Another squeeze for your eschatological understanding.

Watchman_2 · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
The antichrist is seen in Rev 13 blaspheming the raptured church who at the moment when the antichrist is given his 42 months, is dwelling in heaven.

Those "heaven dwellers" are defined in Revelation 12:

Note the timing and what the raptured church is saying.

There is no such thing as the 'raptured church' in the Bible. I suggest you get yourself a dictionary. By the very definition of 'blasphemy', one knows that it can only be against deity -- not mankind's church.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
There is no such thing as the 'raptured church' in the Bible.

And yet, there the church is, dwelling in heaven in Revelation 7 and 12, before the antichrist takes power, having been caught up to God when the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, proving Paul's words (and Psalms and Isaiah and Jesus) correct that Jesus will appear, bodies will rise and we are all changed and caught up to the throne of God!

I suggest you get yourself a dictionary. By the very definition of 'blasphemy', one knows that it can only be against deity -- not mankind's church.

The church is consecrated, watchman2. Look that up in the dictionary.

define blasphemy - Bing DICTIONARY
blasphemy
Definition
blas·phe·my
[ blásfəmee ]

blas·phe·miesPlural

NOUN

1.
disrespect for religion: disrespect for God or sacred things

2.
something showing disrespect for religion: something done or said that shows disrespect for God or sacred things

ivebeenshown · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
And yet, there the church is, dwelling in heaven in Revelation 7 and 12

Firstly, Revelation 7 does not in and of itself state that the multitudes before the throne are the entirety of the Church, nor does it state in and of itself that the depicted multitudes were 'raptured.'

Secondly, Revelation 12 does not in and of itself state that the man-child is the Church, nor does it state in and of itself that 'heavens and you who dwell in them' is the entire Church.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Firstly, Revelation 7 does not in and of itself state that the multitudes before the throne are the entirety of the Church, nor does it state in and of itself that the depicted multitudes were 'raptured.'

Secondly, Revelation 12 does not in and of itself state that the man-child is the Church, nor does it state in and of itself that 'heavens and you who dwell in them' is the entire Church.

Three clues that identify it as the entire church.

1. In both cases they are praising God for salvation.
2. In both cases they are overcomers by the blood of the Lamb.
3. In both cases, they are dwelling in heaven.

No other group can make those claims except the raptured, glorified church.

1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hbr 9:28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1Pe 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Psalm 50

1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

ivebeenshown · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
Three clues that identify it as the entire church.

1. In both cases they are praising God for salvation.
2. In both cases they are overcomers by the blood of the Lamb.
3. In both cases, they are dwelling in heaven.

Your 'clues' may indicate saved souls that dwell in heaven, but you still have failed to provide anything that indicates that it is the entire church. Every saved soul who is currently in heaven meets your three criteria, yet there are still saved souls on this earth that are not yet in heaven.

Watchman_2 · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
And yet, there the church is, dwelling in heaven in Revelation 7 and 12, before the antichrist takes power, having been caught up to God when the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, proving Paul's words (and Psalms and Isaiah and Jesus) correct that Jesus will appear, bodies will rise and we are all changed and caught up to the throne of God!

I have already proved you in error regarding this several times. Who ultimately makes the first resurrection??

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The church is not saved at all -- individuals are saved. Those in heaven already in Rev. 7 and 12 are those that have already died, have been judged 'saved' [Heb. 9:27], and are on the Abrahamic side of the gulf [Luke 16].

The church is consecrated, watchman2. Look that up in the dictionary.

define blasphemy - Bing DICTIONARY
blasphemy
Definition
blas·phe·my
[ blásfəmee ]

blas·phe·miesPlural

NOUN

1.
disrespect for religion: disrespect for God or sacred things

2.
something showing disrespect for religion: something done or said that shows disrespect for God or sacred things

If the church was consecrated, it would make the first resurrection and, therefore, would be itemized in Rev. 20:4. As seen above, the 'church' is no where to be found in the itemized listing of those that are saved at the first resurrection.

In fact, Rev. 20:4 clearly shows that rapture believers will not make the first resurrection. A belief in rapture is the taking of the mark of the beast.

Your entire theology that being a member of a certain [rapture-believing] church would earn you salvation is ridiculous and unscriptural.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Your 'clues' may indicate saved souls that dwell in heaven, but you still have failed to provide anything that indicates that it is the entire church.

The church is dwelling in heaven, saying "NOW IS COME" salvation...the very salvation that Jesus brings with Him when He appears! AND it is occuring at a moment in time when the devil is being cast down to the earth before the antichrist is given 42 months!

Hbr 9:28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1Pe 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rev 12
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
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I have already proved you in error regarding this several times. Who ultimately makes the first resurrection??

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The church is not saved at all -- individuals are saved. Those in heaven already in Rev. 7 and 12 are those that have already died, have been judged 'saved' [Heb. 9:27], and are on the Abrahamic side of the gulf [Luke 16].

The first resurrection is the first of two resurrections during the millennium. The church is resurrected and caught up before the millennium begins.

. A belief in rapture is the taking of the mark of the beast.

So says Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. I guess you've condemned Isaiah, Paul, the Psalmist, Jesus AND ME.

Aren't you the one who said earlier that the antichrist can't blaspheme the church? Well, saying those who "believe in the "rapture" are taking the mark of the beast" is blasphemy.

ivebeenshown · Mar 6, 2011

Watchman_2 said:
A belief in rapture is the taking of the mark of the beast.

Unsubstantiated claim

ivebeenshown · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
Rev 12
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am pretty sure our theology hinges upon our beliefs regarding Israel/the Church. I don't believe they are to be considered separately.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am pretty sure our theology hinges upon our beliefs regarding Israel/the Church. I don't believe they are to be considered separately.

Israel only accepted the New Covenant IN PART along with the gentiles who are grafted in.

But:

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

There is an elect, a remnant, of Israel that will be sealed and protected during the time of wrath, "from the face of the serpent".

God is going to need someone to populate the earth during the millennium. Yes, there will be survivors of the time of wrath but the elect of Israel, sealed on earth, will be a part of that.

God is IN THE PROCESS of creating ONE NEW MAN out of the two. And yes, of course, the church is one already.

By the end of the millennium, all will be ONE.

Maybe someone smarter than me can come along and address this one. I just trust scripture that shows the elect for whom the great tribulation is cut short is BOTH the church and the elect of Israel on earth. (Joel 2, Rev 7, Rev 12)

ivebeenshown · Mar 6, 2011

LovedofHim said:
stuff

That's just it, look at Romans 11. Israel and the Church are one in the same, spiritually-speaking. There is still the 'flesh descendant Israel' but that is not God's children. God's children are his because of spirit, not because of flesh.

Romans 9
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

LovedofHim · Mar 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
That's just it, look at Romans 11. Israel and the Church are one in the same.

Yes, I agree. A PART of Israel and the church are ONE.

But then it goes on to speak of the other part, the part that is enemies of the gospel, saying that they are 'elect' because of their fathers.

Remember what Jesus said to Israel:

Matt 23: 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And when is that moment, when Israel says "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord"?

I see one place in Zech 12 but I know there are more:

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

God is not done with the nation of Israel. We are ever-so-blessed to be in the church as are those of Israel who have accepted Him but God will deal with Israel (not all of them, a remnant of them) and they will know and love him, realizing what they missed when the church is gone.

ivebeenshown · Mar 7, 2011

Zechariah 12 was already fulfilled.

John 19
36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

I am indeedglad to discover that we share (I think) views regarding Israel/the Church. I believe the TRUE Israel is one and the same as the Church, whereas the flesh Israel is just the nation of blood descendants, and not all of them belong to the TRUE Israel, which is the Church.

Now maybe we should discuss the 'remnant'. It seems that is the next stepping stone to understanding your theological view.

son_flower · Mar 7, 2011

LovedofHim said:
The church is dwelling in heaven, saying "NOW IS COME" salvation...the very salvation that Jesus brings with Him when He appears! AND it is occuring at a moment in time when the devil is being cast down to the earth before the antichrist is given 42 months!

Hbr 9:28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1Pe 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rev 12
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The Church is the body of Christ and you have legs and arms scattered everywhere.
Salvation came at the Cross you already know the old covenant was broken and salvation was wrought.

Jesus is OUR brethren and God is HIS God He sais it all the time.

the very salvation that Jesus brings with Him when He appears!

He already DID THAT.

Satan was thrown out after the cross he has been here ever since
And the 42 months can be seen two ways already finished. Since Jesus last words as man were:It Is Finished

Look:
The beast is a composite of ancient Israel turned into a harlot from years of fornication with Babylon.
the 7 nations of Canaan are her heads
10 Crowns of the tribal leaders
her toes are mingled because the Jews mixed with non Jews before they returned to build the second temple
One head is wounded and healed. this happened when Cyrus set them free and they returned to build the Second Temple in 515bc making Jesus blood line possible.
the second temple stood exactly 420 years
if you use 42 hebrew moons instead of months you arrive
at 2520 exactly 1260 new moons ago
2520 was complete in the year 2007

or if you like use Jesus ministry of 3.5 years, time times and half

Its all a matter of belief

B1inHim · Mar 7, 2011

EVERYTHING from the falling away to the AC being revealed to the cutting short of the Tribulation happens BEFORE this.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Love,
Brother Jerry

Watchman_2 · Mar 7, 2011

LovedofHim said:
The first resurrection is the first of two resurrections during the millennium. The church is resurrected and caught up before the millennium begins.

Therein lies one of your many fatal flaws in theology. There is nothing that states the first resurrection is in the millennial reign of Christ. Your own ignorant statement proves it! If the church is raptured prior to the millennium, then the church has to make the first resurrection prior to the millennium.

Scripture is very clear that the making of the first resurrection occurs at the time of death in the flesh. Since Abraham wasn't part of the rapture movement, he [according to you] would not be saved yet until the millennium. Yet, in Luke 16:22, one sees that Abraham has already made the first resurrection. He is not in hell.

Aren't you the one who said earlier that the antichrist can't blaspheme the church? Well, saying those who "believe in the "rapture" are taking the mark of the beast" is blasphemy.

See 1 Tim. 4:1. Rapture is Satan's Doctrine. No one can blaspheme a church -- 'church' is not deity.

LovedofHim · Mar 7, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Zechariah 12 was already fulfilled.

John 19
36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Yes and no. Yes, Jesus was pierced. No, God has not destroyed the nations that come against Israel and poured out a spirit of supplication on them.

I am indeedglad to discover that we share (I think) views regarding Israel/the Church. I believe the TRUE Israel is one and the same as the Church, whereas the flesh Israel is just the nation of blood descendants, and not all of them belong to the TRUE Israel, which is the Church.

Now maybe we should discuss the 'remnant'. It seems that is the next stepping stone to understanding your theological view.

Yes the church (which is comprised of PART of Israel and PART of gentiles) is different, separated from earthly Israel. A remnant of earthly Israel are preserved for a millennial role.

8Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Verse 13 describes the harvest of the church as Israel is planted.
13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Amos 7

1Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.

NIV makes more sense. Also shows the church removed when the remnant of Israel "sprouts".

1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts (gog armies) after the kings share had been harvested (church) and just as the late crops were coming up (Israel) .

LovedofHim · Mar 7, 2011

son_flower said:
The Church is the body of Christ and you have legs and arms scattered everywhere.
Salvation came at the Cross you already know the old covenant was broken and salvation was wrought.

Jesus is OUR brethren and God is HIS God He sais it all the time.

He already DID THAT.

Satan was thrown out after the cross he has been here ever since
And the 42 months can be seen two ways already finished. Since Jesus last words as man were:It Is Finished

Look:
The beast is a composite of ancient Israel turned into a harlot from years of fornication with Babylon.
the 7 nations of Canaan are her heads
10 Crowns of the tribal leaders
her toes are mingled because the Jews mixed with non Jews before they returned to build the second temple
One head is wounded and healed. this happened when Cyrus set them free and they returned to build the Second Temple in 515bc making Jesus blood line possible.
the second temple stood exactly 420 years
if you use 42 hebrew moons instead of months you arrive
at 2520 exactly 1260 new moons ago
2520 was complete in the year 2007

or if you like use Jesus ministry of 3.5 years, time times and half

Its all a matter of belief

Is this preterism?

LovedofHim · Mar 7, 2011

B1inHim said:
EVERYTHING from the falling away to the AC being revealed to the cutting short of the Tribulation happens BEFORE this.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Love,
Brother Jerry

Jerry, that was a summary. Jesus didn't mention the entire 7th seal and there's something amiss with your quotation.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you are confused as to the order of these events, look and see where they are occuring in Revelation.

THe sun and moon darkening is the 6th seal. The tribes of the earth mourning occurs during the first four trumpets of the 7th seal but you won't see that unless you read Joel 1 or Zech 12 and compare to Rev 8. Jesus comes on the clouds after the 7th seal.

The gathering of the elect is a 6th seal occurance found in Revelation 7.

Another squeeze for your eschatological understanding.

According to Jesus' words in Matt 24, the order of events is:

AofD, great trib, trib cut short, antichrist arises

Antichrist arises, great trib, great trib cut short

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