Another Poll on Salvation: A Logical Approach

[Easystreet]

Before voting in the poll consider the following and vote Agree or Disagree

"Consider the logic of this view that God knows - for sure - precisely how we will use our freedom. It goes like this:

(1) God knows all things, including the future (Isa. 46:10: Ps. 147:5)

(2) God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the Cross (Acts 2:23; cf. Rev. 13:8)

(3) Thus, Jesus must die on the Cross. (If he had not died on the Cross, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. But an all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.)

(4) But Jesus freely chose to die on the Cross (John 10:17-18).

(5) Therefore, one and the same event is both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time.

 

[BrandonGray]

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree- god knew jesus would die, but jesus still had free will, god just knew what he would choose.
4. agree
5. errr I think disagree

 

[Easystreet]

Brandon, is number three a true statement of Logic.

3) Thus, Jesus must die on the Cross. (If he had not died on the Cross, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. [is this “If” - “Then” a true Logical statement?] But an all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.) In other words because God knows is he wrong in what He knows? He knows what He knows. That sure makes logical sense to me. Logically how can you say you don’t agree? Is it not logical as presented? The statement is true to Logical form “IF” - “Then”. Just curious.

The question is - is this logic true. Jesus is God - God is Jesus. God knows that God will die on the corss. In that God knew that God would die on the cross then if He had not died then logically God would be wrong about what He foreknows. If what God foreknows does not come to pass then that which is to come to pass does not come to pass He would be wrong about what He foreknows. How is it that you don't agree with that?

 

[Easystreet]

1) God knows all things, including the future (Isa. 46:10: Ps. 147:5)

(2) God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the Cross (Acts 2:23; cf. Rev. 13:8)

(3) Thus, Jesus must die on the Cross. Looking at this without explination attached do you not agree that point "3" is logical?


(4) But Jesus freely chose to die on the Cross (John 10:17-18). You agreed on this point. In that Jesus is God He then foreknew that He Himself would freely chose to die on the Cross and therefore as stated in # 3 He must die on the cross.

(5) Therefore, one and the same event is both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time.

You disagreed with number 5. How is it that God Who exist in the eternal NOW - all is eternally present all the time. In that this is the case with God then predetermining what He will do is synonymous with choosing how and what to do. All things happen in the eternal now with God. God foreknows what He predetermines and predetermines what He foreknows. It is logically impossible to separate the two.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Jesus had the will to disobey, if he so chose. It was because he chose the will of the Father that made the Sacrifice wholly acceptable to God.

 

[Easystreet]

Is this a true statement, "Everything Known by God must necessarly be?

I say yes. What do you say?

 

[Van]

I disagree with parts of the five point statement. Lets take point 4. Verse 18 says Jesus laid down His life on His own initiative. He had the authority to lay it down. But He was commanded to lay it down by His Father, and since Jesus alway does the will of the Father, being sinless, He was not free to not accept the cup without His Father's blessing. As Peter says in Acts 2:23, God had predetermined that Christ would die on the cross.

Lets take point three. If God has predestined something, and God is all powerful, then no plan of God can be thwarted. Thus God knows what He has predestined, and what He has predestined must come about because God is all powerful.

Psalm 147:5 says God's understanding or knowledge is beyond what we can measure or understand. Rather than "infinite" a more literal translation would be "innumerable."

Isaiah 46:10 says God declares the end from the beginning, so this supports the idea that whatever God has declared, He has predestined, and therefore causes the predestined event or circumstance to come about.

 

[Calminian]

Actually number 3 is a bit tricky. Since Jesus is God, it was His determination to die, it follows that God knew in advance what must happen. But this is not because God knew it. Rather it was because He determined it.

But foreknowledge alone does not prove that something must happen, but rather that it will happen. If a decision is truly free, then it is God who must know what will happen, and if something else will be decided, then God must know that instead. It's not that God knows what must happen, but that God must know what will happen. It is impossible for him to know otherwise.

 

[Van]

God knows what He will make happen.

 

[Easystreet]

I disagree with parts of the five point statement. Lets take point 4. Verse 18 says Jesus laid down His life on His own initiative. He had the authority to lay it down. But He was commanded to lay it down by His Father, and since Jesus alway does the will of the Father, being sinless, He was not free to not accept the cup without His Father's blessing. As Peter says in Acts 2:23, God had predetermined that Christ would die on the cross. (I do understand your thinking but we disagree. God is free to determine, No one forces God/Jesus to determine, so what God determines is free choice and willful. God's freedom is determination to do something and His freedom to lay down His life is completely in compliance and agreement with His free choice to willfully lay down this life and take it up again.) I see Freedom and determination working together. I can't see one before the other in one respect yet in a logical manner God is love and even God does not coerced Himself. I see both as true. What God freely decides to do He determins to do and this is Pre-determined. He pre-determined that what He freely chose to accomplish would come to pass -yes because He has all power to bring it to pass. God is Holy and He has the power to fulfill his commitment to accomplish what He freely decided to do and this He pre-determined.

Lets take point three. If God has predestined something, and God is all powerful, then no plan of God can be thwarted. Agree Thus God knows what He has predestined, and what He has predestined must come about because God is all powerful. Totally agree - God freely determined before Creation to accomplish what He decided to do. God's free choice - He is free - He also - pre-determined prior to it all taking place because He willed it freely and has the power to carry out any free act He decides to do.

Psalm 147:5 says God's understanding or knowledge is beyond what we can measure or understand. Rather than "infinite" a more literal translation would be "innumerable."

Isaiah 46:10 says God declares the end from the beginning, so this supports the idea that whatever God has declared, He has predestined, and therefore causes the predestined event or circumstance to come about.

Role Play: I am God. I freely decide to die and the live. Now I decide to bring it to pass. Both are true. Free will and Pre-determined to carry our the choice "free choice".

 

[Van]

I do understand your thinking but we disagree. God is free to determine, No one forces God/Jesus to determine, so what God determines is free choice and willful. God's freedom is determination to do something and His freedom to lay down His life is completely in compliance and agreement with His free choice to willfully lay down this life and take it up again.) I see Freedom and determination working together. I can't see one before the other in one respect yet in a logical manner God is love and even God does not coerced Himself. I see both as true. What God freely decides to do He determins to do and this is Pre-determined. He pre-determined that what He freely chose to accomplish would come to pass -yes because He has all power to bring it to pass. God is Holy and He has the power to fulfill his commitment to accomplish what He freely decided to do and this He pre-determined.

I think you are confusing two separate issues. God in eternity past determined that Christ would die as the Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:17-21. God was free to establish this plan, and God the Son freely agreed with the plan, Philiappians 2:5-8. But once the predestined plan, Acts 2:23, was put in motion, Jesus was not free, due to God's command, to not accept the cup, without the Father's blessing.

 

[Easystreet]

Van don't you just love discussing these issues?

 

[livingword26]

(3) Thus, Jesus must die on the Cross. (If he had not died on the Cross, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. But an all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.)

(5) Therefore, one and the same event is both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time.

Your jump from God "foreknew" in 3, to God "predetermined" in 5 is a bit misleading. The words to not mean the same thing.

 

[Easystreet]

Question For Everyone:

Did Adam and Eve have free will before the fall?

Did Adam and Eve have free will after the fall?

 

[cygnusx1]

Question For Everyone:

Did Adam and Eve have free will before the fall?

Did Adam and Eve have free will after the fall?

it might be best if you define free-will first .........


now , Free-will (as far as I am concerned) means the ability to act WITHOUT being forced against one's will , ie, no-one holds a gun to your head and says sin or die.

so , in my definition Adam had free-will , and fallen man has still got it , that is one reason why sinners are responsible , they were not forced into crimes against God , they did what they wanted to do.

all other definitions of free-will I cannot believe exist.

 

[Easystreet]

So in your thinking Man (Adam) had free will to not sin and free will to sin.

Man now after Adam fell has free will to continue in sin and free will to accept salvation.

If Man has free will to continue in sin that would mean to be real free will he would have to be able to accept salvation.

What say you.

 

[cygnusx1]

So in your thinking Man (Adam) had free will to not sin and free will to sin.

Man now after Adam fell has free will to continue in sin and free will to accept salvation.

If Man has free will to continue in sin that would mean to be real free will he would have to be able to accept salvation.

What say you.

man can only do that which he desires most , the factor of the power of temptation speaks more of the problem of the will rather than it's strength of freedom , and most Christians posit free-will theories in order to defend the "right" to sin ........ they even say it is the only philosphical basis for love , I am not a fan of these views.

Adam had the freedom to act according to his strongest desire , he could not have sinned IF there had been no commandment from God.
God knew for certain Adam would sin , and mankind lost the desire to seek God and Love God instead choosing to worship the creature , this is not a step of freedom but a mire of slavery posing as freedom.
Could Adam have remained innocent ? yes , but only if God willed it by securing it.

 

[Van]

Of course they (Adam and Eve) had free will. But that does not mean God did not know their heart, their core character, and did not arrange for Satan deceive Eve and put the temptation of violating God's command before Adam, knowing that Adam would fail. Just as Jesus knew Peter would fail.

Do not buy the compatalist argument that we cannot make choices, that we are compelled by our past. This redefines the meaning of the word choice. God sets before us a choice, and exhorts us to choose life. We are not compelled by our fallen state with our limited spiritual ability to reject the gospel, see Matthew 13:20-23. Unregenerate folks can receive the gospel with joy. On the other hand, folks entering the kingdom of God can be shutoff from heaven by false teachings Matthew 23:13. Choice any way you slice it.

 

[Easystreet]

Did God will Adam to sin?

 

[Easystreet]

Norman Geisler states, "Who made the devil do it? Of, more precisely, who caused Lucifer to sin? If free choice is doing what one desires, and if all desires come form God, then if follows logically that God made Lucifer sin against God! But it is contradictory to say that God ever could be against God. God is essentially good. He cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). In fact, He cannot even look with approval on sin. Habakkuk says to God: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong" (1:13). James reminds us that "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, not does he tempt anyone" (1:13).

How made Lucifer / Satan sin? Did God will Lucifer to sin? If man prior to the fall and Satan too are will to fall then man is not responsible for his sin. If God is behind this then He will man to sin and this is against His nature. That is a contradiction.