Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

LoveofTruth · Nov 1, 2019

Yahkov said:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29

The answer is pretty much irrefutable.

Those God foreknew, (who would receive him through repentance and faith) he predestined there to be the “in Christ group” confirmed to the image of His Son. The predestination is to be conformed to the images of His Son. That is the plan, not the individual who comes into that plan.

God predestined the plan we are to come into not the individual.

The evidence is pretty much irrefutable.

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Not merit, but maybe because of repentance?

Good Day, Zoidar

Not sure I understand the question could you ask it in an other way.

I will say that in order to repent repentance must be granted .. it is the cause of repentance.

2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Not sure if that helps.. so please re-ask.

In Him,

Bill

renniks · Nov 1, 2019

roman2819 said:
Besides Ephesians 1, we need to interpret chapters 2 & 3 as well. The 3 chapters explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone. God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him. Predestination is so misunderstood because people are so awed by words such as "He predestine us" and fail to see context.

Ephesians was written to Gentile Christians. Speaking as a Jew, Paul identified with his people by using the adverb 'we' and 'us' to say how God first chose the Jews:

[Eph 1:4-11] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13).. Weren't the Jews the first to hope in Jesus?

Then when referring to the Gentiles, the apostle used the adverb "you" and "you who were Gentiles":

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth …... Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and “uncircumcised” ….. excluded from citizenship in Israel… (Eph 2:13) ..... For He... has made the two groups one... His purpose was... in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… (3:18)... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ."

Before Jesus atonement, the Gentiles did not have access to Jehovah. But after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. This move has been pre-planned or predestined by God. Predestination just means to pre-plan something. More important is what did God pre-plan?

We know that initially Israel was the chosen people of God. After Christ's atonement, the apostles initially thought that God chose to save the Jews only. After Peter's vision, however, the Gentiles were allowed to believe too. But as more Gentile Christians started to outnumber the Jewish believers, the Jews resented it and insisted that Gentiles should observe Sabbath and circumcision. Jews also claimed that God had suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus, implying that Gentiles were less favored. Refuting such allegation, Paul said that God does not show favoritism between the circumcised and uncircumcised [Galatians 2:6].

In Ephesians, the apostle refers to Gentiles as the Elect [Eph 1], thus placing them on equal footing as the Jews (who are chosen). Elect or chosen is a status, it does not mean being chosen to be saved individually.

In the beginning -- before the foundation of earth -- God chose the Jews, but now the Gentiles are also part of the Elect. "Before the foundation of the earth" just means "initially". It is unfortunate that some people are so awed by the words "before foundation of the earth" and "predestination" because they do not interpret in context.

This is pretty much where I fall. Election is corporate.

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Those God foreknew, (who would receive him through repentance and faith) he predestined to be the “in Christ group” confirmed to the image of His Son. The predestination is to be conformed to the images of His Son. That is the plan. Not the individual who comes into that plan.

God predestined the plan we are to come into not the individual.

The evidence is pretty much irrefutable.

Good Day, LoveofTruth

Seeing that both Repentance and Faith are the gifts of God to his adopted children, Then yes he foreknow (noun) that they would believe, as his predestination (verb) is the cause of both faith and repentance... "in Christ" is a indicate inclusion as such is based upon meeting a condition which are results of gifts and not the cause of inclusion.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Those God foreknew, (who would receive him through repentance and faith) he predestined to be the “in Christ group” confirmed to the image of His Son. The predestination is to be conformed to the images of His Son. That is the plan. Not the individual who comes into that plan.

God predestined the plan we are to come into not the individual.

The evidence is pretty much irrefutable.

Good day, Love of Truth

Really I think not..

Those God foreknew, Those here is a plural pronoun to which noun/pronoun does it refer?

In Him,

Bill

dqhall · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

If God had advance knowledge yesterday God was going to advise people today, people yet have free will and may choose to follow or reject God’s calling. God’s creation continues on a daily basis.

“Many are called, few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14

zoidar · Nov 1, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Zoidar

Not sure I understand the question could you ask it in an other way.

I will say that in order to repent repentance must be granted .. it is the cause of repentance.

2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Not sure if that helps.. so please re-ask.

In Him,

Bill

Maybe God predestines those He knows will repent? Surely it's not merit, but mercy.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
True, yet we can't exclude it. Is there anywhere in NT someone is called elect before he/she is a believer?

I would say there is no place in the NT that indicates God's Foreknowledge is based on us exercising faith. In fact the opposite is evident:

Acts 13: 48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The text does not say "all those who believed were appointed to eternal life." But that's your argument which is refuted clearly here.

zoidar said:
My personal belief is that God elects us before time through foreknowledge and through his will and power. So for me it's both God's foreknowledge and God drawing us by His Spirit, making His will come true.

God choosing us is not dependent upon us exercising faith. Ephesians 1 tells us God chooses based on His love and will:

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Says nothing about exercising faith which prompts God to choose us.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Maybe God predestines those He knows will repent? Surely it's not merit, but mercy.

Where do you derive this from? The notion that God cannot just choose Whom He wills?

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

Edit misunderstood point by poster @com7fy8

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

com7fy8 said:
We "all" started as "children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul does say, in Ephesians 2:2.

So, I find it interesting how a number of people suppose that certain evil people would just change their own evil hearts to trust in Jesus, while other "children of wrath" would not. How could evil people make exact opposite choices, one choosing Jesus and the other staying with Satan?? I mean . . . out of their own evil character . . . how could one make such a good choice, while the other continues with Satan?

I don't think a person of evil character is going to get oneself to choose Jesus.

So, it was God's choice that we will be conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

Yes, yes this above. The spiritually dead cannot 'raise' or quicken themselves. Great point.

LoveofTruth · Nov 1, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, LoveofTruth

Seeing that both Repentance and Faith are the gifts of God to his adopted children, Then yes he foreknow (noun) that they would believe, as his predestination (verb) is the cause of both faith and repentance... "in Christ" is a indicate inclusion as such is based upon meeting a condition which are results of gifts and not the cause of inclusion.

In Him,

Bill

The free gift of the Seed or the true Light that lighteth every man came upon all men.

All have God’s light to reprove then, which show the work of the law written in their hearts. Yes, the excellency of the power is of God but God after shining in their hearts the reproof from His Light requires that they repent and receive him inwardly. God does not force this faith. When they receive Christ they receive the faith and now have the substance and evidence inwardly.

God commandeth all men everywhere to repent. And Jesus asked once to others “where is your faith?”

notice the words “your faith”

“ John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

coming to Him, faith, receiving him, etc are not a work we do to earn salvation. Faith is not works and works are not faith as scripture teaches clearly

yes faith works by love and through our faith christ dwells in our heart but these are God’s works not ours so much especially not the old man’s works they are the works of the new man in Christ.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

bling said:
Could God decide, before time began, to save all those who will accept His charity as charity?

The dead are incapable of accepting charity.

bling said:
How is that not predestining who will be saved?

That would be 'us' hu-mans predestinating ourselves.

bling said:
If you say God could not decide to do that are you limiting God’s power?

You put the hypothetical on God. My point would be that is not how Scriptures reveal how God chooses....His Sovereignty.

bling said:
Could the God before time began know everything the God (really Himself) at the end of time knows?

Open theism much? God did create time, space and matter see Genesis 1:1. He is Sovereign over His own creation as the un-created Creator.

bling said:
Would the God at the end of time know everything about all humans choices as unchangeable historic fact?

Read this and let me know:

Acts 2: NASB

22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Whoops, Peter used predetermined and foreknowledge in the same sentence. And if that was not clear this should be:

Acts 4: NASB

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

I think that answers the questions.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Concerning the "crystal ball". Jesus used foreknowledge to know that Peter would deny him thrice. It was hardly God's doing, was it?

Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man. As God it was a revelation.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Not merit, but maybe because of repentance?

What leads us to repentance?

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
The free gift of the Seed or the true Light that lighteth every man cane upon all me n.
All have God’s light to reprove then which show the work of the law written in their hearts. Yes, the excellency if the power is of God but God after shining in their hearts the reproof from His Light requires that they repent and receive him inwardly. God does not force this faith. When they receive Christ they receive the faith and now have the substance and evidence inwardly.

God commandeth all men everywhere to repent. And Jesus asked once to others “where is your faith?”

notice the words “your faith”

“ John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Good day..

Most of the opening is pure speculation at best.... But lets deal with the small pieces of scripture you quoted out of context.. I did not say God forces Faith, I said it was granted hope you can see the difference.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Where is your Faith valid question from Jesus... they did not have it. you seem to assume all men have faith really bad assumption.

2Th 3:2 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.

John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The believers (the ones believing on his name) were "born of God" according to His will the cause of their being born is only God.

In Him,

Bill

fhansen · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Yes, it involves our choices, which involves our response to His grace. And our continued response, our perseverance in doing His will, throughout our lives. From our perspective that's all we really need to know.

And the alternative is that God is the direct cause of all sin/evil that's ever taken place in this world. Not much of a god to place one's trust in.

Redwingfan9 · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Maybe God predestines those He knows will repent? Surely it's not merit, but mercy.

That's not what scripture teaches though. Any salvation that requires man to act, ie choosing Jesus, is a man centered and merit based salvation. The doctrine of election is Christ centered, he comes to save his elect who he has chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)

rnmomof7 · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Concerning the "crystal ball". Jesus used foreknowledge to know that Peter would deny him thrice. It was hardly God's doing, was it?

Yes it was Gods doing.. that denial was ordained by God ...

bling · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
The dead are incapable of accepting charity.

By your seeming definition of “dead” are the “dead” incapable of committing sin?

I use Jesus definition of “dead”. Jesus would use only the very best word to describe the prodigal son while he was in the foreign land yet Christ chose to use the word “dead” twice to describe the young son. So why the young son was dead he came to his senses on his own and turned to the father willing to accept undeserved pure charity.

redleghunter said:
That would be 'us' hu-mans predestinating ourselves.

No! it would not be! We are not even around and might not ever come into existence, God is doing everything.

redleghunter said:
You put the hypothetical on God. My point would be that is not how Scriptures reveal how God chooses....His Sovereignty.

You will have to show me from scripture how that could not be the case.

redleghunter said:
Open theism much? God did create time, space and matter see Genesis 1:1. He is Sovereign over His own creation as the un-created Creator.

I am not at all espousing the Open Theism, God knows everything that will (as far as humans are concerned) and has happened. Open Theism says the future from everyone’s perspective, is not known by God.

redleghunter said:
Read this and let me know:

Acts 2: NASB

22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Whoops, Peter used predetermined and foreknowledge in the same sentence.

There are lots of future (from our perspective) happenings that God controls and they happened exactly as He planned it out, but that does not mean God made it, so I had no choice to accept or reject His charity, but God is doing all He can to help me with my choice, with that everything including Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death and even the allowing me to sin.

redleghunter said:
Acts 4: NASB

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

I think that answers the questions.

No it does not. God can even cause wicked people to do what wicked people will do given the right opportunity which God set up.

You are extrapolating God controlling some future results and saying God controls all future results, which is not true.

God has to plan out and control most everything that happens to provide every mature adult with the very best opportunity to accept or reject His charity, but that one mental autonomous free will choice has to be ours and is allowed by God so we can complete our earthly objective.

Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

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