Another Poll on Salvation: A Logical Approach

[Van]

Yes God arranged for Adam to sin. Did He supernatually alter Adam (harden Adam's heart)? Scripture does not say. What scripture says is before creation God chose Christ (God the Son) to be His Lamb 1 Peter 1:17-21. Logically, you do not choose a Redeemer unless you predetermined plan is that there will be people in need of redemption. I know this is a debatable point, with many excellent scholars holding other views, but that is the way it looks to me.

Another point upon which I disagree is that if God arranged the fall, we are not responsible for our sins. This assertion assumes that our sins of volition are compelled by our fallen state. The bible clearly indicates we can choose to sin less, we can deal with people with integrity, we can do unto others as we would want them to deal with us. Or we can be treacherous. Our fallen state influences us but does not compell us. In our fallen state we can pursue the righteousness of God by the works of the Law or by faith in the finished work of Christ. Romans 9:30-33.

 

[cygnusx1]

Of course they (Adam and Eve) had free will. But that does not mean God did not know their heart, their core character, and did not arrange for Satan deceive Eve and put the temptation of violating God's command before Adam, knowing that Adam would fail. Just as Jesus knew Peter would fail.

Do not buy the compatalist argument that we cannot make choices, that we are compelled by our past. This redefines the meaning of the word choice. God sets before us a choice, and exhorts us to choose life. We are not compelled by our fallen state with our limited spiritual ability to reject the gospel, see Matthew 13:20-23. Unregenerate folks can receive the gospel with joy. On the other hand, folks entering the kingdom of God can be shutoff from heaven by false teachings Matthew 23:13. Choice any way you slice it.

the compatabilist arguement does not deny choices , you are confusing fatalism with compatabilism ......

for those who wish to persue this a good starting point is here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

and here;


http://www.carm.org/open/free_will.htm

 

[Easystreet]

Yes God arranged for Adam to sin. Did He supernatually alter Adam (harden Adam's heart)? Scripture does not say. What scripture says is before creation God chose Christ (God the Son) to be His Lamb 1 Peter 1:17-21. Logically, you do not choose a Redeemer unless you predetermined plan is that there will be people in need of redemption. I know this is a debatable point, with many excellent scholars holding other views, but that is the way it looks to me.

Here is what Genesis tells us:

16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Freedom here while it was given to eat of good was also permitted to eat of evil.

God according to this verse did not pre-determine Adam to sin.

Adam's realm of freedom was LIMITED to his environment.

 

[Van]

Gordon, I am not sure, but I think your last post agreed with my position.

Compatablism says we can only make the choice dictated by our past, or in other words we have only one choice which is no choice, which redefines the meaning of choice to distort scripture. Libertarian free will is the biblical position.

 

[cygnusx1]

Gordon, I am not sure, but I think your last post agreed with my position.

Compatablism says we can only make the choice dictated by our past, or in other words we have only one choice which is no choice, which redefines the meaning of choice to distort scripture. Libertarian free will is the biblical position.

you have not grasped this issue at all van!

Compatabilism does NOT say we can only make a choice dictated by our past , it would help if you began quoting from Compatabilists instead of taking their thoughts and bending them and dishing them out with what YOU think they mean.

LFW if it were true , would be the most potent , dangerous thing that could exist , and this world could never last very long if each human had a will that was totally independant and free from first the influence of God , or indeed the influence of society , parents , friends and last but not least the persons own character!

You would have absolutely no control over your descisions because your will would be disconnected and free from the rest of your being ..... you might find yourself praying one minute then commiting suicide , giving to a charity then killing someone or praising God then worshipping Satan if the will was disconnected from your character and it's direct influence.

for a clearer understanding try here ; http://withchrist.org/freedom.htm

and especially here;

http://home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/essay/13.htm

 

[Desolate Owl]

Compatabilism does NOT say we can only make a choice dictated by our past , it would help if you began quoting from Compatabilists instead of taking their thoughts and bending them and dishing them out with what YOU think they mean.

Have you read the Wikipedia article you posted earlier?

"While a decision making process exists in Hume's determinism, this process is governed by a causal chain of events. For example, a person may make the decision to support Wikipedia, but that decision is determined by the conditions that existed prior to the decision being made." (emphasis added)

According to the bold text, the decision is determined by the past. This is in an article which you directed people to.

LFW if it were true , would be the most potent , dangerous thing that could exist , and this world could never last very long if each human had a will that was totally independant and free from first the influence of God , or indeed the influence of society , parents , friends and last but not least the persons own character!

Libertarian free will does not necessarily teach that a person's decisions are free from or unaffected by these influences. It only states that a choice can be made or not made even with these influences.

 

[Easystreet]

Jesus had the will to disobey, if he so chose. It was because he chose the will of the Father that made the Sacrifice wholly acceptable to God.

Amen to that

 

[Easystreet]

Actually number 3 is a bit tricky. [yes it can be, it is a logical progression]Since Jesus is God, it was His determination to die, [agree] it follows that God knew in advance [agree] what must happen. But this is not because God knew it. Rather it was because He determined it. [Now here is where the train leaves the track. Foreknowledge is first and Predetermined out come is secondary. Regardless of what side of the issue of election we take a plan must have had been conceived. At this point it is foreknown and then determined. You can not determine a plan that does not exist that is why it follows knowing. Logically it would be (1) A plan is formed, (2) That plan is in and of itself foreknown, (3) The will to make it happen POWER follows. Determined that a plan will happen. In other words God can not determine what has not been first thought of or planned. Actually Foreknowledge precedes everything regardless of view or results or determination. He is all knowing so it has to logically be first, but when viewing God as Eternal Now - if that is the correct way to express it - Foreknowledge, Plan, and determination are all eternal present. However, to us we reason out in logical progression and might I add we are created in the image of God. So it stands that if our progression is (1) I am thinking about doing {foreknowledge}, (2) I lay it out - a plan - my thoughts are complete and I too know in advance what the plan is before I determine it. (3) Now the last step logically is to determine it. Now predetermine it not in the sense that it was predetermine before it was though of and planed but predetermine prior to Creation. In other words You think of building a house, you plan and complete the plan. The house does not exist. So you predetermine that you will completely 100 percent bring the plan into existence. The exact type of lumber, nails, etc. This is why I see Predetermined as after the fact with respect to salvation. The plan is the key not the determination to make it happen. It only becomes PRE Determined once Creation is.

We talk allot about predetermination. I do believe we are headed in the wrong direction in this respect.

A PLAN: What was God's Plan?

He knew He would Plan

He Knew He would determine it and pre-determine it before He created it.

Both are after Foreknowledge. Foreknowledge would not be what it is if it were not prior to.

Now here is an interesting thought. Because God knows all, that is His state of existence as we might express it as punctiliar (if you studied Greek this will make sense) future ._______ or past_______. and just eternal present (.). Mind boggling to say the least. Then to put any thing into place would mean that because God knows all He knew in advance {How can in advance be in advance when everything is eternally now with God} that he planed, Foreknew, and then determined and predetermined. We speak in terms of Space and Time. This is where we find ourselves taking different sides of the Election debate. It is fun and most of us here complete enjoy the back and forth. Our thinking is predicated upon our reality and God created it. He created us in his image and the reality we live is reasoned out as such. Time and Space - Thinking, planning, is knowing ahead of time or it comes first. Completing the plan is also predicated by knowing in advance. Determining the plan too is knowing in advance. And the finished product is seen as having been pre-determined. We are looking back. But pre-determined is not before knowing and planning. To take any other position is to slap logic in the face. It just does not happen that way - You can not pre-determine nothing and even nothing is known before it is. Reality - for us - Time and Space - Created in the image of God - We think in terms of progression, sequence, conception to inception. Will anyone disagree with this Logic. Probably. I won’t be me you can count on it. This is fun, Have at it.

But foreknowledge alone does not prove that something must happen, [True] but rather that it will happen. {agree if a plan is in place and it is determined to be implemented prior to its actual implementation} If a decision is truly free, then it is God who must know what will happen, and if something else will be decided, then God must know that instead. It's not that God knows what must happen,[ must in terms of salvation is a given because God is Holy therefore He does or must know that to save man His standard must be met] but that God must know what will happen. [agree] It is impossible for him to know otherwise.[ and even at that He knows both what must be and what will be][/quote]

This is fun Good mind stretching process.

God Bless

 

[Van]

Thanks Desolate Owl for revealing truth.

 

[Easystreet]

"It is, “What causes people to make the choices they make?” "
Not sure who wrote this but it is from cygnusx1 Post.
Can it be possible that God who is the first cause - cause man to have the ability to chose. I think so. God gives man the ability to decide on this or that. It is not disjointed free will, but limited in the sense that we are confined to time, space, and physical ability. From the stand point of decisions on choice that does not involve anything physical then the ability to say I believe or do not believe was caused by God because He created us. Whatever the "ability" is of humans it is caused by God. But to say that God can only cause us to be totally free and disjointed form cause is foolishness in my thinking and to say that God cause a person to accept Christ apart for the ability to reject is foolishness as I see it too.

First, I don't thing anyone will argue what God is not cause and He causes all things. But how is it He cause it. What are the variables of what was caused. If God is all powerful He can cause anything as He likes. I simply see God as causing humans to exist and within their existence He cause us to have the God given ability to decide between factors, thoughts, positions, etc.

To be it is simple.

 

[themuzicman]

Before voting in the poll consider the following and vote Agree or Disagree

"Consider the logic of this view that God knows - for sure - precisely how we will use our freedom. It goes like this:

(1) God knows all things, including the future (Isa. 46:10: Ps. 147:5)

Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, `My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

These two prooftexts are insufficient grounds for making statement #1. All that is required is for God to know all possible courses of the future, and to know that He can bring about what He intends in every one of them.

(2) God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the Cross (Acts 2:23; cf. Rev. 13:8)

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this [Man], delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put [Him] to death

Rev 13: 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.


Again, neither requires that God know from the beginning of time that Christ would die on the cross. Act 2:22 only requires that God knew before Christ died that he would die (probably since the fall), and even then not the exact time or place is required.

In Rev 13:8, the 'been written" is a perfect passive, which indicates an ongoing process in the past (in this case, which has not been done) of writing in the book, which began at the foundation of the world.

So, #2 is not shown from scripture, either.

(3) Thus, Jesus must die on the Cross. (If he had not died on the Cross, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. But an all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.)

Since #1 and #2 aren't valid, #3 does not follow. Further, to say that God must do anything suggests something sovereign over Him, in this case, foreknowledge.

(4) But Jesus freely chose to die on the Cross (John 10:17-18).

Finally something we agree upon.

(5) Therefore, one and the same event is both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time.

Again, lack of proper foundation. Your prooftexts have proven insufficient, thus your conclusions are erroneous.

Muz

 

[Van]

Again, neither requires that God know from the beginning of time that Christ would die on the cross. Act 2:22 only requires that God knew before Christ died that he would die (probably since the fall), and even then not the exact time or place is required.

Finally something we disagree on Muzicman. If you look at 1 Peter 1:17-21, the question arises, what about Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. First in verse 20, I think the "He" is inescapably Christ, and if the Anointed One of God was foreknown, one must conclude that His sacrifice was foreknown.

 

[themuzicman]

I don't think 1 Peter is as clear as many wish it to be. The passage says that Christ was foreknown, or "known before "the foundation of the world. That just means that He existed then, as eternal God. It doesn't say that His death was foreknown.

The statement is a contrast: One the one hand, known before the foundation of the world, but on the other hand, appearing in the last days for your sake. The latter is the element of being the sacrifice, not the former.

Muz

 

[Van]

Your view seems odd because it is not God the Son that is known before creation, but the Anointed One of God, Christ. I think your view must accept that knowledge of Christ logically indicates that the knowledge of the purpose of Christ existed at the same time.

 

[cygnusx1]

When you have come to accept that even our Repentance was God's gift to us , then and only then can we make any headway , while you deny it , it (predestination) remains a contentious issue ........


“Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11:18).


“Jesus hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel.” (Acts 5:31).

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves: if God, peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25).

 

[Easystreet]

Your view seems odd because it is not God the Son that is known before creation, but the Anointed One of God, Christ. I think your view must accept that knowledge of Christ logically indicates that the knowledge of the purpose of Christ existed at the same time.

Question: If God Knows All at all times equally which would fully support His all knowingness then who can God not know Christ and Chart as the Son at the same time.

Also, Christ is God, the Son is God they are the same. God is all that you mention and He is one - I would have to disagree with your view on this one.

Always enjoy the discussion.

God Bless

 

[Easystreet]

I don't think 1 Peter is as clear as many wish it to be. The passage says that Christ was foreknown, or "known before "the foundation of the world. That just means that He existed then, as eternal God. It doesn't say that His death was foreknown.

The statement is a contrast: One the one hand, known before the foundation of the world, but on the other hand, appearing in the last days for your sake. The latter is the element of being the sacrifice, not the former.

Muz

Interesting thought, however, if God knows all past, present, future. Nothing catches Him by surprise - then his foreknowledge is total, complete, and absolute in the sense that it is lacking nothing in the realm of knowing.

My understanding of Scripture leads me to this conclusion. Perhaps the Psalmist is replete in teaching us this truth, not excluding all other Scripture.

 

[Easystreet]

In This Life we have sufficient Scripture to support Free Will. Now Stop OK. Let not get caught up in semantics. Here Free Will is Free Will that Humans Have - thus it is limited to our abilities in time and space. We are created in the image of God we are not God.
OK got that out of the way.
Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Romans 1: 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
I Cor. 7:39. A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
2 Cor. 8: 3. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, {they gave} of their own accord,
Philemon 14. but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
I Peter 5:2. shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to {the will of} God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
2 Cor. 9: 7. Each one {must do} just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
There are tons more where these came from ---------- What say you?

 

[Easystreet]

23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Freedom: The Free Gift of God. What is it? Eternal Life in Christ Jesus
The death is not cessation of existence. It is Separation for God, because He is Holy and we are sinful.
Spiritual Death is correctly understood as Separation because of sin. To make anything else of it I believe
is wrong.
There is not way we can come on here and discuss this if we are literally dead. Any argument to that
purpose would amaze most folk.
Once the man on death roll is executed He can not receive a pardon. The result of his death sentence is over. The same is true of us. We are under a death sentence and the execution day is physical death regardless of reason. Once you and I die the free gift no longer applies to us. It is over. Surly no one can disagree with this!
So, in order for freedom to be offered it must be that the person it is offered to can accept it. Such an offer is worthless unless it is valid by way of accepting. The whole notion that God forces salvation on some and refuse it to others flies in the face of truth, justice and the (American way no ) God’s way. God’s love, mercy, grace and justice are balanced. If we throw out the implication of any of these variables we cripple the balance they teach. Love and mercy (forgiveness) are products of Grace and with out the justice of God they are cripple. The Love, mercy and Grace are demonstrated in Christ (God). God punished Himself to fulfill the just requirement for the penalty of sin.
Lets face it. You did not chose to be born. Therefore, you were born into a world as a sinner because you inherited Adam and Eve’s sin nature. God has provided a way for all off spring to come back to God by way of Grace. He is looking for us because in our sin we are not looking for Him. Aren’t you glad He is looking for you?
He knows we are in jail so to speak and He comes to our captive state and tells us I died for you will you accept my pardon and live or reject it and die in your sin. It is that simple. This is what the Scriptures teach. I love to discuss the fine points of Election but in the end the question is will you accept or reject. Define it as you will - I can’t control that but all lost people have to accept the free gift or suffer Hell and later the lake of fire. Now that is Good Baptist Doctrine. Biblically Correct first however and as Baptist we like to believe and think we are Biblically correct.

 

[Van]

Hi Gordon, recall that God does not know His decisions before He makes His decisions. Thought before knowledge. Thus when God annointed the Son as the Christ is when God's knowledge of Christ's purpose occurred. So His knowledge of Christ as redeemer, as the Lamb of God must exist when Christ was foreknown.

So you have nothing to disagree with.