together in one word, but they first appear in the LXX in Leviticus 18:22.

The famous "thou shall not lie with a man as with a woman", in the Greek, is "καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν". If you are wondering how that applies...."ἄρσενος" is arseno and "κοίτην" is koites. Paul was referencing the Septuagint when he spoke on homosexuality...
 
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Fenny the Fox

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That's not strictly true.

Yes Paul is the only one to use the two words arseno and koites linked together in one word, but they first appear in the LXX in Leviticus 18:22.

The famous "thou shall not lie with a man as with a woman", in the Greek, is "καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν". If you are wondering how that applies...."ἄρσενος" is arseno and "κοίτην" is koites. Paul was referencing the Septuagint when he spoke on homosexuality...

That's the thing though. How can we know (with any certainty) that he was referring to the Septuagint by using two common words linked together. It isn't as though the words were rare or odd in usage to begin with, but linked together? Since the Septuagint was not originally written in Greek and the words' usage was merely a result of common language when translated into Greek, can we really make that comparison?

And, why do that when he easily could have been more direct (as Paul generally was) and use existing, known compounds instead?
 
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Interplanner

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Fenny,
what were those common terms from the LXX period?
where do you get the idea that the LXX was not in Greek at first? That is completely unclear. If you meant to say they were translating from Hebrew (which they were) then just say that. They were trying to provide a way for the Scripture to be read by those Hellenics who ruled the area.

Because of the Leviticus source, it is not at all unclear.
 
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Inkfingers

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That's the thing though. How can we know (with any certainty) that he was referring to the Septuagint by using two common words linked together.

Are you actually being serious there? He is patently referencing LXX by using the same Greek words that the LXX uses to describe the same matters.

All it takes is an honest willingness to see that, rather than ideological blinkers.
 
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Fenny the Fox

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All it takes is an honest willingness to see that, rather than ideological blinkers.
And a refusal to see regardless of other possibilities is just as blinding.

(Note I haven't once said what I actually believe or don't, because that is frankly not my point. I am merely pointing out that things are not necessarily straight forward.)
 
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katautumn

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I have essays by CARM and there is nothing lousy about it.

Matt Slick's own daughter, Rachael, became an atheist partly due to her father's inability to sufficiently answer her theological questions as a teenager.
 
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Paul is speaking to Roman Followers of GOD by letter: "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." [Romans 1:7] and "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."[Romans 1:8]

...and that he [Paul] was not ashamed of the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST and its saving power [Romans 1:16] and was coming there [to Rome in chains, after having been delayed, imprisoned] to preach it [Romans 1:15] and that "...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Romans 1:18. This says nothing of merely pagan temple worship or prostitution, but rather all ungodliness and unighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness and that "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them." Romans 1:19, yea even "...his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" [Romans 1:20]...and those who rejected GOD, and "...changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." [Romans 1:21], it was these that "... God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:" [Romans 1:24] and these very same "...changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator..." [Romans 1:25].
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Romans 1:26
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Romans 1:27
"uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves",

"leaving the natural use" [leaving that which was naturally built in]

"vile affections", [shameful, dishonourable, disgraceful, base lusts]

"against nature", [in opposition to natural inclination]

"burned in their lust toward one another", ["set on fire" in their "orexis": "cravings/appetites/desires", just as Sodom, for Sodom means "burning" and it was burned by fire for the lusts burning in their hearts and in the actions/deeds they committed, women with women, men with men, etc...]

"men with men", [men lusted/craved after men]

"working that which is unseemly" [doing/committing that which was shameful]...

"...as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" [Romans 1:28]

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness..."[Romans 1:29]

"a reprobate mind" [rejected],

"do those things which are not convenient" [not doing the right things],

"filled with unrighteousness" [filled with lawbreaking, violations, transgressions],

"fornication" [all manner of vile sexual behavior, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, adultery, being also associated in sexual orgiastic acts associated with idolatry, etc],

"wickedness" [depravity, evil desires, inquitous],

"covetousness" [coveting, greedy, evil/wicked desires]...

Some have intimated that the word "Malakoi" does not mean "homosexual ... yet...

We are looking at the words and context of Romans 1 first before we consider Corinthians/Timothy:

"Wickedness" [vs.29]ponēria: "1) depravity, iniquity, wickedness; 2) malice; 3) evil purposes and desires"[Strong's Concordance]

"fornication" [vs.29]"porneia": "1) illicit sexual intercourse; a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.; b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 ; c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12; 2) metaph. the worship of idols; a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols" [Strong's Concordance]

"dishonour" [vs.24]"atimazō": "1) to dishonour, insult, treat with contempt; a) whether in word, deed or thought"[Strong's Concordance] [treating the body with contempt, abusing and dishonouring it]

"uncleanness" [vs.24]"akatharsia" : "1) uncleanness; a) physical; b) in a moral sense: the impurity of lustful, luxurious, profligate living; 1) of impure motives"[Strong's Concordance]

Looking at the other two verses, 1 Corinthians and Timothy, Paul and malakos and arsenokoites (Pl. arsenokoitai)

Some reference the Book of Ezekiel 16:48-49 and in that there is no reference to sex being a part of their sin ...", yet...

Having referenced Ezekiel 16:48-49, we should also see vs 50 [more context]:
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good]. Ezekiel 16:50
"haughty" [pride, arrogant, lifted up]

"and" [in addition to, also, as well as]

"committed abonimation before me" ["abomination" "tow`ebah" : "1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable; a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages); b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)" [Strong's Concordance]] It is the very same word used in Leviticus 18:22,26-27,29-30, 20:13
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. Leviticus 18:22

22kai meta arsenos ou koimhqhsh koithn gunaikos bdelugma gar estin [Leviticus 18:22 LXX; http://spindleworks.com/septuagint/Leviticus.htm]

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. Leviticus 20:13

13kai os an koimhqh meta arsenos koithn gunaikos bdelugma epoihsan amfoteroi qanatousqwsan enocoi eisin [Leviticus 20:13 LXX; http://spindleworks.com/septuagint/Leviticus.htm]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Corinthians 6:19

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1 Timothy 1:10

[arsenokoitēs, now compare to the Greek above in the LXX, in Leviticus 18:22, 30:13, "1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual" [Strong's Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, ]]
arsenos : "ar5e (n.) "buttocks," Old English ærs "tail, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]," from Proto-Germanic *arsoz (cognates: Old Saxon, Old High German, Old Norse ars, Middle Dutch ærs, German Arsch "buttock"), from PIE root *ors- "buttock, backside" (cognates: Greek orros "tail, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], base of the spine," Hittite arrash, Armenian or "buttock," Old Irish err "tail"). Middle English had ar5e-winning "money obtained by prostitution" (late 14c.)."- Online Etymology Dictionary[

koithn
: "κοίτη, -ης, ἡ bed (n.) [see coitus]" - Wiki Greek-English Lexicon - ????? - bed (n.) "coitus (n.)
"copulation," 1713, scientific Latin, from Latin coitus "a meeting together; sexual union," past participle of coire, from com- "together" (see co-) + ire "come, go," (see ion). In Middle English as coite (early 15c.). Used in English in general senses of "meeting, uniting," and also of magnetic force, planetary conjunction, etc., before sexual sense came to predominate." - Online Etymology Dictionary

God said do not commit "arsenos koithn", yet the wicked of Sodom said in effect, "...but we do not have to listen to you God".

God said do not commit "arsenos koithn" or you will be destroyed, yet the wicked of Sodom said in effect, "...but who are you to tell us what to do, our bodies are our own?"

God said do not commit "arsenos koithn" or your burning lusts will come to ashes by the fire to fall, yet the wicked of Sodom said in effect, "...but fire has never fallen as you say will, and we will continue to do as we please."

Thus the Sodomites, were those of the "but" "sects" of the wicked people...

Paul uses the very words in Leviticus and combines them and uses it in a very specific list in each case in the NT.. do not seek to twist Paul, just as Peter warned that many seeking to justify themselves would do [2 Peter 3:16].

Homosexuality is wrong according the WORD of GOD, and anyone saying it is not will not save those who try to "magick" it away through philisophical mummeries, it will not work as an excuse "in that day", so please do not believe their lies, but rather believe that GOD loves you and has something far better in store for you, and know that those advocating the lie do not care about you, they only care about preserving their selfish ways, their selfishness.

"Sodom and Gomorrah" were destroyed and they were the type of that Judgment which is to come, yet God desires to save! Yet, know this...
But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: Genesis 19:4

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. Genesis 19:5
"know" yada` "to come to intimately know, personally know, sexually know [reveal oneself, know by experience]" like Adam knew his Wife and bare a son, Cain and his wife; Genesis 4:1,17 or see Genesis 19:8, 24:16, "not known a man", etc.]
And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Genesis 19:7
"wickedly" ra`a` "to be evil, wicked, bad, to cause harm, injury, break"[Strong's Concordance]
And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. Genesis 19:15
"iniquity" `avon "1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity; a) iniquity; b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition); c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity"[Strong's Concordance, see also Gesenius's Lexicon, "perversity, depravity"]

Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah had many faults as Ezekiel 16:48-49 shows, but continue to where it says in vs 50 also on top of those things, they had also haughtiness and committed abomination... it was that very pride, that very stubborness to not hear the WORD of GOD on such matters as this which allowed them to think they could do the things they were doing, their lusts drove them to depravity and perverse things, seeking after flesh they should not know, men with men, etc... they did not escape.

GOD HIMSELF came down, "...Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" Genesis 18:20

It is easy to be in a "comfortable relationship" with GOD when you are fulfilling your own lusts, but you are only deceiving your own self [I know...], for GOD does not approve of it, and HE does not smile down upon it, rather HIS heart is broken for you...
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. Proverbs 28:9
Look at the Ten Commandments again...that is HIS love for you.

To those in this lifestyle, someone who truly loves you will tell you the Truth. "thy LAW is Truth", "all thy Commandments are Truth", "thy word is Truth", "JESUS is the Truth", etc...sanctify them through they Truth.

JESUS CHRIST is knocking on the door of your heart...do you not hear HIM knocking on that door? run to answer HIM and let HIM in... if you hear nothing, ...silence... cry out unto HIM immediately for salvation....before HE walks away possibly forever... do not believe the lie that one may choose to live a homosexual lifestyle and still enter into the Kingdom, for Paul says you must be changed, "such were some of you"... , choose, choose everlasting life and CHRIST JESUS...

A gift unto you, for healing - [Link]
 
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