Another Mistake by Joseph Smith

[Rescued One]

"The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men. The devil's retaliation is, he comes into this world, binds up men's bodies, and occupies them himself. When the authorities come along, they eject him from a stolen habitation. (Teachings, p. 305)

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power." (Teachings, p. 181)

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22).
LDS BIBLE DICTIONARY

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."
Teachings, p. 181

Basically, he's saying that mortal humans have power over the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ran77]

"The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men. The devil's retaliation is, he comes into this world, binds up men's bodies, and occupies them himself. When the authorities come along, they eject him from a stolen habitation. (Teachings, p. 305)

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power." (Teachings, p. 181)

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22).
LDS BIBLE DICTIONARY

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."
Teachings, p. 181

Basically, he's saying that mortal humans have power over the Holy Ghost.

What power do mortals have over spirits?

What exactly is it that we have over the devil? Is it as you posted above: the devil only has power over us that we permit? Or is it something else?

If this power is that the devil only has power over us to the point that we permit, then explain to me how this is different in how you would identify our relationship with the Holy Ghost? Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has power over us beyond what we permit? Or can we be enlightened only the amount which we permit?


A mistake by Joseph Smith - or simply a case of you not understanding what he said?

 

[Rescued One]

What power do mortals have over spirits?

What exactly is it that we have over the devil? Is it as you posted above: the devil only has power over us that we permit? Or is it something else?

If this power is that the devil only has power over us to the point that we permit, then explain to me how this is different in how you would identify our relationship with the Holy Ghost? Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has power over us beyond what we permit? Or can we be enlightened only the amount which we permit?


A mistake by Joseph Smith - or simply a case of you not understanding what he said?

So the Holy Ghost has no more power than Satan in LDS teachings?

 

[Ran77]

So the Holy Ghost has no more power than Satan in LDS teachings?

I didn't indicate that. I see nothing in the LDS quotes you used that makes any mention of it either. That is something that you have added to this discussion.

Not to mention, it moves away from the point you were attempting to make. Let's return to my questions which have much more relavance to the statement you made:

What power do mortals have over spirits?

What exactly is it that we have over the devil? Is it as you posted above: the devil only has power over us that we permit? Or is it something else?

If this power is that the devil only has power over us to the point that we permit, then explain to me how this is different in how you would identify our relationship with the Holy Ghost? Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has power over us beyond what we permit? Or can we be enlightened only the amount which we permit?

 

[Rescued One]

I didn't indicate that. I see nothing in the LDS quotes you used that makes any mention of it either. That is something that you have added to this discussion.

Not to mention, it moves away from the point you were attempting to make. Let's return to my questions which have much more relavance to the statement you made:

What power do mortals have over spirits?

Christians, not unbelievers, have power over evil spirits. Christians do not have power over God.

What exactly is it that we have over the devil? Is it as you posted above: the devil only has power over us that we permit? Or is it something else?

If this power is that the devil only has power over us to the point that we permit, then explain to me how this is different in how you would identify our relationship with the Holy Ghost? Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has power over us beyond what we permit? Or can we be enlightened only the amount which we permit?

We can only be enlightened as much as God permits. We are so grateful for the mercy he shows us.

There is sufficient scripture to show that it is God who has power over man.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:18

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:21

19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:19-20

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 11:10

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Joshua 11:20

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Isaiah 63:17

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:25-26

 

[Ran77]

Christians, not unbelievers, have power over evil spirits. Christians do not have power over God.

While LDS are Christians, this thread isn't about Christianity in general. So this statement really serves no purpose. In my text, which you responded to, I already indicated that I didn't suggest this and LDS don't believe this. This is supposed to be about what Joseph Smith taught.

Now, based on the quotes you posted for this thread: what power do mortals have over spirits?

We can only be enlightened as much as God permits. We are so grateful for the mercy he shows us.

Then where is the problem? I already indicated the same.

There is sufficient scripture to show that it is God who has power over man.

God? Now you have changed who was being discussed. Wasn't your statement about the Holy Ghost? Isn't my reply about the Holy Ghost? What purpose does it serve to change things around like this?

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:18

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:21

19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:19-20

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 11:10

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Joshua 11:20

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Isaiah 63:17

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:25-26

And these have what to do with Joseph Smith discussing how mortals have power over spirits? Do they in fact have anything to do with it? Joseph made no mention of God. LDS do not consider God to be on the same level as the spirits that Joseph is talking about. Bringing God into the mix is not representative of LDS belief - it is something that you have added to it. What purpose does that serve?

 

[Ran77]

I am still not finding that these questions are being answered:

What power do mortals have over spirits?

What power exactly is it that we have over the devil?


If this power is that the devil only has power over us to the point that we permit, then explain to me how this is different in how you would identify our relationship with the Holy Ghost?

Do you believe that the Holy Ghost has power over us beyond what we permit?

(I think that your comment about God enlightening us only as much as He permits is an answer to this question. Let me know if it is not.)


Or can we be enlightened only the amount which we permit? (Can God or the Holy Ghost enlighten us past the amount which we permit?)

 

[Zechariah]

Basically, he's saying that mortal humans have power over the Holy Ghost.

How do you reason he is saying that?




Is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of a fallen devil? No.

Is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of a fallen man? No.

Men have bodies, yes, but they are fallen beings.




How can a fallen being, any fallen being, have any power over the Holy Spirit?

 

[RufustheRed]

How do you reason he is saying that?

I know that this is not addressed to me, but I believe that the answer is obvious. She posted JS in the OP. ""All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."Teachings, p. 181

Are not we with bodies considered part of "ALL BEINGS?"

Is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of a fallen devil? No.

Your point?

Is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of a fallen man? No.

Your point?

Men have bodies, yes, but they are fallen beings.

Really? Is that because we "pre-existed?" When did we become fallen beings?

How can a fallen being, any fallen being, have any power over the Holy Spirit?

I think this is a question for your founder and the source of the book, "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith."

Indeed!

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

God? Now you have changed who was being discussed. Wasn't your statement about the Holy Ghost? Isn't my reply about the Holy Ghost? What purpose does it serve to change things around like this?

When did the Holy Ghost cease to be God?

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin.
LDS Bible Dictionary

 

[SoftSpoken]

"The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men. The devil's retaliation is, he comes into this world, binds up men's bodies, and occupies them himself. When the authorities come along, they eject him from a stolen habitation. (Teachings, p. 305)

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power." (Teachings, p. 181)

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22).
LDS BIBLE DICTIONARY

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."
Teachings, p. 181

Basically, he's saying that mortal humans have power over the Holy Ghost.

In mortality, we have the same power over the Holy Ghost as we do over the devil. Neither one of them has any power to force us to do anything. Satan tempts, the Spirit prompts, but neither can actually force his will upon us.

Another way I see this exhibited is in a spirit's inability to interact at will with temporal things. In Mark 5, when the devils were cast out of the "wild" man, they had to ask permission to inhabit the bodies of the swine before they could possess them. It would seem that they cannot just inhabit whatever house they choose. Men are agents unto themselves, and can therefore give the devil permission to inhabit their bodies. Animals are not agents unto themselves, and therefore it appears that devils must receive permission from Him to whom the animals belong before their bodies may be inhabited.

In the resurrection, we will also have power over unembodied spirits. Exactly what that power is I could not say, other than it must be some kind of extension of the power we possess already over such spirits. God made it clear to Cain that in the resurrection, he (Cain) would rule over Satan, which is a highlighting of this principle. (Moses 5:23)

Those are my thoughts here.

 

[Zechariah]

Your point?

My point is in what I asked.

How can fallen beings have power over the Holy Spirit?

Can I usurp the authority of God, and control the Holy Spirit in the exercise of His power? Of course not.

It has been given me, of God, the freedom and power over myself, to be an agent unto myself, and in this I can choose to listen to the Holy Spirit, or I can choose not to listen to him, and choose to listen to the devil instead. Because God has given me that freedom and power, I can so choose of myself, and the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of God, and His witness, honors that God given agency.

But, can I impose my will upon the Holy Spirit in the exercise of His power? I say no, I cannot.

 

[RufustheRed]

... text omitted for brevity ...​

How can a fallen being, any fallen being, have any power over the Holy Spirit?

In other threads, I was told that because of the atonement, all of mankind was/is redeemed. If we are redeemed, how and when did we become fallen beings?



Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

My point is in what I asked.

How can fallen beings have power over the Holy Spirit?

Was Joseph Smith saying that a fallen being had power over the Holy Ghost? No, Satan does not have power over the Holy Ghost even in LDS teachings.

Did Joseph Smith say that some beings who have bodies have power over those who have not? No, he said, "All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not."
Teachings, p. 181

Is man fallen or redeemed?

But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.
2 Nephi 1:15

For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
Moroni 8:22

So do people become fallen at age eight? If not, at what age do they become fallen and when do they become redeemed the second time?

 

[Rescued One]

In mortality, we have the same power over the Holy Ghost as we do over the devil. Neither one of them has any power to force us to do anything. Satan tempts, the Spirit prompts, but neither can actually force his will upon us.

Thank you for your thoughts.

How many Gods are there in heaven?

"That which is without body, parts and passions is nothing. There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones. John 5:26. As the Father hath life in himself, even so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. God the Father took life unto himself precisely as Jesus did."
Teachings, p.181

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him."
Teachings, p. 181

So how can the Holy Ghost have power over Satan if he has no body?

Where does it say that man does not have power over all beings without a body?

 

[RufustheRed]

Thank you for your thoughts.

How many Gods are there in heaven?

"That which is without body, parts and passions is nothing. There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones. John 5:26. As the Father hath life in himself, even so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. God the Father took life unto himself precisely as Jesus did."
Teachings, p.181

"All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him."
Teachings, p. 181

So how can the Holy Ghost have power over Satan if he has no body?

Where does it say that man does not have power over all beings without a body?

Then according to Mr. Smith, the Holy Ghost is NOT a god or part of the godhead. Wow! "That which is without body, parts and passions is nothing." The Holy Ghost is N O T H I N G ??? To quote Hogan's Heros, "Verrrrry interesting"

Rufus

 

[Ran77]

When did the Holy Ghost cease to be God?

He didn't. He was dragged into this by you. Joseph Smith wasn't discussing any of the Godhead when he made his statement on this topic. No one has claimed that the Holy Ghost ceased to be God.

Maybe you can be a little more specific in your posts. Since in LDS doctrine the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God and are all seperate individuals it would be best that you not simply make referrences to God without indicating which one you mean.

Were all the comments you made about the Holy Ghost?

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin.
LDS Bible Dictionary

And my questions remain unanswered. Why is that? This - Holy Ghost is God - seems to be a diversionary tactic. What point is served by posting this description of the Holy Ghost?

 

[Ran77]

Christians, not unbelievers, have power over evil spirits. Christians do not have power over God.

Apparently, from your response to me, when you use God here you meant the Holy Ghost. Is that correct?

We can only be enlightened as much as God permits. We are so grateful for the mercy he shows us.

And this too is a referrence to the Holy Ghost?

There is sufficient scripture to show that it is God who has power over man.

And this too is a referrence to the Holy Ghost?

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:18


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:21

19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:19-20

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 11:10

For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Joshua 11:20

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Isaiah 63:17

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:25-26

And all of these verses are meant to refer to the Holy Ghost? Is that correct?

 

[Ran77]

So how can the Holy Ghost have power over Satan if he has no body?

Where in the Bible does it show the Holy Ghost having power over satan?

 

[Rescued One]

Where in the Bible does it show the Holy Ghost having power over satan?

LDS source:

Members of the Church may have the blessing of the Holy Ghost, the prompter, as a companion as well, and when the Holy Ghost is really within us, Satan must remain without. Study of the scriptures, prayer, faithful living of the commandments of the Lord, the discharge of church obligations and duties, being a considerate neighbor, and using the heaven-sent program of family home evenings can provide a basis for having the Holy Ghost as a constant companion and protector, which will result in peace and happiness.
ElRay L. Christiansen, “Power Over Satan,” Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 22


Bible on God's omnipotence and power over Satan:


How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38



The devil may take people captive, but God(Father, Son, Holy Ghost) can deliver them:

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26