Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

[redleghunter]

Is there any Scripture referring to repentance ?

Yes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Any salvation that requires man to act, ie choosing Jesus, is a man centered and merit based salvation.

This does not look true.

If a man DOES NOTHING (doesn't act, as you put it here),

then he does not get redeemed, saved, forgiven, or have eternal life abiding in Jesus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes.

What is written in Scripture about leading someone to repentance?

 

[zoidar]

Now you are getting somewhere.

When I look at my own life. I was resisting the Holy Spirit up to the point were I got proof that the Bible was true. Then I repented and got saved.

The Bible mentions people who did believe that Jesus was the Christ. Even so they didn't repent.

John 12
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

 

[AlexDTX]

Good day, AlexDTX

Not that as far as I can see this has any grounding in the OP post of EPH 1.

But I do have a question...

So you seem to suggest that God "woos and works"for what purpose?

Just to make a response, but that does mean we are able to respond or even will respond correct?

Can God work to elicit a response and fail to get one?
Does it matter to him what we respond?
What governs the way in which we respond?


In Him,

Bill

Frankly, Bill, discussions such as this becomes a case of spinning wheels. Everyone in the discussion is a Christian already, so what one thinks on how God does things is purely academic. And I bet anything that the vast majority of jaw wranglers on this forum do not obey the Great Commission, and rarely, if never share the Gospel to a lost person.

But to answer your question, Jesus said

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

How then does he draw us?

Joh_8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.​

The Scriptures, clearly is one way of drawing us to him. And as the verse states, "he that is of God". Arguments are made that God makes some for salvation and others for damnation. I don't agree with that because of Peter.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

I see humanity as his garden. Some plants grow well and others do not. There are too many reasons for these differences to say here.

In my case I know how God drew me to him. I have had many undeserved blessings in my life, before I came to Christ, that strengthened my belief that God existed and was calling me. Paul said,

Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

This goodness poured on me was his wooing and working in my life.

 

[zoidar]

Frankly, Bill, discussions such as this becomes a case of spinning wheels. Everyone in the discussion is a Christian already, so what one thinks on how God does things is purely academic. And I bet anything that the vast majority of jaw wranglers on this forum do not obey the Great Commission, and rarely, if never share the Gospel to a lost person.

But to answer your question, Jesus said

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

How then does he draw us?

Joh_8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.​

The Scriptures, clearly is one way of drawing us to him. And as the verse states, "he that is of God". Arguments are made that God makes some for salvation and others for damnation. I don't agree with that because of Peter.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

I see humanity as his garden. Some plants grow well and others do not. There are too many reasons for these differences to say here.

In my case I know how God drew me to him. I have had many undeserved blessings in my life, before I came to Christ, that strengthened my belief that God existed and was calling me. Paul said,

Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

This goodness poured on me was his wooing and working in my life.

Now, thinking about it I don't know why I started this thread. It wasn't meant to be a "me against you" thread, but discussions on predestination (and of course atonement) can get heated.

"Everyone in the discussion is a Christian already, so what one thinks on how God does things is purely academic."

Thanks for wise words Alex! Are we now trying to "convert" saved Christians to our own dogmas?

God bless!
/P

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Now, thinking about it I don't know why I started this thread. It wasn't meant to be a "me against you" thread, but discussions on predestination (and of course atonement) can get heated.

Unless two agree, they cannot walk together. Most online do not agree.


Get together in fellowship with Ekklesia who agree, and there is WONDERFUL REWARD !

 

[Redwingfan9]

This does not look true.

If a man DOES NOTHING (doesn't act, as you put it here),

then he does not get redeemed, saved, forgiven, or have eternal life abiding in Jesus.

A man who doesn't act was never called. Christ's sheep hear his voice and they follow him according to John 10. They don't ignore it and choose not to listen. They follow.

 

[zoidar]

Yes it was Gods doing.. that denial was ordained by God ...

We sure have a different view of God.

 

[zoidar]

Arminianism is the desperate, last ditch effort to give mankind control over his salvation. It's completely contrary to scripture and indicates an utter refusal to trust God.

I'm no Arminian, but I don't think that statement is fair to those who are.

 

[sdowney717]

And it could be He chose someone who did not have the qualities needed and who was not willing to obey Him! Jonah is an example.

We "all" started as "children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul does say, in Ephesians 2:2.

So, I find it interesting how a number of people suppose that certain evil people would just change their own evil hearts to trust in Jesus, while other "children of wrath" would not. How could evil people make exact opposite choices, one choosing Jesus and the other staying with Satan?? I mean . . . out of their own evil character . . . how could one make such a good choice, while the other continues with Satan?

I don't think a person of evil character is going to get oneself to choose Jesus.

So, it was God's choice that we will be conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

But if someone claims he or she has chosen Jesus, is this person now choosing to become like Christ and to live and love like Jesus? Or, is the person only claiming to be saved and guaranteed Heaven, but without getting the real correction which prepares us to spend eternity with Jesus? I have known people who claim to be saved, but they do not talk about how God is changing them to be like Jesus. Instead, all they say is they are "sinners saved by grace", but they do not talk about how grace changes us to be and live and love like Jesus > they do not talk about how Jesus in us has us loving like He was loving on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Whether we choose Him or not has to do with our being born again or not.
Not only does God elect us, predestine those whom He foreknew to be conformed to Christ, He gives to us a new heart that can know Him and can be taught by Him. Everyone whom He teaches come to Christ.
If your born again, then this was done not according to your will, it was His will. You must be born again first in order to see the kingdom of Heaven, otherwise it will all be just foolishness to your carnal mind. A carnal mind is a characteristic of someone who has not been born of God and it has enmity against God and such a mind wont be wanting to learn about and follow Christ.

Romans 8

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[NickolasRyan]

What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[NickolasRyan]

If God predestined us before our existence to either heaven or hell and we cannot do anything to change that predestination than why should someone accept Jesus as the Son of God and their Savior?

 

[Redwingfan9]

I'm no Arminian, but I don't think that statement is fair to those who are.

Okay, maybe it's not last ditch.

 

[Steven Beck]

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29

The answer is pretty much irrefutable.

Which pretty much confirms that any written comprehension is about zero.

Read and understand what it says. "For those who He foreknew..."

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Whom did He know beforehand? Abraham, Moses, King David, Elijah, etc etc etc. What were these people predestined for? To be conformed to the image of His Son? Wow easy hey. This verse has nothing to do with salvation or election to salvation or even anything related to salvation. It is ALL about becoming like Jesus.

 

[Yahkov]

Which pretty much confirms that any written comprehension is about zero.

Read and understand what it says. "For those who He foreknew..."

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Whom did He know beforehand? Abraham, Moses, King David, Elijah, etc etc etc. What were these people predestined for? To be conformed to the image of His Son? Wow easy hey. This verse has nothing to do with salvation or election to salvation or even anything related to salvation. It is ALL about becoming like Jesus.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

Well, perhaps my comprehension skills are lacking. Nonetheless, I'll stand firm that Salvation is included and a part of being conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[Jonaitis]

What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Well, the problem with the poll's question is that it assumes the term "foreknowledge" means foreseeing certain events in the future, but that is not what the word means. It never speaks about the individual's actions, when used it always refers to the individual itself. God foreknew his people, not, God foresaw the faith of his people.

I agree, God chose us before the foundation of the world through his foreknowledge, because I understand it differently. It is a personal knowledge, like how I know my mother, not just know things about her. God personally knew and set his affections on certain individuals before they were born, this is how it has been traditionally understood. "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

If you take the idea that God predestined us according to his foresight of future events that would occur, you have theological problems along with it. You have God who learns what would hypothetically occur and make decisions based on what he discovered in the creature - turning God mutable and changing and imperfect. Besides, would it really be called "election" and God "choosing" us if we were up to us?

 

[Steven Beck]

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

Well, perhaps my comprehension skills are lacking. Nonetheless, I'll stand firm that Salvation is included and a part of being conformed to the image of Christ.

So then you disagree with God's word here,

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

and here

Eze 18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

and here

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

and here

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

God has never and never will predestine anyone to salvation. It is a choice that each and every person has to make by their WILL to follow and have faith in Jesus. Yes Jesus did all the work and He presents us with a gift but we must choose to take it. God's Word says so. Predestined to be saved is a lie from the devil and over the years produces weak Christians.

 

[Steven Beck]

Well, the problem with the poll's question is that it assumes the term "foreknowledge" means foreseeing certain events in the future, but that is not what the word means. It never speaks about the individual's actions, when used it always refers to the individual itself. God foreknew his people, not, God foresaw the faith of his people.

I agree, God chose us before the foundation of the world through his foreknowledge, because I understand it differently. It is a personal knowledge, like how I know my mother, not just know things about her. God personally knew and set his affections on certain individuals before they were born, this is how it has been traditionally understood. "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

If you take the idea that God predestined us according to his foresight of future events that would occur, you have theological problems along with it. You have God who learns what would hypothetically occur and make decisions based on what he discovered in the creature - turning God mutable and changing and imperfect. Besides, would it really be called "election" and God "choosing" us if we were up to us?

"I agree, God chose us before the foundation of the world through his foreknowledge, because I understand it differently."

No He didn't. Time did not exist before the foundation of the world so how could He foreknow us? With no time to look ahead into there is no foreseeing. Reread Eph 1:4


He did not choose us individually, He chose us collectively as a church to be what? Holy and Blameless. That is God the Father looks at us through the filter of Jesus the Son and He agreed to that before the foundation of the world.

 

[Yahkov]

So then you disagree with God's word here,

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

and here

Eze 18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

and here

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

and here

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

God has never and never will predestine anyone to salvation. It is a choice that each and every person has to make by their WILL to follow and have faith in Jesus. Yes Jesus did all the work and He presents us with a gift but we must choose to take it. God's Word says so. Predestined to be saved is a lie from the devil and over the years produces weak Christians.

Of course it is our choice. I never said it wasn't. I hold to the belief that God already knows who will choose. And God's foreknowledge is what bridges the gap between predestination and mans free choice.

The Bible several times instructs predestination. The Bible also instructs about our freedom to choose. Both are true.