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Answer to Gabriel

Xeno.of.athens

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The problem I see in that analogy which I've heard often, is that we shouldn't ask others to go to our Father in prayer instead of us doing so ourselves. Also to me there's nothing more excellent than communing directly with our Father in prayer as I know David did in the Psalms.
It isn't a request for them to pray for us instead of praying ourselves, it is a request for them to pray with us, to join their prayers with ours, and so with God's help, to be two or more in agreement in their petition to God, which as the scriptures teach is a most potent way to pray.
 
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Servus

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It isn't a request for them to pray for us instead of praying ourselves, it is a request for them to pray with us, to join their prayers with ours, and so with God's help, to be two or more in agreement in their petition to God, which as the scriptures teach is a most potent way to pray.
So do you yourself usually pray directly to our Father? I don't mean reciting the our Father Lord's prayer, but rather praying directly to our Father the way David did in the Psalms?
 
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I do.

I do that too.

My words are less poetic but yes I appeal to YHWH as David did.
Like myself, most non-Catholic Christians don't know much beyond Catholics praying "hail Mary full of grace" while holding a rosary. But then again I find that I'm contradicting myself because I've watched Catholic services and I've heard how the priests pray. And actually when watching entire services I don't recall anything that seemed wrong or alien about it. I've attended mass a few times in the past as well. And while I don't recall it clearly, I know I didn't walk out of it thinking "that was weird". The only thing that threw me off some during one mass is that it was very liturgical, so it was simply a matter of fumbling my way through it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Like myself, most non-Catholic Christians don't know much beyond Catholics praying "hail Mary full of grace" while holding a rosary. But then again I find that I'm contradicting myself because I've watched Catholic services and I've heard how the priests pray. And actually when watching entire services I don't recall anything that seemed wrong or alien about it. I've attended mass a few times in the past as well. And while I don't recall it clearly, I know I didn't walk out of it thinking "that was weird". The only thing that threw me off some during one mass is that it was very liturgical, so it was simply a matter of fumbling my way through it.
Yes indeed, Catholic Church masses are liturgical, and a high mass, one that includes all the parts and is held on a Sunday or other important feast day, is particularly liturgical; many a stranger would be a little surprised by the standing and sitting and kneeling as well as the sign of the cross and the sung parts in the liturgy, but none of it is like to be so surprising as to offend.

The prayers said by the priest are, in essence, the sort of prayer an Anglican priest might say in their liturgy, and the Eucharistic Prayer, which is the most important from a liturgical perspective, is essentially a recital of the gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ. Here's an example, from today's mass.


THE EUCHARISTIC PRAYER​
Extending his hands, the Priest says:​
The Lord be with you.​
The people reply:​
And with your spirit.​
The Priest, raising his hands, continues:​
Lift up your hearts.​
The people:​
We lift them up to the Lord.​
The Priest, with hands extended, adds:​
Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.​
The people:​
It is right and just.​
The Priest continues with the Preface.​
Preface​
The renewal of all things in Christ​
It is truly right and just, our duty and our salvation,​
always and everywhere to give you thanks,​
Lord, holy Father, almighty and eternal God,​
through Christ our Lord.​
In him you have been pleased to renew all things,​
giving us all a share in his fullness.​
For though he was in the form of God, he emptied himself​
and by the blood of his Cross brought peace to all creation.​
Therefore he has been exalted above all things,​
and to all who obey him,​
has become the source of eternal salvation.​
And so, with Angels and Archangels,​
with Thrones and Dominions,​
and with all the hosts and Powers of heaven,​
we sing the hymn of your glory,​
as without end we acclaim:​
The Priest concludes the Preface with the people singing or saying aloud:​
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts.​
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.​
Hosanna in the highest.​
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.​
Hosanna in the highest.​
After this the congregation kneels for the remainder of the Eucharistic Prayer.​
Eucharistic Prayer I: "The Roman Canon"​
The Priest alone recites:​
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,​
we make humble prayer and petition​
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:​
that you accept​
and bless ✠ these gifts, these offerings,​
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,​
which we offer you firstly​
for your holy catholic Church.​
Be pleased to grant her peace,​
to guard, unite and govern her​
throughout the whole world,​
together with your servant N. our Pope​
and N. our Bishop,​
and all those who, holding to the truth,​
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.​
Remember, Lord, your servants (N. and N.)​
and all gathered here,​
whose faith and devotion are known to you.​
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise​
or they offer it for themselves​
and all who are dear to them:​
for the redemption of their souls,​
in hope of health and well-being,​
and paying their homage to you,​
the eternal God, living and true.​
In communion with those whose memory we venerate,​
especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,​
Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,​
and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,​
your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,​
Peter and Paul, Andrew,​
(James, John,​
Thomas, James, Philip,​
Bartholomew, Matthew,​
Simon and Jude;​
Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus,​
Cornelius, Cyprian,​
Lawrence, Chrysogonus,​
John and Paul,​
Cosmas and Damian)​
and all your Saints;​
we ask that through their merits and prayers,​
in all things we may be defended​
by your protecting help.​
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)​
Therefore, Lord, we pray:​
graciously accept this oblation of our service,​
that of your whole family;​
order our days in your peace,​
and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation​
and counted among the flock of those you have chosen.​
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)​
Be pleased, O God, we pray,​
to bless, acknowledge,​
and approve this offering in every respect;​
make it spiritual and acceptable,​
so that it may become for us​
the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son,​
our Lord Jesus Christ.​
On the day before he was to suffer,​
he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,​
and with eyes raised to heaven​
to you, O God, his almighty Father,​
giving you thanks, he said the blessing,​
broke the bread​
and gave it to his disciples, saying:​
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,​
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,​
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.​
In a similar way, when supper was ended,​
he took this precious chalice​
in his holy and venerable hands,​
and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing​
and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:​
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,​
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,​
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,​
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY​
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.​
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.​
After the words of Consecration the priest says:​
The mystery of faith.​
The people continue, acclaiming:​
Either:​
We proclaim your Death, O Lord,​
and profess your Resurrection​
until you come again.​
Or:​
When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup,​
we proclaim your Death, O Lord,​
until you come again.​
Or:​
Save us, Saviour of the world,​
for by your Cross and Resurrection​
you have set us free.​
Therefore, O Lord,​
as we celebrate the memorial of the blessed Passion,​
the Resurrection from the dead,​
and the glorious Ascension into heaven​
of Christ, your Son, our Lord,​
we, your servants and your holy people,​
offer to your glorious majesty​
from the gifts that you have given us,​
this pure victim,​
this holy victim,​
this spotless victim,​
the holy Bread of eternal life​
and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.​
Be pleased to look upon these offerings​
with a serene and kindly countenance,​
and to accept them,​
as once you were pleased to accept​
the gifts of your servant Abel the just,​
the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,​
and the offering of your high priest Melchizedek,​
a holy sacrifice, a spotless victim.​
In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God:​
command that these gifts be borne​
by the hands of your holy Angel​
to your altar on high​
in the sight of your divine majesty,​
so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar​
receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son,​
may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.​
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)​
Commemoration of the Dead​
Remember also, Lord, your servants N. and N.,​
who have gone before us with the sign of faith​
and rest in the sleep of peace.​
Grant them, O Lord, we pray,​
and all who sleep in Christ,​
a place of refreshment, light and peace.​
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)​
To us, also, your servants, who, though sinners,​
hope in your abundant mercies,​
graciously grant some share​
and fellowship with your holy Apostles and Martyrs:​
with John the Baptist, Stephen,​
Matthias, Barnabas,​
(Ignatius, Alexander,​
Marcellinus, Peter,​
Felicity, Perpetua,​
Agatha, Lucy,​
Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia)​
and all your Saints;​
admit us, we beseech you,​
into their company,​
not weighing our merits,​
but granting us your pardon,​
through Christ our Lord.​
Through whom​
you continue to make all these good things, O Lord;​
you sanctify them, fill them with life,​
bless them, and bestow them upon us.​
At the conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer the Priest takes the chalice and the paten with the host and, raising both, he alone says:​
Through him, and with him, and in him,​
O God, almighty Father,​
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,​
all glory and honour is yours,​
for ever and ever.​
Amen.​
 
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Fireinfolding

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Your post omits the story of Gabriel's visit to Mary, Mary's visit to Elizabeth, her presence at the wedding in Cana, her and Joseph's care for Jesus as a child, Mary's presence at the crucifixion, and numerous other places in the gospels.

Saying that "There's really not too much at all" does not omit those things its being inclusive of those things which fall under the "not much". After Christ ascended there is nothing at all but her name mentioned in the upper room, thats it.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Yes, the latter - from the Apocalypse of saint John the theologian - is inspired scripture while the former - from the odes of Solomon - is not inspired scripture but a document a little like Flavius Josephus' books. Is there a difficulty in having sources both in the scriptures and outside of them? It is not difficulty for me.


So this woman is Mary who had no pain in childbirth (but who is shown to be in pain to be delivered below)

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Who is (a few verses down) the same woman who flees into the wilderness

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

How's that work?
 
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It isn't a request for them to pray for us instead of praying ourselves, it is a request for them to pray with us, to join their prayers with ours, and so with God's help, to be two or more in agreement in their petition to God, which as the scriptures teach is a most potent way to pray.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Why would Jesus add "on earth"?

Jesus said to them that if just two of you agree ON EARTH it shall be done for them by His Father which is in heaven.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Yep, that is likely true, and it is an excellent way. Yet, I imagine when you are in need you may ask a friend for his/her prayers and that is excellent too. For me, for Catholics in general, Blessed Mary is a dear friend, as are the saints, and the Holy Angels who serve God for our benefit. This is an excellent way.


To be a friend of Christ is this

John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

And in that she is encouraging them in becoming friends of Christ

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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How's that work?
It works well, the odes of Solomon are not inspired scripture but are useful for information about what Israel as a people were taught or what some of them were taught and that is historical value, but Revelation is inspired scripture and the point of that passage being mentioned is to point out that Mary is mentioned in post resurrection new testament scripture.
 
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It works well, the odes of Solomon are not inspired scripture but are useful for information about what Israel as a people were taught or what some of them were taught and that his historical value, but Revelation is inspired scripture and the point of that passage being mentioned is to point out that Mary is mentioned in post resurrection new testament scripture.

My question is how does that work, that this is Mary (queen of heaven) at all.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Who is (a few verses down) the same woman who flees into the wilderness

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The one with the moon under her feet flees into the wilderness
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Why would Jesus add "on earth"?

Jesus said to them that if just two of you agree ON EARTH it shall be done for them by His Father which is in heaven.
Why "on earth", you ask. Context will tell you.
¶ “I tell all of you [The Gk. pronoun you is pl.] with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited [Or will be prohibited] in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted [Or will be permitted] in heaven. Furthermore, I tell all of you [The Gk. pronoun you is pl.] with certainty that if two of you agree on earth about anything you request, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven, because where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them.”​
(Matthew 18:18-20 ISV*)
It's two of the disciples that are on earth that he is speaking of. He addresses them as a group with a plural YOU and says if "two of you agree on earth". It isn't a comment about two people in any time or any place. It can be applied to two people at any time and any place but more as an extension and application of the specific promise made to the disciples who were personally present with Jesus on that occasion. So, don't hastily build a doctrine from this occasion, some care is needed to properly interpret what is said and how it applies to people now.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you ... - This is connected with the previous verses. The connection is this: The obstinate man is to be excluded from the church, Mat_18:17. The care of the church - the power of admitting or excluding members - of organizing and establishing it - is committed to you, the apostles, Mat_18:18. Yet there is not need of the whole to give validity to the transaction. When two of you agree, or have the same mind, feelings, and opinion, about the arrangement of affairs in the church, or about things desired for its welfare, and shall ask of God, it shall be done for them. See Act_1:14-26; 15:1-29. The promise here has respect to the apostles in organizing the church. It cannot with any propriety be applied to the ordinary prayers of believers. Other promises are made to them, and it is true that the prayer of faith will be answered, but that is not the truth taught here. [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible]​
Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian minister, he is long since dead, but his interpretation presents difficulties for yours.

A Catholic commented thus: "That if two of you. From these words, we learn how superior is public to private prayer. The efficacy of the former is attributed to the presence of Christ in those assemblies. The Father, for his Son's sake, will grant petitions thus offered. (Jansenius) --- The fervour of one will supply for the weakness and distractions of the other." [Haydock's notes]

Verse 20, however does not stipulate "on earth" but the joining of two or three in Jesus name, and this is true of earthly gatherings and I think of heavenly too.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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My question is how does that work, that this is Mary (queen of heaven) at all.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Who is (a few verses down) the same woman who flees into the wilderness

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The one with the moon under her feet flees into the wilderness
Yes, this is all true insofar as it is a quote from scripture, and the scripture quotes is of a vision, and the vision uses signs and wonders to tell a story which story is intended to be beneficial for the readers through all the centuries until now. So, the passage says:
¶ Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen inside his Temple. There were flashes of lightning, noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.​
¶ A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: a woman dressed with the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a victor’s crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and was crying out from her labour pains, the agony of giving birth.​
(Revelation 11:19-12:2 ISV*)
Blessed Mary as the arc of God in heaven, in whose womb God chose to dwell for a time, is seen. And then a vision of a women is seen. The two are connected, the women being Blessed Many as the daughter of Zion who was to give birth to the messiah. She is crowned with 12 stars, stands on the moon, and is dressed in the sun. She gives birth to a Son who is the Lord, Jesus Christ. This is clear enough to see without too much effort.
 
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Why "on earth", you ask. Context will tell you.
¶ “I tell all of you [The Gk. pronoun you is pl.] with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited [Or will be prohibited] in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted [Or will be permitted] in heaven. Furthermore, I tell all of you [The Gk. pronoun you is pl.] with certainty that if two of you agree on earth about anything you request, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven, because where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them.”​
(Matthew 18:18-20 ISV*)
It's two of the disciples that are on earth that he is speaking of. He addresses them as a group with a plural YOU and says if "two of you agree on earth". It isn't a comment about two people in any time or any place. It can be applied to two people at any time and any place but more as an extension and application of the specific promise made to the disciples who were personally present with Jesus on that occasion. So, don't hastily build a doctrine from this occasion, some care is needed to properly interpret what is said and how it applies to people now.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you ... - This is connected with the previous verses. The connection is this: The obstinate man is to be excluded from the church, Mat_18:17. The care of the church - the power of admitting or excluding members - of organizing and establishing it - is committed to you, the apostles, Mat_18:18. Yet there is not need of the whole to give validity to the transaction. When two of you agree, or have the same mind, feelings, and opinion, about the arrangement of affairs in the church, or about things desired for its welfare, and shall ask of God, it shall be done for them. See Act_1:14-26; 15:1-29. The promise here has respect to the apostles in organizing the church. It cannot with any propriety be applied to the ordinary prayers of believers. Other promises are made to them, and it is true that the prayer of faith will be answered, but that is not the truth taught here. [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible]​
Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian minister, he is long since dead, but his interpretation presents difficulties for yours.

A Catholic commented thus: "That if two of you. From these words, we learn how superior is public to private prayer. The efficacy of the former is attributed to the presence of Christ in those assemblies. The Father, for his Son's sake, will grant petitions thus offered. (Jansenius) --- The fervour of one will supply for the weakness and distractions of the other." [Haydock's notes]

Verse 20, however does not stipulate "on earth" but the joining of two or three in Jesus name, and this is true of earthly gatherings and I think of heavenly too.

So Jesus words where the two of you agree on earth is trumped because of the prior verse which makes where two of you agree on earth void where something far more solid to build a docrtrine on? Like praying to saints in heaven?

How would you know they even agree with you?
 
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Yes, this is all true insofar as it is a quote from scripture, and the scripture quotes is of a vision, and the vision uses signs and wonders to tell a story which story is intended to be beneficial for the readers through all the centuries until now. So, the passage says:
¶ Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen inside his Temple. There were flashes of lightning, noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.​
¶ A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: a woman dressed with the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a victor’s crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and was crying out from her labour pains, the agony of giving birth.​
(Revelation 11:19-12:2 ISV*)
Blessed Mary as the arc of God in heaven, in whose womb God chose to dwell for a time, is seen. And then a vision of a women is seen. The two are connected, the women being Blessed Many as the daughter of Zion who was to give birth to the messiah. She is crowned with 12 stars, stands on the moon, and is dressed in the sun. She gives birth to a Son who is the Lord, Jesus Christ. This is clear enough to see without too much effort.

And she is the New Eve as well correct?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So Jesus words where the two of you agree on earth is trumped because of the prior verse which makes where two of you agree on earth void where something far more solid to build a docrtrine on? Like praying to saints in heaven?

How would you know they even agree with you?
I do not agree with your characterisation of the relationship of the verses, context is not a game of trumpmanship.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And she is the New Eve as well correct?
Blessed Many is "the women" or just "woman" is the antitype of the women mentioned in Genesis before the fall, that first woman became "eve" after the fall.
 
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I do not agree with your characterisation of the relationship of the verses, context is not a game of trumpmanship.

I have posted on this before and included the context many times, for example this post

I posted,

Jesus speaking to his disciples (gathered together) at it shows that is who he speaking to Mat 18:1 all the way up to here...

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, ((( there am I)))
in the midst of them.

Context is always a click away, highlighting the "on earth" part is what I did. I don't see how adding the additional verses changes the location, he could have left it out and said, " where two of you agree" as touching anything you ask, but he didn't
 
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Fireinfolding

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Blessed Many is "the women" or just "woman" is the antitype of the women mentioned in Genesis before the fall, that first woman became "eve" after the fall.

So you would agree its not about Mary but how Paul shows it

Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
 
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