Another Question

[onthegallow]

I am giving a ist of verses. I want you to try and defend that this God is loving of the whole world. If you can, reason every single verse. I don't want anything left out.



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Num 31)

s you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
(Duet 20)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Duet 22:23-24)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Duet 21)

4And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.(Num 25:4)

31And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. 32And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
33And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
34And threescore and one thousand asses,
35And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
36And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
37And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
38And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.
39And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.
40And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.(Num 31:31-40)



On that we can see 10% of the woman were "given" to the Lord. Human sacrifice. Because, even here we have a humans burnt as offering to God.


Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

 

[aiki]

I think you've mistaken the purpose of this forum. We are here to explain and introduce the Christian faith to sincerely inquiring people. You have established pretty clearly at this point that you aren't such an inquirer, but rather a fairly antagonistic atheist (or, at least, anti-Christian). What incentive do you offer for doing all the work necessary to answer your demand? What's to prevent you from simply dismissing out-of-hand all the answers you're provided?

Proverbs 14:6
6 A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it, But knowledge is easy to him who understands.

Proverbs 22:10
10 Cast out the scoffer, and contention will leave; Yes, strife and reproach will cease.

Matthew 7:6
6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Peace.

 

[jpcedotal]

The key to everything you have written is this:

God hates, yes HATES, sin. He will not overlook it, the sinner must be punished. When He sees it, he eliminates it and eliminates anyone that sin has taken root in.

So why is anyone left alive since we all sin?

 

[onthegallow]

Ok, rather than belittling me, just answer the questions I have presented. I have presented reasons why I question God and the God that is presented in the Bible. All I ask is good answers that don't just say "Because he is God". I don't want petty answers, I want thought out ones that are logical. Your Bible says these things, I ain't scoffing. I am just saying what the Bible says. The reason I said dont leave a verse out, is because I dont want someone picking and leaving out the hard ones. This is mainly for someone who has had these questions and feels they have validated their answers, and not someone answering on a whim.

 

[onthegallow]

But they didnt kill the virgins that they could have for themselves. Plus, I thought judgement day was where we pay for our sins. Why have people be killed in their sins and Go to hell. Why not witness and try to win them over.

 

[aiki]

Ok, rather than belittling me, just answer the questions I have presented.

Why? You aren't a serious seeker. You appear only to want to attack the Christian faith while fortifying your own worldview. What's the use in answering your OP when this is your attitude?

I have presented reasons why I question God and the God that is presented in the Bible. All I ask is good answers that don't just say "Because he is God". I don't want petty answers, I want thought out ones that are logical.

And if you get them will you revise your worldview? Will you seriously consider adopting the Christian faith for yourself? I doubt it.

Your Bible says these things, I ain't scoffing. I am just saying what the Bible says.

You have plucked the passages in your OP out of various parts of the OT and implied certain things about Jehovah-God in doing so. There are many, many, other places in the Bible where God demonstrates love, mercy, compassion, holiness, and justice in His dealings with humanity; but rather than trying to synthesize your verses with the picture the whole of Scripture paints of God, you have chosen to isolate and magnify the ones in your OP. Why is that? Why are you so eager to highlight verses which seem to suggest dark things about God and ignore the ones that reveal His goodness and love?

Peace.

 

[Jpark]

I am aware of these controversial Scripture. I used to debate some of these with unbelievers.

However, it is too difficult and overwhelming for me to reply.

I can only provide a summary.

God is required to judge His people since because of His holy nature, He is zealous for holiness. That is why there can be no evil in Him. His people were required to punished to the apostates in Numbers 25:4-5.

Concerning Deuteronomy 22:23-24, the victim was expected to resist the man attempting to rape her.

Concerning Deuteronomy 20-21, it was God's will for the Israelites to conquer Canaan.

Concerning spoils of war, virgins, and women, God merely allowed the Israelites to do so. I surmise this was not a commandment nor a requirement. This was permission. This is evidenced by:

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
(Duet 20)

if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.

 

[Bro_Sam]

I don't want petty answers

Which is kind of ironic, when you stop to consider that your question is based on a very petty premise.

 

[drich0150]

I want you to try and defend that this God is loving of the whole world.

If you will note all of your "questions" were taken from the Old testament. At which point God was not the "loving God of the whole world." God was the loving God of Israel. (This is why so many people hate(d) them.)

How do you make that jump between Judaism and christianity? Perhaps you should Go to ancientHebrews.com and post your list of grievances their.

I really don't see any true questions, what i do see is you judging God with a socially specific contemporary version of fairness. Meaning you have striped all context, Jewish culture, and biblical purpose from the scripture you have taken, and have demanded an account of all you do not understand, or all of what doesn't meet with current acceptable standards and practices. You should know that you will Never have a true understanding of any part of History. (not just biblical history) That is unless you choose to be a little less critical, and care to look at the context in which the story is set: Culture, people's History, beliefs of the people in question, the current policies of the day, Culture and beliefs of the people who opposed them, etc.. You can take any part of History and turn it into a good or evil thing if you want to spin it to serve your agenda.

Ex:

Like what Japan did to the US on Dec. 7th. -or- What the US did to Japan for the rest of the war.

On Dec 7 Japan attacked a military target. The Us Fire bombed (Napalmed) the residential portions of all but potential Abomb targets every night for a large portion of the war. Of which more civilians (non enemy combatants mothers children and old people) died, than US soldiers died during the whole of operations in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters of operation.. Then we nuked them twice.

This is should be a neutral fact of History. We should not subscribe any good or bad merit to either side based on what little was described. why because this fact (much like all of what you have written) has been taken out of the proper context. There are many many more factors that should be considered other than a comparative body counts, or treatment of specific people on very specific occasions, when truly discussing any war.

 

[Van]

Hi OntheGallow, why do we think God loves the whole world when He commanded that people be killed? Recall John 3:16, which starts out, For God so loved the world....
So we have reason to believe God loves the whole world, because of John 3:16, and other verses which say God desires all men to be saved.

But that begs the question, if God does love the world, with the world referring to mankind, why did He command that some people be killed? God is the creator of life, He gives life and He takes life away. So even though God loves the whole world, all of mankind, He also created our environment where pain, suffering and death occur. Thus death is part of God's purpose of creation. We seek God as a refuge. And further, God's plan of redemption included a period of history where God's grace was bestowed on some of the descendants of Abraham, to provide the link to Jesus. Later, at the time of Christ, that grace was extended to the whole world, for Christ became the propitiation (means of salvation) not only for us, but for the whole world. 1 John 2:2.

In summary, at its core, you are asking why God did this and not that, which is second guessing God. Your question asks to judge God as if a man, and reveals a blindness to the right of the potter over the clay, He can make us and He can mush us, He is the potter and the pot has no say.

May God bless

 

[onthegallow]

I am tired of being belittled. So stop it. God did commanded these things, yet you think "Who are you to question?"

Well, who are you to question Allah? Or other Gods?

Yes, God gives life and takes it away. But in natural cases this makes sense, but to make other people do it, doesn't. God said thou shalt not kill. Does this mean you can, if God commands it?

I am not taking things out of context. It says what it says, so stop trying to make me seem like I dont understand and answer the question. If you wanna sit there and assume what is in m y head and condemn me for your thoughts of me, then leave -- I dont need your comments.

 

[drich0150]

I am tired of being belittled. So stop it.

How are you being be littled?

"Who are you to question?"

Well, who are you to question Allah? Or other Gods?

1Thess 5:
21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

God said thou shalt not kill. Does this mean you can, if God commands it?

God actually says: "Thou shalt not Murder."

the difference between Murder and kill is the authority in which death is dealt out. If you kill someone operating on you own authority/reasons then it would be considered murder. If God commands a people to kill another group of people, then it is on the authority of God that those people shall be killed. death is not the end but the beginning of eternity, an eternity in which one can not ignore the existence of God. (unlike this life) If a people will not acknowledge God then what better way to get the attention of those people, and all others like them if they are ushered into the presents of the Lord under the hand of God's chosen?

What most people disagree with is not the death, but the reminder that the life they live is not their own, and God and recall it like a faulty accelerator pedal if He wishes. Those who do not wish to be subjugated under the authority of God have little to no choice but to answer the role call when death finally calls their name. Whether it be from an army of his chosen people or old age, the final result will ultimately be the same. You have a debt to pay, and a potentially angry God to pay it to...

If you wanna sit there and assume what is in m y head and condemn me for your thoughts of me, then leave

What is in your head, about this subject has been clearly illustrated in what you have written. granted this does not fully represent who you are completely, but it does tell of your ideas of personal righteousness and a level of pride one has to have to think that what ever you feel about this given topic is the absolute only way to look at it.

As if you could somehow prove God not righteous, then you too could also be not righteous.. It doesn't work that way. Although God has provided a way for you to be not righteous and still be worthy of a relationship with Him..

-Or-
Look at it like this: If God is real and He did in fact do these things then perhaps "I" don't have enough information, nor context to make a judgment of the Master and Commander of the entire universe on something that happened several thousand years ago... Perhaps instead of demanding an answer to what you perceive to be a heinous crime you should look to understand the text and circumstance better. We are commanded to Question all things,, but it is a sin to cast judgment unless you want to be judged in a similar manner.

 

[aiki]

I am tired of being belittled. So stop it. God did commanded these things, yet you think "Who are you to question?"

You haven't answered a single question that I've posted to you. Why? It seems to me that if you want your questions answered you ought to be willing to answers some questions too. You also aren't acknowledging anything anyone is saying to you about the nature of the question you're asking or their skepticism about the sincerity of your motives for posting the OP. Why is that? Actually, thinking on it for a moment, you didn't actually ask a question, you demanded a defense of God's commands in a series of excerpts from the OT. You seemed to be throwing down a gauntlet rather than inquiring about things Christian.

Well, who are you to question Allah? Or other Gods?

I don't question Allah or other gods. They don't exist.

Yes, God gives life and takes it away. But in natural cases this makes sense, but to make other people do it, doesn't. God said thou shalt not kill. Does this mean you can, if God commands it?

What difference does it make if God takes a life via "natural" means (whatever that is) or commands His followers to do so? Why does it make sense in the former instance but not the latter?

God said "You shall not murder." I obey this command because it is God who gave it. If God gives another command to kill, why would I obey the first command but not the second?

I am not taking things out of context.

Yes, you are. You have not responded to any of those who have observed that your quotations stand isolated from all the other places in Scripture which reveal God's holiness, love, mercy, and compassion. Why have you made such an artificial separation of a few biblical events from the larger stream of the biblical narrative? It seems to me you do this, at least in part, to avoid having to actually assess the entire picture of God that the Bible draws. You want to see Him as something worthy of your spite and defiance so you use these verses and passages in isolation from the rest of Scripture to create a dark caricature of God that justifies your antagonism toward Him. This seems very obvious to me...

It says what it says, so stop trying to make me seem like I dont understand and answer the question.

The very fact that you are taking the tack that you are with what Scripture reveals of God indicates that you really don't understand and that you don't want to understand. It is for this reason that I think answering your challenge is a fruitless endeavour.

If you wanna sit there and assume what is in m y head and condemn me for your thoughts of me, then leave -- I dont need your comments.

We aren't making assumptions; we're just seeing clearly what you're attempting to do and why.

Peace.

 

[aiki]

oops. double post. sorry.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Ok, rather than belittling me, just answer the questions I have presented. I have presented reasons why I question God and the God that is presented in the Bible. All I ask is good answers that don't just say "Because he is God". I don't want petty answers, I want thought out ones that are logical. Your Bible says these things, I ain't scoffing. I am just saying what the Bible says. The reason I said dont leave a verse out, is because I dont want someone picking and leaving out the hard ones. This is mainly for someone who has had these questions and feels they have validated their answers, and not someone answering on a whim.

MY BROTHER,

The "god-like" tone of your demanding voice--"just answer the questions"; "I don't want"; "I have presented"; "All I ask"; "I want"; "I question God"; etc., etc., etc.--makes clear to me the main reason you haven't come across the REAL one and only God yet--HUBRIS.

If you are interested in finding out what God is really like--look to His Son. Jesus is God revealed in His totality.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Jpark]

I am tired of being belittled. So stop it. God did commanded these things, yet you think "Who are you to question?"

Well, who are you to question Allah? Or other Gods?

Yes, God gives life and takes it away. But in natural cases this makes sense, but to make other people do it, doesn't. God said thou shalt not kill. Does this mean you can, if God commands it?

I am not taking things out of context. It says what it says, so stop trying to make me seem like I dont understand and answer the question. If you wanna sit there and assume what is in m y head and condemn me for your thoughts of me, then leave -- I dont need your comments.

I did attempt to answer your question. Did you read my post? What do you think of my answer? Not sufficient?

 

[Van]

Hi OntheGallow,

I am sorry if you believe I am trying to belittle you. That would be unchristian, so for you to make that assumption I must said something odd.

Yes God commanded these things, that is what I said, so I do not know why you are asking yet again?

And yes, I did point out that you are judging God as if God was a man.

Why are you asking me why I question Allah or other Gods. This is an exploring Christianity thread and I am answering your questions about Christianity.

Let me try to explain the "Thou shall not kill (murder) command. This is God's command to us, acting as individuals. Christians can kill acting under the cover of government sanction, for example a policeman protecting folks from a Texas mass murderer. In the cases you cited, the actions were sanctioned by the government of the nation, a theocracy.

I do not know who made the charge you were taking the passages out of context, but I did not.

Hopefully, I have answered your questions.

May God Bless

 

[onthegallow]

I am saying that God in the old testament doesnt match up to the new testament. Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law. God has people save virgins for themselves, but yet people say God commanded them to kill these people because of their sins, yet they can keep virgins. Wonder how they would know if they were virgins. God also has them kill babies. I fail to see how this is a being worthy of worship and I am asking for you guys to validate why He is worthy of worship, other than that he can send you to hell. I am asking you guys to validate with all these things in the old testament, why he is worthy of praise.

I was frustrated by Aiki's comments because I was a Christian (maybe still am) and Ive read all the Bible and such in high school. I know how Christians think, and I am trying to have this be serious without "fluffy"/ flippant answers. If you truly don't have answers or don't have a way to validate it but choose to cash your chips in with God, I respect that answer much more than one-lined answers.

I am trying to be convinced otherwise if someone does a well enough job. The only reason I may argue back is because I think someone didn't answer it well and might point out why I think that. Don't take it personal, I just dont like answers that took not much thought when I have pondered this for awhile,, working from this at all angles. I believe in objective argumentation. I had questions about the Christian faith, and one day decided to see how well I could build/support these questions and then work from reverse, and it seems reverse doesn't do a good job.

And to Van: is it ok for God to let the lion, Satan, prowl around seeking who he may devour when God can kill this "murderer"?

 

[Joveia]

This is my understanding regarding the taking over of the Canaanite lands by the Jewish invaders led by Moses (which is touched on in some of your verses) (compiled from here).

1. It wasn't because the Israelites were righteous or good that God gave the Canaanite lands to the Israelites. It was because the Canaanite nations were unusually bad. Often cultures have some morally bad practices, but the Canaanites had pushed it to an extreme. "After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you. (Deut 9.4)"

2. These practices included child sacrifice (burning their children as a sacrifice for their gods), forced cultic prostitution (people were forced into sex slavery in temples), and they had a violent culture because archaeological records show that they were a 'war culture' that had periodically destroyed neighbouring cultures.

3. The Canaanites had been given a series of warnings from God before the Israelites came that their practices were unacceptable and that they should repent. Sort of like Nineveh and Jonah. They did not listen to God and God gave the land to the Israelites when their sin had 'reached their full measure' (Gen 15:13-5).

4. When the conquest happened the Israelites had to offer peace first before attacking a nation, and it is only after the nation rejected peace that they were attacked.

5. If the nation was attacked then the people who died were only those who stayed to fight. Otherwise they would have run away and the Israelites were forbidden from chasing after people who ran away from the battle.

6. The purpose of the conquest was not to genocide or annihilate the Canaanites but to 'drive them out' - to send them away from that land. Although 'destruction' language is used, there are twice as many references to 'driving out' than 'destruction'. See 2 Kings 16:3 "But he went in the ways of the kings of Israel, and even made his son go through the fire, copying the disgusting ways of the nations whom the Lord had sent out of the land before the children of Israel." God didn't want to genocide the Canaanite people, and didn't, He wanted to get them out of the land so the Israelites could go there, as part of His judgement on their cultural practices.

7. God shows no favouritism. When Israel and Judah started doing the same sins, then God drove them out using the Assyrians in a similar way.

 

[ebia]

I am giving a ist of verses. I want you to try and defend that this God is loving of the whole world. If you can, reason every single verse. I don't want anything left out.

Is your question really "how do you know what God is like?", or is your question "given that view of God, what do you make of these passages in that light?"