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Answering any questions on Evolution

NailsII

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When you say you are an atheists does that also mean you deny that the bible is dead right in Genesis?


It is clear that the Universe DID have a beginning, 13.5 billion years ago.
(Gen 1:1)
But there was no 'word'.

There were seven long Cosmic "days" since that Big Bang, which we call the seven cosmic/geological Eras.

A Cosmic Dark Age did precede that advent of let there be light to flood the cosmos.
(Gen 1:3-5)
But there is no evidence to suggest that plants grew and flowered on this planet before the sun was 'created', and plenty of evidence to suggest that the sun began nuclear fusion before the earth was fully formed - and indeed it was still cooling, and awaiting a planetary collision (or not).

There was one ocean, once, where all the waters had been collected together.
(Gen 1:9)

Pangea/Rodinia did actually confirm that the dry land appeared surrounded totally by water.
(Gen 1:10)
Can't argue much with that one.

The Plant kingdom did establish itself before the Animal kingdom.
(Gen 1:11)
but flowering plants did not come before animals or sunlight....

Man WAS the last step in the evolution of Dominant Life on earth.
(Gen 1:27)
Wrong.
We are not the last step of evolution, and humans are not really the dominant force of life on this planet.
Sure we can dominate the airways, skyline and now venture outside of our own atmosphere, but we are dominated by micro-organisms.
If HIV had evolved in humans just a few decades earlier, our population could well be in real trouble.
It would only take one strain of avian influenza to dent our dominance, as Spanish flu did around 100 years ago....

Bologna -- DNA can prove Joe is Bob's son, thus proving Bob had a son.
Actually, and this is a tad pedantic, the proof of ancestory by DNA analysis is just a statistical proof which suggests that the similarities in their DNA are too close to have been formed randomly.
There could always be the remotely outlandish proposition that two people have near identical DNA yet are not closely related (in a few generations that is) - there is always the outside chance (usually measured in chances per million, and multiples thereof) that random chance plays a pivotal role.

The chances are so remote that a court of law will accept this is fact, but it is a remote possibility.....
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually, and this is a tad pedantic, the proof of ancestory by DNA analysis is just a statistical proof which suggests that the similarities in their DNA are too close to have been formed randomly.
True, but when I see someone demanding proof now, I just assume he's talking about forensics; i.e. evidence that is strong enough to hold up in court.

After all, no true scientist would use the p-word, would he?
 
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JanetReed

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True, but when I see someone demanding proof now, I just assume he's talking about forensics; i.e. evidence that is strong enough to hold up in court.
I agree no one should ask a religious person for proof because there is no proof and we can not produce evidence that what we believe is true, we just believe that it is, we have faith.
It might be illogical to believe something without evidence but if religion was logical everyone would be religious.
 
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AV1611VET

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It might be illogical to believe something without evidence...
Want something to facepalm?

I define 'faith' as 'believing something, even when science says otherwise.'
... but if religion was logical everyone would be religious.
Religion is logical, theo-logical; and everyone is religious, they just don't know it.
 
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CabVet

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I define 'faith' as 'believing something, even when science says otherwise.'

That is not something to facepalm, and is probably pretty close to my definition of faith as well. There are two problems that come with that though:

1) "Faith" depends on personal and spiritual experiences. Your faith convictions are exactly the same as those that a Muslim or a Jewish person have. Yet, only one of you can be "right".

2) Every single religion (based on "faith") thinks they are "right" and want to force the others to "see the light".

No, I am not religious.
 
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AV1611VET

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1) "Faith" depends on personal and spiritual experiences. Your faith convictions are exactly the same as those that a Muslim or a Jewish person have. Yet, only one of you can be "right".
If I didn't know you better, I would think you said that just to get under my skin.

Anyone whose Christian faith depends on 'personal and spiritual experiences,' and not the Bible, is ... well ... I can think of one denomination and one movement that do, but I'm not going to shoot my brothers & sisters in Christ in the foot, just to make a point with you.

As the song goes:

My faith is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

On Christ, the Solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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Want something to facepalm?

I define 'faith' as 'believing something, even when science says otherwise.'

Religion is logical, theo-logical; and everyone is religious, they just don't know it.
IMO, faith is an excuse to believe in things you hope to be true.
 
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AV1611VET

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bjt2024

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Apologies, about the slow reply I have been in London for a few days so I have been without internet.

"It is clear that the Universe DID have a beginning, 13.5 billion years ago.
(Gen 1:1)"

It is clear to anyone that the universe either had a beginning or has been around for an infinite length of time without having to look at anything in depth. But Genesis 1:1 says that " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The Earth was formed approximately 4.54 billion years ago, which leaves a gap of around 9 billion years in which I presume your god did nothing?. The bible does not just say that the universe began; if it did then I would say it was correct. It says that a god was needed to create it, this I refute.

“There were seven long Cosmic "days" since that Big Bang, which we call the seven cosmic/geological Eras.

"A Cosmic Dark Age did precede that advent of let there be light to flood the cosmos.( Gen 1:3-5)”

There are infact 14 geological eras of the Earth, Cryptic, Basin Groups, Nectarian, Early Imbrian, Eoarchean, Paleoarchean, Masoarchean, Neoarchean, Paleoproterozoic, Mesoproterozoic, Neoproterozoic, Paleozoic, Mesozoic, Cenozoic
The cosmic dark age occurred when photons were coupled up with protons and electrons and as a result they were not producing light as photons do now. When the photons decoupled from the protons and electrons the universe became transparent. The individuals who wrote the bible did not have knowledge of the dark age and photons, but they did know of light and how it gave them the ability to see. They needed to attribute the existence of light to something, and that something was a god.

"There was one ocean, once, where all the waters had been collected together. (Gen 1:9)"

This is true on multiple accounts; the Earth at many times has had 1 global ocean. There is a cycle of the formation and breaking up of super continents. Every time there is the formation of a supercontinent there is a global ocean. It is easy for the writers of the bible to imagine they live on a solid platform of land surrounded by ocean. The bible was written well before accurate cartography, mass exploration.

“Pangea/Rodinia did actually confirm that the dry land appeared surrounded totally by water.
(Gen 1:10)”

Look above, I may add that Pangaea was not the first supercontinent. It is believed that Vaalbara was. None of these points prove the existence of a god.

The Plant kingdom did establish itself before the Animal kingdom. (Gen 1:11)"

“And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.”
This quote from Gen 1:11 is talking about land plants. Aquatic animals actually evolved before the advent of land plants. Aquatic plants evolved before the advent of the animal kingdom though. So this translation of the bible is factually incorrect. The bible has nothing to say about the Prokaryotic forms of life, did god not create these or was it just that the writers did not know they existed so they didn’t included them?

"Man WAS the last step in the evolution of Dominant Life on earth. (Gen 1:27)"

What exactly is dominant life? I would say that Mycobacterium tuberculosis is pretty dominant over humans as it can eliminate humans with ease. I believe that bacteria are far superior to other forms of life, they sustain all life. New species of bacteria are constantly evolving in order to survive to changing conditions.

Summary

Just because the bible is right in some aspects does not mean that I have to be a Christian or a hypocrite. Just because the bible is right in some aspects does not give conclusive proof of a god. I will finish by making this last point -->


"When you say you are an atheist does that also mean you deny that the bible is dead right in Joshua?"

There is a city called Jerusalem today in modern times.
Joshua 12:10

Yes there is, but this does not have anything to do with religion.
 
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CabVet

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Anyone whose Christian faith depends on 'personal and spiritual experiences,' and not the Bible, is ... well ... I can think of one denomination and one movement that do, but I'm not going to shoot my brothers & sisters in Christ in the foot, just to make a point with you.
.

There is no better example of a "personal and spiritual experience" than reading the Bible. No two people interpret it equally, God "speaks" to people differently.
 
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Naraoia

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Apologies, about the slow reply I have been in London for a few days so I have been without internet.
You managed to make London sound like some technologically challenged backwater ^_^

This is true on multiple accounts; the Earth at many times has had 1 global ocean.
It kind of still does.

The bible has nothing to say about the Prokaryotic forms of life, did god not create these or was it just that the writers did not know they existed so they didn’t included them?
Oh, cupid thinks bacteria are plants. I think we should ask him if archaea are plants, too. Kind of curious whether he'll even acknowledge their existence. His biology tends to be rather out of date.
 
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bjt2024

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You managed to make London sound like some technologically challenged backwater ^_^

It kind of still does.

Oh, cupid thinks bacteria are plants. I think we should ask him if archaea are plants, too. Kind of curious whether he'll even acknowledge their existence. His biology tends to be rather out of date.
Haha, I was staying in hotels where I had to pay for internet at stupid prices, so I had to go cold for a few days :')

I agree with the point on the ocean, yes we still have one large body of water minus lakes and inland seas.

Does he actually think that bacteria are a form of plant life? Hearing things like this really troubles me.
 
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Naraoia

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Does he actually think that bacteria are a form of plant life?
Let's just say he likes to take his biology from centuries past. And I don't mean the 1990s.

Hearing things like this really troubles me.
This is a troubling place ;)
 
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Zaius137

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Hi,

I'm an atheist and a genetic/microbiological scientist and because this is a Christian forum I've opened this thread so anyone who wishes to know more about Evolution or my beliefs or why I hold them can ask me questions accordingly.

I would however like a respectful debate, but feel free to counteract anything I say if you disagree. I will try my hardest to remain respectful. Thanks :)

OK people, ask away.

A question I have always wanted to ask of an evolutionist.

What is the molecular mechanism for evolution?
 
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bjt2024

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A question I have always wanted to ask of an evolutionist.

What is the molecular mechanism for evolution?
There is not a special molecular mechanism for evolution. The molecular mechanisms for life and therefore reproduction are the only ones needed for evolution to happen.
 
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Zaius137

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There is not a special molecular mechanism for evolution. The molecular mechanisms for life and therefore reproduction are the only ones needed for evolution to happen.

Then what is your comment on the following?

Researchers at the University of Chicago have discovered the first molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change in response to the environment. The mechanism works by allowing multiple small genetic variations to accumulate and then expose themselves when that organism is under environmental stress.

First molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change - The University of Chicago Medicine

Would you place evolution above a scientific mechanism? Sounds much like a religion.
 
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bjt2024

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Then what is your comment on the following?

Researchers at the University of Chicago have discovered the first molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change in response to the environment. The mechanism works by allowing multiple small genetic variations to accumulate and then expose themselves when that organism is under environmental stress.


Would you place evolution above a scientific mechanism? Sounds much like a religion.
I think there is a confusion between evolution and survival of an individual. This article discusses the protein Hsp 90, a heat-shock protein which is produced in high concentrations when a cell is subjected to external stresses such as an extreme change in environment. Hsp 90 helps in the correct folding of proteins. It is said here, when Hsp 90 is downregulated there is more chance that a protein is folded uncorrectly. There is a small chance that one of these mis-folded proteins may perform another function which could aid towards the survival of an organism.

I do continue to persist however that evolution is the process by which, organisms more suited to survival in their environment are more likely to survive and therefore reproduce and pass on their desirable characterisitics.

I was not aware of this mechanism, but after reading the evidence I believe that it is less involved in the survival of an organism than the pre-determined genetics such as height, ability to hear, resistance to extreme cold for example.

Religion - "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods"

No, I do not think this is a religion at all. Evolution is a scietific mechanism, I just believe that the molecular components you have illustrated have less of an impact.
 
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sfs

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Then what is your comment on the following?

Researchers at the University of Chicago have discovered the first molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change in response to the environment. The mechanism works by allowing multiple small genetic variations to accumulate and then expose themselves when that organism is under environmental stress.

First molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change - The University of Chicago Medicine
You asked for the molecular mechanism for evolution. There is no such single mechanism; there are many mechanisms involved, including really all molecular processes involved in life. This is one not terribly important but quite interesting mechanism. It's more widespread than indicated in the linked article, but hardly a major driver of evolution.

Would you place evolution above a scientific mechanism?
Would you eat plaid cheese on Tuesdays? Or, more succinctly, huh?
 
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Guy1

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Then what is your comment on the following?

Researchers at the University of Chicago have discovered the first molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change in response to the environment. The mechanism works by allowing multiple small genetic variations to accumulate and then expose themselves when that organism is under environmental stress.

First molecular mechanism for promoting evolutionary change - The University of Chicago Medicine[/url]

Would you place evolution above a scientific mechanism? Sounds much like a religion.

Was that last bit a deliberate non-sequitur? From what I see, they've found a protein that essentially does cleanup work during DNA replication. When this protein is inhibited in some way, aberrations pop up more frequently.

You're not getting away from me that easily.
 
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