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Another thing I don't understand about the creationist position...

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Diamond72

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That still fails to address what you mean by "see"
I am telling you WHAT you see. You see light.

To see typically refers to the physical act of perceiving something through the eyes, but it can also have broader meanings. In a figurative sense, "to see" can mean to perceive or understand something, to gain knowledge or insight through observation, or to have a mental image of something in one's mind.
 
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Diamond72

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I am amazed that christians talk and talk about belief yet have a mangled understanding of it.
AI seems to have a way to fix our mangled understanding. By using rules of logic, reason and understanding. Or some kind of algorithm.
 
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Diamond72

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Do you believe that science gives an accurate age of the earth, even though science involves observation?
We have digital instruments now. GPS is pretty accurate and that is the same science that we use to determine the age of the universe. For example, some new satellites, such as the James Webb Space Telescope, are specifically designed to observe the early universe and study the first galaxies that formed after the Big Bang. By observing these distant objects, scientists may be able to gather new data that could shed light on the age of the universe and its evolution over time.

I had a dream when I was around 8 years old where God took me to the center of the universe and showed me the early universe. The photos from the Space Telescopes are a lot more vivid though. Or it is just difficult to remember a dream from over 60 years ago.
screenshot-www.aljazeera.com-2023.02.14-20_53_21.png
 
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kiwimac

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All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
— 2 Timothy 3:16-17
You are making the Bible into something it is not. It is neither God nor a text containing all knowledge. Scripture may indeed by inspired by God but mediated through the minds of humans who are neither infallible nor omniscient. It very much is a product of it's time which is firmly pre-scientific.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are making the Bible into something it is not. It is neither God nor a text containing all knowledge. Scripture may indeed by inspired by God but mediated through the minds of humans who are neither infallible nor omniscient. It very much is a product of it's time which is firmly pre-scientific.
So you are saying that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 only sort of means what it says?
 
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driewerf

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By definition believers of the scriptures believe the scriptures are true. Believers in Christianity, Judaism, Samaritanism, Hinduism and other religions likely believe their respective scriptures.
But Christians are correct. So there’s that.
That's not very impressive as an answer.
No political candidate will say that the other runner is better.
No car sales man will say that an other brand of cars is better than the one he sales.
No believer will say that another religion is the true one.
On the contrary, the politician will urge you to vote for him, the car salesman will try to sell his brand of cars and the believer will tell us that his religion is the true one and all other ones are wrong.
Post #737 fits just that pattern and is not very impressive.
 
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kiwimac

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So you are saying that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 only sort of means what it says?
No, I am saying the Bible is neither God nor infallible. It is a product of it's time.
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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No, I am saying the Bible is neither God nor infallible. It is a product of it's time.
The source from which you derive your information about Jesus Christ has Him claiming that the OT scripture is infallible (John 10:35, Mark 7:8) and in 2 Peter 3:1-2, Peter claims that the same commandments of The Lord were given through the Apostles. Paul explicitly states in 1 Corinthians 14:37-38 that what He is writing is The Lord's commandment and also in 1 Thessalonians 2:13 Paul calls his words the word of God. The Scripture holds itself out as infallible. Truth never changes, it is. Therefore the time in which it was produced is irrelevant, for the truth exists independent of belief or time and will continue to be truth regardless of these factors. Else it's not truth, only belief.

As a leader in the Church I would sincerely ask that you reconsider your belief about Scripture. Not just for your sake but for the sake of the Saints under your charge and care.

God bless :heart: .
 
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Diamond72

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It very much is a product of it's time which is firmly pre-scientific.
God gave us the Bible and God give us Science. They confirm each other and in no way contradict. We need to learn how to study the evidence for ourselves and we need to read the Bible in the original language. There are problems with translation and interpretation.

We are not to trust tradition. We are not to trust man to tell us what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit is our Guide our Comforter and our Teacher. He will guide us and lead us into all truth .

John 16:16​


The Spirit of truth will come and guide you in all truth.
 
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Hammster

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I am amazed that christians talk and talk about belief yet have a mangled understanding of it.

There is amusing story that Mythologist Joseph Campbell tells on the Bill Moyers show
I had a very amusing experience, which might be well worth telling. I was in the New York Athletic Club swimming pool, and you know, you don’t wear your collar this way or that way when you’re in a swimming pool. And I was introduced to a priest, “This is Father So-and-so, this is Joseph Campbell.” I’m a professor, he’s a professor at one of our Catholic universities. So after I’d had my swim, I came and sat down beside, in what we call, you know, the horizontal athlete situation, and the priest is beside me. And he said, “Mr. Campbell, are you a priest?” I said, “No, Father.” He said, “Are you a Catholic?” I said, “I was, Father.” He said, and now he had the sense to ask it this way, “Do you believe in a personal God?” I said, “No, Father.” And he said, “Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal God.” And I said, “If there were, Father, what would be the value of faith?” “Well, Mr. Campbell, it’s nice to have met you.” And he was off. I really felt I had done a jujitsu trick there.​
I’m sure you think this anecdote proves something.
 
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Hammster

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You are making the Bible into something it is not. It is neither God nor a text containing all knowledge. Scripture may indeed by inspired by God but mediated through the minds of humans who are neither infallible nor omniscient. It very much is a product of it's time which is firmly pre-scientific.
I am holding it up to what it claims to be. If it isn’t inerrant, then it is completely useless.
 
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Hammster

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That's not very impressive as an answer.
No political candidate will say that the other runner is better.
No car sales man will say that an other brand of cars is better than the one he sales.
No believer will say that another religion is the true one.
On the contrary, the politician will urge you to vote for him, the car salesman will try to sell his brand of cars and the believer will tell us that his religion is the true one and all other ones are wrong.
Post #737 fits just that pattern and is not very impressive.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
— Romans 1:18-20

I don’t need to make an argument to prove God.
 
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driewerf

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
— Romans 1:18-20

I don’t need to make an argument to prove God.
If you don't feel the need to do so, then don't provide any evidence. I just wonder what you hope to achieve that way.
 
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Hammster

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If you don't feel the need to do so, then don't provide any evidence. I just wonder what you hope to achieve that way.
I showed that I don’t need to provide evidence. God has already done that. What do you think I need to prove?
 
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Astrid

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You are making the Bible into something it is not. It is neither God nor a text containing all knowledge. Scripture may indeed by inspired by God but mediated through the minds of humans who are neither infallible nor omniscient. It very much is a product of it's time which is firmly pre-scientific.
Also making two layers of claims for inerrancy
or infallibility, both obviously false.
First is the one you noted, second is in the
part of the reader who believes it impossible
that their chosen interpretation is incorrect.

That latter strikes me as extremely insensible,
and arrogant. Such arrogance is so out of keeping with Christian values (as this non Christian understands them)!

I see it a lot, though. I don't understand it.
 
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Frank Robert

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AI seems to have a way to fix our mangled understanding. By using rules of logic, reason and understanding. Or some kind of algorithm.
AI would logically come to the same conclusion that mythologist Joseph Campbell did: If belief were logical what would be the value of faith?
 
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Diamond72

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that their chosen interpretation is incorrect.
We have rules for Bible interpretation that we learn in Bible School. Ultimately the Holy Spirit of God is our teacher and our Guide. We do not need men to tell us what they think the Bible says.

2Peter3:16
He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 
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driewerf

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I showed that I don’t need to provide evidence. God has already done that. What do you think I need to prove?
You didn't show that. You provided a bible quote. And I could have written something in the same spirit as post n° 746. No alleged holy book will claim of itself to be wrong and to go look elsewhere. All "holy books" will say that they contain the truth. So again that is not very impressive.
But you didn't answer the question in post n° 754.
What did you hope to achieve with posting that bible quote?
What do you hope to achieve when you feel you don't need to prove god's existence?
 
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Hammster

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You didn't show that. You provided a bible quote. And I could have written something in the same spirit as post n° 746. No alleged holy book will claim of itself to be wrong and to go look elsewhere. All "holy books" will say that they contain the truth. So again that is not very impressive.
But you didn't answer the question in post n° 754.
What did you hope to achieve with posting that bible quote?
What do you hope to achieve when you feel you don't need to prove god's existence?
I don’t need to prove God’s existence because you know God exists, because He’s given plenty of evidence. That you’ve chosen to ignore the evidence and assign it to some other authority is what will bring God’s wrath upon you. My ultimate hope is that you will repent of that sin and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, that He died for sinners, was buried, and rose the third day. Trusting in that brings eternal life.
 
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