Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

[zoidar]

Felt it was the right time to share a song. God bless you sisters and brothers in Christ!

 

[Yahkov]

No I don't agree that God chose me at all. Reread what I wrote.

What would you think if I told you that God did not know there would be a fall? What would you think if I told you that God did think that there may be a fall but didn't know 100%. How can I prove this?
When God created the Garden of Eden He planted two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone talks about the 2nd tree but what about the 1st tree.

When Jesus was on Earth, one thing He said was that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and Joh_5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. and
Joh_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;

What if I told you that if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life they would have eaten of Jesus. You see that was Plan A. If Adam and Eve had eaten from that Tree they would have been holy and blameless and they would have been adopted children of God. But the downside of this would have been that any children they had would also have had to eaten of this Tree.

Sin did not have to enter this realm but God was ready when it did.

Makes you wonder how Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times. Lucky guess, huh? Also makes you wonder how Jesus knew Judas would betray Him. Jesus must have been full of lucky guesses according to your view. Not to mention the numerous prophecies that were said and fulfilled.

I am starting to think you are just making things up as the conversation progresses. Your "very few people know" view on time, God being an 8th or 9th dimensional being, and now this. For that, I really don't think there's much more to discuss. I'd like to end my discussion with you here.

To the OP, my first post is still good if you'd look into it.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29

Yes, foreknowledge is a part of predestination. As well as love and God's purpose.

 

[Steven Beck]

Makes you wonder how Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times. Lucky guess, huh? Also makes you wonder how Jesus knew Judas would betray Him. Jesus must have been full of lucky guesses according to your view. Not to mention the numerous prophecies that were said and fulfilled.

I am starting to think you are just making things up as the conversation progresses. Your "very few people know" view on time, God being an 8th or 9th dimensional being, and now this. For that, I really don't think there's much more to discuss. I'd like to end my discussion with you here.

To the OP, my first post is still good if you'd look into it.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29

Yes, foreknowledge is a part of predestination. As well as love and God's purpose.

Joh_5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

Again you are not reading what I said. I was just talking about "before the foundations of the world".
Once Time was created of course God can see from the beginning of creation until the end of creation which is Rev 22. Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The prophets couldn't prophecy unless God knew the events coming up. I am not that stupid.

Before the foundations of the world, time didn't exist therefore God could not know what would happen before He created time. After He created time then He does. After the new heavens and new Earth and New Jerusalem is created then Earth time will end and we all go into God time which we call eternity. Then a new chapter and new adventures begin.

 

[AlexDTX]

Are we now trying to "convert" saved Christians to our own dogmas?

Well put, Z! That is exactly what some people try to do.

 

[BBAS 64]

Poppycock. What does Peter say?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Jesus, the Son of God, walked with men that were evil, sinful, full of darkness and He reached out to all.

Good Day, Steven Beck

Time to have a real look at the exegetical realities of this verse in it's context. The you, any, and every one are pronouns to which nouns to they refer? Lets play follow the pronouns.. The proper exegesis of Peter it it's own context and looking at the grammatical construction of the written text.

Enjoy!

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Steven Beck

Time to have a real look at the exegetical realities of this verse in it's context. The you, any, and every one are pronouns to which nouns to they refer? Lets play follow the pronouns..

Enjoy!

Bill

There are new rules to CF. You need to add an explaining discription to a video (unless it's music).

 

[BBAS 64]

There are new rules to CF. You need to add an explaining discription to a video (unless it's music).

Thanks Zoidar! did not know that and I have do so... " The proper exegesis of Peter it it's own context and looking at the grammatical construction of the written text.

 

[BBAS 64]

No one believes this, who believes in God's foreseeing. We all agree that God isn't learning and that He doesn't change. Also we agree (well most of us) that it is God who choses us. The thing in question is how He chooses us. Is it through foresight or through some other complex reason.

Good Day, Zoidar

I would submit the question that is being asked is not "how" the mechanics, but why.

Would you agree?

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

So you want God to take all responsibility for your salvation and you none. Sorry but that is not how it works. At the White Throne judgement seat, God will put all responsibility on man.

Indeed Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish.. Jonah 2:9. The White Throne Judgement is for the non- believer. I believe because God made it so by his mercy and grace though Adoption in accordance with his good will, and granted to me for sake of his son Christ Jesus and not mine.

Jn 6 This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Php 1 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake


In Him,
Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

No I don't agree that God chose me at all. Reread what I wrote.

What would you think if I told you that God did not know there would be a fall? What would you think if I told you that God did think that there may be a fall but didn't know 100%. How can I prove this?
When God created the Garden of Eden He planted two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone talks about the 2nd tree but what about the 1st tree.

When Jesus was on Earth, one thing He said was that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and Joh_5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. and
Joh_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;

What if I told you that if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life they would have eaten of Jesus. You see that was Plan A. If Adam and Eve had eaten from that Tree they would have been holy and blameless and they would have been adopted children of God. But the downside of this would have been that any children they had would also have had to eaten of this Tree.

Sin did not have to enter this realm but God was ready when it did.

Good Day, Steven

I am with Surgeon on this question...


I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine. Spurgeon’s Autobiography, 51


In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I agree that man is naturally inclined towards evil. But how can you know man plays no part in repentance, that it's only God's doing?

Good day, Zoidar

I know I posted this for you before, do you believe that repentance is granted by God?

For the explicit purpose of leading them to the Knowledge of truth?

2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

I would submit the question that is being asked is not "how" the mechanics, but why.

Would you agree?

In Him,

Bill

I believe both how and why is important.

 

[BBAS 64]

Again you have mis comprehended what Eph 1:4 says.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Notice He chooses us IN HIM. In WHO? In Christ. We have to be in Christ before the Father chooses us for something. But what is that something He chooses us for? Not salvation.He chooses us to be holy and blameless. What does that mean?

Before the foundation of the world the Father made a pact with the Son that those who follow the Son and become "IN HIM" will be seen as holy and blameless. In other words Jesus the Son is a filter that God the Father looks through to us. We are not holy and blameless but sinners. That is what the Father has predestined.

Verse 5 - The Father also agreed to adopt us as Sons.

So we as individual human beings choose to follow Christ and we be seen as Holy and blameless and we will adopted sons. Nothing about salvation here.

This is where Paul talks about salvation.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Good Day, Steven

Very focused here to you statement " Verse 5 - The Father also agreed to adopt us as Sons."

What version are you using and where in the text is the proposition to the Father to agree to, and who makes such proposition to the Father.

I would like to see the text from scripture and the grammar of the proposition made to the father.

Also can you explain your view of adoption?

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good day, Zoidar

I know I posted this for you before, do you believe that repentance is granted by God?

For the explicit purpose of leading them to the Knowledge of truth?

2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


In Him,

Bill

I don't know if granted is the right word to use. At least we wouldn't repent unless God draw us.

 

[BBAS 64]

I believe both how and why is important.

Good Day, Zoidar

How is it that God chose the nation of Israel, and how did he (not) choose the nations.

Lets see if there is some consistent pattern..

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't know if granted is the right word to use. At least we wouldn't repent unless God draw us.

Good day, Zoidar

Just checked to 6 versions I have on my system..

1. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading
Or
2. God perhaps will/may give them repentance

Those are the only two options, never the less the meaning of the text is the same..

Do you believe that repentance is granted, or given by God?

For the explicit purpose of leading them to the Knowledge of truth?

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

How is it that God chose the nation of Israel, and how did he (not) choose the nations.

Lets see if there is some consistent pattern..

In Him,

Bill

Through Abraham? Why did God choose Abraham? A good thing to keep in mind is that not all Israelites were saved and there were gentiles at that time that were.

 

[zoidar]

Good day, Zoidar

Just checked to 6 versions I have on my system..

1. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading
Or
2. God perhaps will/may give them repentance

Those are the only two options, never the less the meaning of the text is the same..

Do you believe that repentance is granted, or given by God?

For the explicit purpose of leading them to the Knowledge of truth?

In Him,

Bill

Then we have the same questions. Why and how does God give/grant someone repentance?

 

[BBAS 64]

Through Abraham? Why did God choose Abraham? A good thing to keep in mind is that not all Israelites were saved and there were gentiles at that time that were.

Good Day, Zoidar

Abraham was the instrumental means, but that does not answer the how.
Remember God called him from Ur, that is how he did it.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Abraham was a sinful heathen (gentile) justified by Faith.

Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the 1River, namely, aTerah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods.

He did so (why) because it for-filled His purpose ( which can not fail) also it pleasured Him to do so in accordance with his good will.


OC had believers and non-believers, where has the NC only has Born aging believers it is a way better promise.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Then we have the same questions. Why and how does God give/grant someone repentance?

Good Day, Zoidar

I do not have those questions... you may

Why- Because he can will it, He can will His mercy when ever he chooses to do so, and owns no explanation for his choosing to do or not so.

How- He by His choice of will and infinite power to do Grants (verb) it.

For what purpose- leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

How and why does man repent because of God's will and purposes. No repentance granted (perhaps) , no one repents.

2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In Him,

Bill