Another question for zionists:

Poke · Aug 8, 2006

Zionists point to Genesis 12 and claim that God will bless the US for blessing the state of Israel. I disagree with that, but I'm not going to challenge the zionist interpretation here. I'd just like any zionist here to present a case that America has indeed been blessed for supporting Israel.

Poke · Aug 12, 2006

This post has been up long enough to become the most comprehensive collection of arguments and examples of America being blessed by supporting Israel.

Next time one of you feel the need to defend jewish racial supremacism by pointing to Gen 12:3, feel free to reference this thread to support your claim.

Interestingly enough, this thread also contains the most comprehensive collection of recommended battle strategies critics of Hezbollah's strategies have given, except for the rollover-and-die maneuver.

ContraMundum · Aug 12, 2006

You don't think America is blessed?

I thought it was rather obvious- but then again, I'm quite well travelled and can compare.

(Incidentaly, some interpreters of Gen 12 say that it includes all the descendants of Abraham, including the sons of Ishmael- the Arabs)

Poke · Aug 12, 2006

ContraMundum said:
You don't think America is blessed?

The point is that America is not blessed for supporting Israel. I have never seen anyone make a case for the US actually being blessed for its support of Isreal.

America's blessing stem mostly from America's pro-Christian past. But, those blessings are fading as America is becoming anti-Christian.

(Incidentaly, some interpreters of Gen 12 say that it includes all the descendants of Abraham, including the sons of Ishmael- the Arabs)

The correct intretation of Gen 12 is that people are blessed for supporting Christians, Abraham's spiritual children.

ContraMundum · Aug 13, 2006

Poke said:
The point is that America is not blessed for supporting Israel. I have never seen anyone make a case for the US actually being blessed for its support of Isreal.

I've seen it plenty of times, but then again, it's subjective.

The correct intretation of Gen 12 is that people are blessed for supporting Christians, Abraham's spiritual children.

Prove it.

Poke · Aug 13, 2006

ContraMundum said:
I've seen it plenty of times, but then again, it's subjective.

Yeah, that's why you nor anyone else has made the case. Yeah, it's subjective. "Oh look, Intel has come out with a faster processor, blessed be us for supporting Israel." I don't think that's as easy to link to US support of Israel as, say, the dead sailors on the USS liberty, 9/11, the billions drained from us every year in Israeli aid, ad nauseum. Then there's the opportunity cost which is a whole other can of worms, such as the decay in American culture because Evangelicals are busy cheer-leading war and Israel.

Prove it.

See the NT.

ReformedChapin · Aug 13, 2006

This thread is ridiculous there is no way you can show that america is blessed or not blessed for supporting israel. All we do know is that these are God's choosen people even if they have repeately rejected him he will still have room for them as stated in scripture.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2006

NewGuy101 said:
This thread is ridiculous there is no way you can show that america is blessed or not blessed for supporting israel. All we do know is that these are God's choosen people even if they have repeately rejected him he will still have room for them as stated in scripture.

Is that for anyone that is a citizen of the country of Israel, regardless or religion, race or creed?
Let me ask you this. Do you believe the Jewish Temple/Sanctuary was "divinely" destroyed in the first century? Just curious.

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Y@hovah of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of the Y@hovah of hosts.

ReformedChapin · Aug 13, 2006

LittleLambofJesus said:
Is that for anyone that is a citizen of the country of Israel, regardless or religion, race or creed?
Let me ask you this. Do you believe the Jewish Temple/Sanctuary was "divinely" destroyed in the first century? Just curious.

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Y@hovah of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of the Y@hovah of hosts.

I'm not going to get into a debate regarding semantics, we're going to be here all day.

applepowerpc · Aug 14, 2006

Let's see, the U.S. was around in 1776, Israel came along in 1948. Yep. It must be Israel why we are blessed.

Of course, it could be that the U.S. was the land of opportunity, abundant in natural resources, for immigrants around the world to obtain freedom and a new life, and those who made the leap worked hard to secure the blessings we have today, but....

ContraMundum · Aug 15, 2006

applepowerpc said:
Let's see, the U.S. was around in 1776, Israel came along in 1948. Yep. It must be Israel why we are blessed.

..but the first synagogue in the US was dedicated in 1763.

Of course, it could be that the U.S. was the land of opportunity, abundant in natural resources, for immigrants around the world to obtain freedom and a new life, and those who made the leap worked hard to secure the blessings we have today, but....

Of course, there's always that too- not to mention the Christian faith (which came form the Jews anyway- so again the world is blessed through Abraham).

applepowerpc · Aug 15, 2006

The Christian faith came from Christ.

Torah · Aug 16, 2006

Media War
On the day the Intafada broke out, Tuvia Grossman was riding a taxi to visit the Western Wall. He was unwittingly thrust into the international limelight -- and nearly killed in the process.
Updated May 2002
On September 30, 2000, The New York Times, Associated Press and other major media outlets published a photo of a young man -- bloodied and battered -- crouching beneath a club-wielding Israeli policeman. The caption identified him as a Palestinian victim of the recent riots -- with the clear implication that the Israeli soldier is the one who beat him.
The victim's true identity was revealed when Dr. Aaron Grossman of Chicago sent the following letter to the Times:
Regarding your picture on page A5 of the Israeli soldier and the Palestinian on the TempleMount -- that Palestinian is actually my son, Tuvia Grossman, a Jewish student from Chicago. He, and two of his friends, were pulled from their taxicab while traveling in Jerusalem, by a mob of Palestinian Arabs, and were severely beaten and stabbed.
That picture could not have been taken on the TempleMount because there are no gas stations on the TempleMount and certainly none with Hebrew lettering, like the one clearly seen behind the Israeli soldier attempting to protect my son from the mob.
In response, the New York Times published a half-hearted correction which identified Tuvia Grossman as "an American student in Israel" -- not as a Jew who was beaten by Arabs. The "correction" also noted that "Mr. Grossman was wounded" in "Jerusalem's OldCity" -- although the beating actually occurred in the Arab neighborhood of Wadi al Joz, not in the OldCity.
In response to public outrage at the original error and the inadequate correction, The New York Times reprinted Tuvia Grossman's picture -- this time with the proper caption -- along with a full article detailing his near-lynching at the hands of Palestinians rioters.
Read Tuvia Grossman's in-depth, first-person account of his ordeal, entitled Victim of the Media War. www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/
The photo of a bloodied Tuvia Grossman became a symbol in the struggle to ensure that Israel receives the fair media coverage that every nation deserves.
In April 2002, a District Court in Paris ordered the French daily newspaper "Liberation" and the Associated Press to pay damages to Grossman in the amount of 4,500 Euro.
The Court condemned the Associated Press for "mispresenting [Grossman] as a member of the Palestinian community," while the court censured "Liberation" for "publishing the litigious picture with a comment edited the same faulty way, giving the picture a meaning and a scope it could not have."
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/The_Photo_that_Started_it_All.asp

Treppers · Aug 16, 2006

The idea that Israel receives unfavourable media coverage, particularly in the US media is... well I won't be sarcastic or rude, but I think it can be easily shown to be false. Again, I have no time to go into it now, I will post in detail later.

ContraMundum · Aug 16, 2006

Treppers said:
The idea that Israel receives unfavourable media coverage, particularly in the US media is... well I won't be sarcastic or rude, but I think it can be easily shown to be false. Again, I have no time to go into it now, I will post in detail later.

AT the risk of sounding like Judge Dredd in the Stallone movie version- "I KNEW you'd say that!"

No one doubts that Israel has its cheer squads in some elements in the media, but really, so does her enemies. What you see in the media around the world is tempered by a) where you live and b) what you choose to source for your information.

Anyway, I have no idea why you would want to spend so much effort to make your point when everyone knows the media is open to bias, one way or another, and there's not much point getting into a volley-for-volley engagement that will end up changing no-one's mind, but if you must- go ahead, knock yourself out!

Treppers · Aug 16, 2006

Are we still smarting from my systematic deconstruction of your arguments and methods earlier on?

The claim was that Israel received negative bias. I disagreed. you then state, "No one doubts that Israel has its cheer squads in some elements in the media..." Why? You admonish me with this statement, yet I've implied as much myself in the post.

I'm still waiting to hear your rebuttal of Benny Morris, Sara Roy and your own State Department reports on terrorism by the way.

"Anyway, I have no idea why you would want to spend so much effort to make your point when everyone knows the media is open to bias, one way or another, and there's not much point getting into a volley-for-volley engagement that will end up changing no-one's mind, but if you must- go ahead, knock yourself out!"

Good, you've saved me some time then. So in future discussions can we assume that the US media has considerable pro-Israel bias? And what gave you the idea that I have any hope of changing someone's mind? That is surely an impossible goal when it comes to the brainwashed loonies you find on here, with their authoritative sourcing from random Zionist websites and their ignorance of leading scholars. I'm just in awe.

ContraMundum · Aug 16, 2006

Treppers said:
Are we still smarting from my systematic deconstruction of your arguments and methods earlier on?

I think you think that your arguments are better than they are. I pretty much chuckle when I read your rebuttals- I think "I would have written that junk when I was his age too", which is why I forgive you.

I'm still waiting to hear your rebuttal of Benny Morris, Sara Roy and your own State Department reports on terrorism by the way.

I had no idea I was under obligation to entertain you or grace you with my time to chase your merry-go-round of endless and meaningless citations of contrary sources. Are you new at this internet thing or what? Most people work out fairly early that debate goes around and around and all it achieves is more of the same.

Because I have no idea what specific works of those people you are referring to, it's difficult to respond, if I cared to. Also, I don't have a State Department- I'm not in the US. Anyway, even if you gave me specifics, why would I bother to respond? I can cite just as many sources against those people as the next guy, and you wouldn't care- are you getting the picture?

On the other hand- when these people get it right, it doesn't mean you get the credit- they do. They do the hard work. But, at the end of the day, you need to decide real things about this- like which side you want to take in the clash of civilizations. Sure, you may not like the methods currently being employed, but you can still takes sides and work on improvement on the side you choose to stand on. That's your hard work set before you.

What'll it be?

Good, you've saved me some time then. So in future discussions can we assume that the US media has considerable pro-Israel bias?

Define "considerable", and then prove it. Then, if we agree, you can assume as such. Until then, it's all hot air.

And what gave you the idea that I have any hope of changing someone's mind?

That's not the point- the point is what gave YOU the idea that you might "win" such a discussion?

That is surely an impossible goal when it comes to the brainwashed loonies you find on here, with their authoritative sourcing from random Zionist websites and their ignorance of leading scholars. I'm just in awe.

Surely you mean-

"That is surely an impossible goal when it comes to the brainwashed loonies you find on here, with their authoritative sourcing from random or well-worn anti-Zionist websites and their ignorance of leading scholars. Anyway, I'm just in awe that God is stil in charge of His people and the Bible turned out to be true."

Do you think anyone who disagrees with your sources is "brainwashed"? Also- if it is so easy to brainwash millions of people, would you entertain the possibility that you could also be brainwashed?

OR- could you give people who also think critically yet disagree witth you a little more credit?

By the way- why do you support Hamas, Hezbollah etc? You still haven't told us. (Or if you have, I might have missed it).

Because you don't have a faith icon (which is required in this forum, I believe) we don't really know your position unless you tell us.

applepowerpc · Aug 16, 2006

Good, you've saved me some time then. So in future discussions can we assume that the US media has considerable pro-Israel bias?

Click to expand...

Define "considerable", and then prove it. Then, if we agree, you can assume as such. Until then, it's all hot air.

First thing, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it hot air.

Second, lest there be any doubt there is pro-Israel media bias, just look at every IDF soldier aired on television. Where are the women? Every woman in Israel is required to serve in the IDF, too.

ContraMundum · Aug 16, 2006

applepowerpc said:
First thing, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it hot air.

What I meant by hot-air is argument without substance. I sometimes disagree with arguments that have some substance too, so it's not about agreement, it's about information.

Second, lest there be any doubt there is pro-Israel media bias, just look at every IDF soldier aired on television. Where are the women? Every woman in Israel is required to serve in the IDF, too.

What gender the soldiers are on tv is irrelevant to whether or not the media is pro-Israel. I can't see your point of view- perhaps it's a bit too obscure for me.

Anyway- I just saw a bunch of Israeli women soldiers on tv yesterday, so it's all academic. I don't know what percentage of them are in combat roles either, and that may have some effect on the likelihood of seeing them in combat on tv.

MezzaMorta · Jun 7, 2007

Treppers said:
Are we still smarting from my systematic deconstruction of your arguments and methods earlier on?

Not difficult

Another question for zionists:

Poke

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Messianic Jewish Christian

Poke

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Poke

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Chapin = Guatemalan

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Chapin = Guatemalan

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Messianic Jewish Christian

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