Another question from a different thread.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Soothfish said this in another thread;

The "angry atheists" are angry because deep down they know that they are doing something very immoral. What that something is depends on the person. In many cases they are trying to promote a radical left wing agenda and despise any religious institution that wants to counter it. That doesn't mean they think a deity exists and hate him for it. It means they know goodness exists and they hate it!

I find the bolded parts rather offensive. To say I, as an unbeliever, am up to immoral acts and even hate goodness is extremely ignorant. I value ethical behaviour. I just don't value your "ethical" behaviour.

Soothfish, I spent over 20 years as a Christian. The majority of the time I was a regular church goer. During my time in church I encountered hypocrisy on a massive scale. I've known Christians who were drug addicts, alcoholics, child abusers (physical and sexual), tax dodgers, pornographers and wife beaters. These were all professing Christians. In my time as a Christian I've seen two major church splits; one because a debate sprung up as to whether women should wear hats in church, and the other because a woman gave a "prophecy" during a service in which she called a good Pastor a hypocrite and full of pride. I've seen Christians bully other Christians out of a church because they weren't the right type of Christian. I've seen Christians deliberately spread lies about others in order to cause trouble for them. I've personally been threatened once by a Christian with physical violence and on another occasion I was nearly bullied out of a house group because the house group leader didn't like me.

Christians do not have exclusive rights to morality. In fact, from what I've seen, both in my 20+ years as a Christian, and on this forum, the majority of Christians are quite unpleasant people and extremely hypocritical.

So tell me, Soothfish, what is it exactly that we unbelievers are doing that is not already being done, or has been done, in your own churches? Get your own house in order before you tell me I am evil person who hates goodness!

I'm an "angry atheist" not because I love own immorality, but because I despise the hypocrisy of Christians who claim condemn others for the very things they are doing in secret themselves.

 

[steve_bakr]

Soothfish said this in another thread;

I find the bolded parts rather offensive. To say I, as an unbeliever, am up to immoral acts and even hate goodness is extremely ignorant. I value ethical behaviour. I just don't value your "ethical" behaviour.

Soothfish, I spent over 20 years as a Christian. The majority of the time I was a regular church goer. During my time in church I encountered hypocrisy on a massive scale. I've known Christians who were drug addicts, alcoholics, child abusers (physical and sexual), tax dodgers, pornographers and wife beaters. These were all professing Christians. In my time as a Christian I've seen two major church splits; one because a debate sprung up as to whether women should wear hats in church, and the other because a woman gave a "prophecy" during a service in which she called a good Pastor a hypocrite and full of pride. I've seen Christians bully other Christians out of a church because they weren't the right type of Christian. I've seen Christians deliberately spread lies about others in order to cause trouble for them. I've personally been threatened once by a Christian with physical violence and on another occasion I was nearly bullied out of a house group because the house group leader didn't like me.

Christians do not have exclusive rights to morality. In fact, from what I've seen, both in my 20+ years as a Christian, and on this forum, the majority of Christians are quite unpleasant people and extremely hypocritical.

So tell me, Soothfish, what is it exactly that we unbelievers are doing that is not already being done, or has been done, in your own churches? Get your own house in order before you tell me I am evil person who hates goodness!

I'm an "angry atheist" not because I love own immorality, but because I despise the hypocrisy of Christians who claim condemn others for the very things they are doing in secret themselves.

So you're saying that Christians are human.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

So you're saying that Christians are human.

Nice. No, I'm saying they're hypocrites if, like Soothfish, they are dictating how we non-believers should behave when they themselves are involved in sin.

 

[joey_downunder]

It is sad that you have rejected Christianity because of hypocritical christians. Yes there are way too many of us. There also many different types of hypocrisies that should be viewed differently as well.

I was an extremely judgemental christian until I fell into deep sin like the people you describe. I learnt there were different types of hypocrites in the process: social christians (only there for fellowship and/or entertainment no faith), family christians (there from family expectations, no personal faith), churchianists (extremely fluent in christian lingo as well as there for fellowship, probably some degree of faith), "skeleton-in-the-closet"christians (some faith but deep pattern of sin) and finally wolves in sheep's clothing (no explanation required).

Now if your church saw what was going on what did they do about it?

I apologise for people like me who weakened your faith and made excuses for their choice to sin and then abused you in the process. That was terribly unfair and you have every right to be angry for how unchristian they were to you. They will be accountable to God for treating you like that one day.

 

[drich0150]

Soothfish said this in another thread;



I find the bolded parts rather offensive. To say I, as an unbeliever, am up to immoral acts and even hate goodness is extremely ignorant. I value ethical behavior. I just don't value your "ethical" behavior.

Soothfish, I spent over 20 years as a Christian. The majority of the time I was a regular church goer. During my time in church I encountered hypocrisy on a massive scale. I've known Christians who were drug addicts, alcoholics, child abusers (physical and sexual), tax dodgers, pornographers and wife beaters. These were all professing Christians. In my time as a Christian I've seen two major church splits; one because a debate sprung up as to whether women should wear hats in church, and the other because a woman gave a "prophecy" during a service in which she called a good Pastor a hypocrite and full of pride. I've seen Christians bully other Christians out of a church because they weren't the right type of Christian. I've seen Christians deliberately spread lies about others in order to cause trouble for them. I've personally been threatened once by a Christian with physical violence and on another occasion I was nearly bullied out of a house group because the house group leader didn't like me.

Christians do not have exclusive rights to morality. In fact, from what I've seen, both in my 20+ years as a Christian, and on this forum, the majority of Christians are quite unpleasant people and extremely hypocritical.

So tell me, Soothfish, what is it exactly that we unbelievers are doing that is not already being done, or has been done, in your own churches? Get your own house in order before you tell me I am evil person who hates goodness!

I'm an "angry atheist" not because I love own immorality, but because I despise the hypocrisy of Christians who claim condemn others for the very things they are doing in secret themselves.

What of the "Morality/hypocrisy" of the "moral atheist?" Are you saying such a person does not exist? Or does true hypocrisy make allowances for it's own? Meaning those who are atheist and consider themselves "moral" people get a pass when they cheat of their taxes, spread deliberate lies, abuse children and so on and so fourth, simply because they are atheist?

After all are you not speaking from the same "moral" high ground that you presume christian/hypocrites are speaking from? So what differentiates the "Moral" Hypocrite/Christian, from the "Moral" Hypocrite/Atheist? and why does one get a pass in your book while the other needs to be publicly ostracized for doing the EXACT same thing?? Two more quick questions, and then I look forward to your response, Are you now planning to leave Atheism for the hypocrisy that "moral" atheists have shown? If no then why did you leave Christianity?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

What of the "Morality/hypocrisy" of the "moral atheist?" Are you saying such a person does not exist? Or does true hypocrisy make allowances for it's own? Meaning those who are atheist and consider themselves "moral" people get a pass when they cheat of their taxes, spread deliberate lies, abuse children and so on and so fourth, simply because they are atheist?

After all are you not speaking from the same "moral" high ground that you presume christian/hypocrites are speaking from? So what differentiates the "Moral" Hypocrite/Christian, from the "Moral" Hypocrite/Atheist? and why does one get a pass in your book while the other needs to be publicly ostracized for doing the EXACT same thing?? Two more quick questions, and then I look forward to your response, Are you now planning to leave Atheism for the hypocrisy that "moral" atheists have shown? If no then why did you leave Christianity?

I didn't leave Christianity because of its hypocrites. I left it because of the weak evidence for its claims. The atheist worldview, a universe without a god, has more evidence in favour of it.

You know, I rarely see atheists make moral claims to the extent that Christians do. I'm sure there are plenty atheist hypocrites out there though. Such people are bound to exist. However, this does not excuse the hypocritical Christians who preach condemnation to the godless heathen then touch to pornography when they are alone, or plot against their elders to have them removed from church on spurious doctrinal claims, or gossip about people who are weak and vulnerable.

EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, I would not defend an atheist moral hypocrite any more than I would defend a Christian one. Hypocrisy is the same, no matter who is doing it.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Now if your church saw what was going on what did they do about it?

In one church I went to, the Pastor himself turned out to be a paedophile and an adulterer (he also confessed to using pornography on several occasions). In another case, a retired minister confessed, after his daughter died, that he had abused her as a child.

Regarding the church splits I think I mentioned, elders often have the real power in Baptist churches, and the elders have usually been around for longer than the poor Pastor. In the case of the hats and whether women should wear them, I believe it was an elder who asked for this, and the church split as result. Regarding the prophecy split I mentioned, this was given the wife of an elder. I think the elder and his prophetic wife left to join a charismatic church, and many people followed them. The Pastor was forced to retire by the remaining elders as they felt a fresh start was necessary. It's a shame because I really liked that Pastor too.

In another case, we (my parents and I) had been involved in our first Charismatic church but had to move for work reasons. We found out several years later that the church had split not long after we left; the Pastor's youngest son had shacked up with some girl he impregnated, his eldest son had divorced (after getting caught having an affair) and renounced his faith, and the Pastor himself, after all this transpired, had tried to claim money from the church's account before making a swift exit himself. He told the church that he deserved something for all the crap he'd put up with, but they refused to give him anything. This case was particularly odd because the Pastor and his family seemed very solid Christians.

As for some of the other cases, Evangelical churches don't cope well with members who are drug or alcohol abusers, or involved in sexual sins. In most cases these members don't get the help they need and are judged out of the church. This forces them to move to another church were they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Regarding the Christians who gossiped and spread lies about others, this was always a case of who was more popular (or who had elders on their side). In one case I remember, a person I knew was bullied out of teaching Sunday School for nothing more harmless than saying Santa was an anagram of Satan. Silly, I know. Another guy I knew (a great guitarist who played with the Worship team on Sundays) was bullied out of the church by a particularly bitter elder who didn't like the guitarist's long hair.

Other than all this, I've seen the usual bitter rows, fights and other soap-opera events that go on at most churches.

I've seen a lot of messed up stuff at church, which is why I don't believe Christians have any special moral claims. That's not to say I've seen better behaviour from atheists; I live in a village were almost everyone is scamming the dole, even those who work. But I wouldn't put this kind of behaviour past most Christians either.

 

[joey_downunder]

I went to a christian women's bible study especially designed for survivors of sexual abuse (that I went to years after that extremely bad relationship). Their so-called christian relatives often had positions of authority in the church. Church "rank" was a great cover for their abuse.

It proves that christians are still sinners no matter how many years they have been a christian. That is no excuse though, just a statement of fact.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I went to a christian women's bible study especially designed for survivors of sexual abuse (that I went to years after that extremely bad relationship). Their so-called christian relatives often had positions of authority in the church. Church "rank" was a great cover for their abuse.

There was a story in the US a while back of a girl who was raped by an older Christian and got pregnant. She was made to stand in front of the church and confess to fornication before they (the church) relocated her.

stopchildabuse: Pastor Guilty Of Raping Teen, victim forced to confess her sin, the pregnancy

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/alleged-...rl-allegedly-forced-confess/story?id=13631339

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, how are abused Christians supposed to get help if their relatives (and probably the ones abusing them) are the very people who are tasked with helping them? That's quite sickening.

 

[someguy14]

Christians do not have exclusive rights to morality. In fact, from what I've seen, both in my 20+ years as a Christian, and on this forum, the majority of Christians are quite unpleasant people and extremely hypocritical.

As followers of God, The Creator of all, the seen and unseen, followers of Christ, Gods Word, are followers and The Spirit of God, all goodness, is worthy of all consideration and focus of "morailty" and goodness. That, that is good, is in fact good and worthy of agreement that it is in fact good. For that is truth.

To call goodness bad and badness, good, is an error and an enemy of truth. If you can view all goodness, in truth, of God, than you can understand that God is all the good. That all creation, all things that exist, all that is, seen and unseen, that is good, is of God, then you can understand that God is due all credit, for all good. Focus on the good and give credit to God for it, instead of mankind. If you look at Christ, we can all agree that Christ is good, therefore we must conclude that all goodness is from God alone. Deny yourself and take up the cross. Live for something greater, God. For God is all the good, alone.

 

[someguy14]

There was a story in the US a while back of a girl who was raped by an older Christian and got pregnant.

Christ is good. Rape isn't good. It isn't difficult to understand.
To accuse a "christian" of rape, is an error. A lie. A christian, follower of Christ, isn't a rapist. Rape isn't good. Christ is good. Like calling dirt, air. Dirt isn't air, dirt is dirt. Air is air.

 

[joey_downunder]

I have no idea how to answer that question. I haven't ever heard of that happening. I am sure christian and secular counsellors who work with a lot of abuse survivors would know if that happens though. I am sure some abusers might try to get away with it using that strategy to avoid further exposure or criminal charges.

 

[someguy14]

If you witness a wickedness, it isn't of Christ. If you witness a goodness, it is of Christ. Good is good and wicked is wicked.

 

[someguy14]

Get your own house in order before you tell me I am evil person who hates goodness!

If you love actual goodness, you will love Christ. Christ is good.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Christ is good. Rape isn't good. It isn't difficult to understand.
To accuse a "christian" of rape, is an error. A lie. A christian, follower of Christ, isn't a rapist. Rape isn't good. Christ is good. Like calling dirt, air. Dirt isn't air, dirt is dirt. Air is air.

Have you read anything else in this thread? You're using the "no true scotsman" fallacy. Basically you're saying that because this guy raped a girl, he couldn't have been a real Christian. Maybe he wasn't, who knows? However, the church he was in decided to get rid of the girl for her "fornication".

Also, I've been around Christians. With few exceptions, they're mostly unpleasant people. Read my other posts in this thread. Those people were all professing Christians.

The best Christians, I've found, are those who don't pretend to be anything other than human beings who try to emulate the life Christ lived. The worst Christians are those who judge others, and use their faith as a weapon for their own prejudices.

 

[Soothfish]

Soothfish said this in another thread;



I find the bolded parts rather offensive. To say I, as an unbeliever, am up to immoral acts and even hate goodness is extremely ignorant. I value ethical behaviour. I just don't value your "ethical" behaviour.

Soothfish, I spent over 20 years as a Christian. The majority of the time I was a regular church goer. During my time in church I encountered hypocrisy on a massive scale. I've known Christians who were drug addicts, alcoholics, child abusers (physical and sexual), tax dodgers, pornographers and wife beaters. These were all professing Christians. In my time as a Christian I've seen two major church splits; one because a debate sprung up as to whether women should wear hats in church, and the other because a woman gave a "prophecy" during a service in which she called a good Pastor a hypocrite and full of pride. I've seen Christians bully other Christians out of a church because they weren't the right type of Christian. I've seen Christians deliberately spread lies about others in order to cause trouble for them. I've personally been threatened once by a Christian with physical violence and on another occasion I was nearly bullied out of a house group because the house group leader didn't like me.

Christians do not have exclusive rights to morality. In fact, from what I've seen, both in my 20+ years as a Christian, and on this forum, the majority of Christians are quite unpleasant people and extremely hypocritical.

So tell me, Soothfish, what is it exactly that we unbelievers are doing that is not already being done, or has been done, in your own churches? Get your own house in order before you tell me I am evil person who hates goodness!

I'm an "angry atheist" not because I love own immorality, but because I despise the hypocrisy of Christians who claim condemn others for the very things they are doing in secret themselves.

Sorry if you were offended but I do not recant that statement. So far I have no reason to believe that those who actively promote atheism have any real love towards humanity. An enormous number of them seem to be active proponents of a highly immoral and destructive social agenda.

If you are not here because of a social agenda then please say so. So far I haven't the slightest clue what your true intentions are. Atheists never tell me what they really care about, only what they hate. They seem to only care that they have "the truth" as they say. When they speak on the subject they go on the attack and try to crush their opponent but won't tell anyone WHO they care about even when questioned directly. So the only thing I know about you is what you hate. That's not a pretty picture for anyone to paint of themselves.

I also used to be an atheist up until very recently. I was in a deep brooding depression for years when I discovered that the world was actually a pretty bleak place. I would lose months worth of sleep just contemplating the countless men, women, and children who were being tortured and slaughtered across the world. So much for the idealism of youth. Barely got out of that pit of despair. You can complain about the actions of individuals claiming to be Christians but there is no denying that the real world is a place not worth celebrating. There is death and pain and horror beyond what most care to contemplate. If God doesn't exist, if he isn't there to raise the dead, then that bleakness is the sum of reality. Somewhere in the world a little toddler is getting her sawed off with a rusty knife. If God doesn't exist then evil wins and that evil action is the ultimate expression of power. Nothing can undo the destruction. This is more than just a debate to me. This is more than a game on the internet. This is serious and important to me beyond what words can adequately describe.

Therefore, whenever I see someone gleefully promoting atheism, I can only come to one of two conclusions: 1. They know nothing about how dark the world really is or 2. They could not care less

Honestly I couldn't care less if you think you have "the truth". My current impression of those who gleefully proclaim their atheism is that they only care about getting the upper hand in the debate while actual people are worthless to them.

So what are you really about besides hating religious stuff?

 

[someguy14]

Have you read anything else in this thread? You're using the "no true scotsman" fallacy. Basically you're saying that because this guy raped a girl, he couldn't have been a real Christian. Maybe he wasn't, who knows? However, the church he was in decided to get rid of the girl for her "fornication".

Also, I've been around Christians. With few exceptions, they're mostly unpleasant people. Read my other posts in this thread. Those people were all professing Christians.

The best Christians, I've found, are those who don't pretend to be anything other than human beings who try to emulate the life Christ lived. The worst Christians are those who judge others, and use their faith as a weapon for their own prejudices.

Good is good. No room for confusion.
God is all the good. Creation is made by God. Only God is worthy of praise. It all belongs to Him alone.

 

[someguy14]

However, the church he was in decided to get rid of the girl for her "fornication".

Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Sorry if you were offended but I do not recant that statement. So far I have no reason to believe that those who actively promote atheism have any real love towards humanity. An enormous number of them seem to be active proponents of a highly immoral and destructive social agenda.

If you are not here because of a social agenda then please say so. So far I haven't the slightest clue what your true intentions are. Atheists never tell me what they really care about, only what they hate. They seem to only care that they have "the truth" as they say. When they speak on the subject they go on the attack and try to crush their opponent but won't tell anyone WHO they care about even when questioned directly. So the only thing I know about you is what you hate. That's not a pretty picture for anyone to paint of themselves.

No, I'm not here trying to promote a social agenda. I'm as sceptical of politics as I am of religion. I'm here to try and find the truth in the Bible, given what we know (scientifically) about the world. I'm here to learn and to see if I was right in abandoning my former Christian faith. I'm here because if I was wrong about abandoning my faith, then I owe it to myself to find some kind of equilibrium between science and faith that makes sense to me.

I also used to be an atheist up until very recently. I was in a deep brooding depression for years when I discovered that the world was actually a pretty bleak place. I would lose months worth of sleep just contemplating the countless men, women, and children who were being tortured and slaughtered across the world. So much for the idealism of youth. Barely got out of that pit of despair. You can complain about the actions of individuals claiming to be Christians but there is no denying that the real world is a place not worth celebrating. There is death and pain and horror beyond what most care to contemplate. If God doesn't exist, if he isn't there to raise the dead, then that bleakness is the sum of reality. Somewhere in the world a little toddler is getting her sawed off with a rusty knife. If God doesn't exist then evil wins and that evil action is the ultimate expression of power. Nothing can undo the destruction. This is more than just a debate to me. This is more than a game on the internet. This is serious and important to me beyond what words can adequately describe.

So you used to be a depressed atheist angry at the world, and now you're a depressed Christian angry at atheists.

Honestly I couldn't care less if you think you have "the truth". My current impression of those who gleefully proclaim their atheism is that they only care about getting the upper hand in the debate while actual people are worthless to them.

So what are you really about besides hating religious stuff?

You are full of anger and very judgemental of those who shared your former worldview. If you were anywhere near to being a real Christian (i.e., a follower of Christ and his message of love, peace and reconciliation with God) you would not be so full of bitterness and prejudice. Don't take your prejudices out on me. I've stated my reasons for why I'm here.

I think I remember you had a go at me on another thread and I called you out on that too. You're one of the worst examples of Christianity I've encountered on this forum, and all your posts reek of anger, bitterness and self pity. I don't think we have much else to discuss to be honest.

Also, I don't hate religious "stuff"? I hate hypocrisy, I hate prejudice and I hate ignorance. I believe that all people, including religious people, should strive to be free of such things.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Many are called, few are chosen.

Are you some kind of bot?