Another Flood Question

Aman777 · Nov 14, 2017

joshua 1 9 said:
New data obtained during excavations on Van Castle has revealed that Lake Van was much smaller 7,000 years ago and has risen over time to reach its current size. New research overturns theories about Lake Van

Doesn't matter except to the size of Adam's firmament. This means that Adam's entire world/kosmos fit into a smaller space perhaps only 10 miles wide instead of 10.5. The firmament lies today at the bottom of the Lake waiting for someone to discover proof of life from another world.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 14, 2017

Jimmy D said:
Where does he say they were "thriving"?

Of course they weren’t thriving, they went almost extinct from a global flood.

I don't see what any of this has to do with your claims of a global flood anyway, care to explain?

It’s obvious. All dinosaur fossils are found in sedimentary rock. And despite your claims that local floods, lakes and rivers can cause fossilization, you have yet to provide one single animal in any of these places undergoing fossilization post-flood.

You say it’s been extensively studied, yet can’t cite a single solitary one lasting long enough to begin fossilization.

In fact one of your evolutionary buddies showed how mistaken you all are. He showed layers of shells 4,000 to 10,000 years old. Layers of shells with not a single fish fossil or animal fossil. Even if everyone here understands animals and fish existed right alongside them.

But we all know how evolutionists refuse to apply observations to the past. So like in the past we have layers of shells, then a catastrophic event and fossils of other marine life and then fossils of animals. Just as in real life we see marine life die first in rising muddy water, then finally animals that can’t escape to high enough ground. But you like to ignore reality in the past.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 14, 2017

Jimmy D said:
What are you prattling about, you bought up the 3 metre gap. It's not up for debate, is right here in the thread in black and white.

Because you brought up the K-T boundary, but didn’t feel it necessary to inform readers of that 3 meter gap.....

Why do I need to show animals fossilizing "post flood"? I'm citing paleontolgical and geological sources, universities, professors etc. What about you?

I am citing the actual evidence in where not a single animal has been found fossilizing, despite all your professors saying it can happen by those events, yet can’t provide you with a single solitary example. Sorry, empericial observational data (or in this case lack thereof) trumps your professors claims any day. They are strong on claims, but far short of any actual evidence.

All you can present is some nonsensical opinion that goes aginst well understood scientific principals, no evidence, no references. I know I'm not going to convince you because you are too proud you think you might be wrong. You think you know more about fossils than professional paleotologists, more about geology than the world's geologists, more about relativity and physics than the world's physicists and more about genetics than every qualified biologist and institution.

How can I present evidence that fossilization is occurring when it isn’t? That’s your claim you can’t provide evidence for, not mine. I say it isn’t, since you can’t provide a single one beginning fossilization, the evidence supports my claims, not theirs. Surely all your experts based their belief on some type of evidence and not mere claims? Oops, no, they just made claims.

In fact, I don't believe I've ever seen you waiver on your outlandish claims despite being shown multiple and numerous scientific references in every thread you've participated in. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you show such a stubborn reluctance to accept any information contrary to your beliefs? I suppose at the very least these exchanges go some way to expose the inadequacy and shallowness of creationist thinking so they aren't a complete waste of time.

You haven’t shown any evidence, that’s why I am asking for you to show me a single solitary one beginning fossilization. All you have given me is someone you say has studied it, is an expert, yet can’t provide a single example either...

As for other evidence that goes back to your ignoring scientific definitions, which support my claims too, not theirs. That’s why you don’t like to talk about finches.

As there has never been a global flood, as every geologist in the world has attested for the last 200 years (apart from the odd creationist shill of course), and you have absolutely zero evidence of one, this seems a tad hypocritical.

Please put up your evidence for a worldwide flood or shut up.

I’ve given you 73% of the earths surface as sedimentary layers. I’ve given you 99.9% of all fossils found in those layers.

You have given me claims that local floods, streams and lake beds cause fossilization too. But have yet to provide a single bone beginning fossilization in any of these places in recent history we can confirm was not caused by a global flood.

Not even ONE????

Oh, but that’s right, lack of evidence is evidence to an evolutionist. That’s like asking to be shown a single solitary common ancestor that split for any evolutionary tree.

PsychoSarah · Nov 14, 2017

joshua 1 9 said:
The question is could they pass the subway test. If you were to see a Cro Magnon on a NY subway could he pass for a native New Yorker? Or would people think that he was a foreigner?

-_- dude, same species as us. So, unless said Cro Magnon was dressed the same as actual Cro Magnons did and not like modern people, they wouldn't stand out much. People would notice this individual is rather short, but not much else about them would be comment worthy.

MyGivenNameIsKeith · Nov 14, 2017

Justatruthseeker said:
I tend to think it happened when the earth “became - hayah” desolate and waste, and darkness became upon the surface of the deep. Before man was even created.

But then that’s why “was” isn’t even listed as a possible meaning in any concordance for hayah, because it means to fall out or to become, a condition of becoming. But people won’t let the works of God declare his glory, instead confining Him to a singular creation.

There have been six creations and five destructions, with man being part of the sixth creation. Soon there will be a sixth destruction followed by a seventh and final creation.

It was void (empty) (-922 bohu Strong's) This is not meaning desolate or waste in any sense. This is a misconception based upon the reading from Jeremiah concerning judgment upon the land AFTER sin had been introduced, not before. To fill a cup with water, one tends to need to make an empty cup first. The cup was not made completely filled first, then emptied. It was empty to begin with as the words indicate. Also, Notice each step of creation was seen as "good". The serpent had not even been cursed to the ground yet (which is the fall of him by the way, clearly seen here ), until the fall of man under sin in the garden. That is where he attempted to make himself as God. It is easy to see in this perspective that Satan first appeared as an angel of light at this point and prior to here. Some commentary take the first of Genesis without form and void to indicate the period where the angels fell, which was not so. Otherwise, they would have been cursed by the time the serpent appeared to Eve. The 7 days were "good" in the text. It even says so. God saw that it was good. Sin wasn't even introduced yet. All of creation lived according to the words that God spoke. (Thou shalt not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. All 7 days, all of creation followed that commandment. They lived by his words. Until the fall in Eden, where the angels and man, both fell out of touch with God.

Jimmy D · Nov 15, 2017

Justatruthseeker said:
Because you brought up the K-T boundary, but didn’t feel it necessary to inform readers of that 3 meter gap.....

Why would I? I was merely offering an example of a catastrophic event / extinction event other than a flood, I don't believe I mentioned dinosaurs. I'm glad you've finally managed to admit you are wrong about something though.

Justatruthseeker said:
I am citing the actual evidence in where not a single animal has been found fossilizing, despite all your professors saying it can happen by those events, yet can’t provide you with a single solitary example. Sorry, empericial observational data (or in this case lack thereof) trumps your professors claims any day. They are strong on claims, but far short of any actual evidence.

Do be fair you've cited NOTHING apart from your opinion. References to scientific research seems to be lacking in all your posts, I wonder why?

It seems that you are suggesting that because I haven't posted an example of a fossil forming from the last few thousand years that fossilzation can only occur in a worldwide flood. Is that correct? Because it seems like a particularly bizarre and ill thought out claim to make for many reasons....

Firstly, for someone who is so obsessed with scientific defnitions you appear to be ignoring the fact that fossils are defined as over 10,000 years old. A lack of "recent" fossils would in NO WAY impact our understanding of how fossils were formed in the past, and ofcorse, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course all that demonstrates that your thought process is extremely lacking, but as I mentioned before, I couldn't be bothered to present any examples of subfossils (there, you've learnt something today) because of the inevitable hand waving and denial you typically exhibit.

Justatruthseeker said:
How can I present evidence that fossilization is occurring when it isn’t? That’s your claim you can’t provide evidence for, not mine. I say it isn’t, since you can’t provide a single one beginning fossilization, the evidence supports my claims, not theirs. Surely all your experts based their belief on some type of evidence and not mere claims? Oops, no, they just made claims.

I didn't say I couldn't.

Justatruthseeker said:
You haven’t shown any evidence, that’s why I am asking for you to show me a single solitary one beginning fossilization. All you have given me is someone you say has studied it, is an expert, yet can’t provide a single example either...

Fine, will you drop this ridiculous line of argument if I do?

In 2005, after a hundred years of neglect, a part of the Mare aux Songes swamp was excavated by an international team of researchers (International Dodo Research Project). To prevent malaria, the British had covered the swamp with hard core during their rule over Mauritius, which had to be removed. Many remains were found, including bones of at least 17 dodos in various stages of maturity (though no juveniles), and several bones obviously from the skeleton of one individual bird, which have been preserved in their natural position.[113] These findings were made public in December 2005 in the Naturalis museum in Leiden. 63% of the fossils found in the swamp belonged to turtles of the extinct Cylindraspis genus, and 7.1% belonged to dodos, which had been deposited within several centuries, 4,000 years ago.[114] Subsequent excavations suggested that dodos and other animals became mired in the Mare aux Songes while trying to reach water during a long period of severe drought about 4,200 years ago.

Dodo - Wikipedia

Much of the ‘fossil’ record for lemurs is recent by fossil standards, and so most specimens haven’t become fully fossilized. As a result, lemur paleontology is besprinkled with the term “subfossil,” indicating bones that are really old and belong to extinct animals, but don’t fit the technical definition of fossils. The lemur subfossil record has taught us a lot about the evolutionary history, adaptations, and recently even genetics of this primitive group of primates, as well as about the ecological history of Madagascar.

eFfing #FossilFriday: Subfossil lemurs

Subfossil lemurs are lemurs from Madagascar that are represented by recent (subfossil) remains dating from nearly 26,000 years ago (from the late Pleistocene until the Holocene) to approximately 560 years ago. They include both living and extinct species, although the term more frequently refers to the extinct giant lemurs. The diversity of subfossil lemur communities was greater than that of present-day lemur communities, ranging from as high as 20 or more species per location, compared with 10 to 12 species today. Extinct species are estimated to have ranged in size from slightly over 10 kg (22 lb) to roughly 160 kg (350 lb). Even the subfossil remains of living species are larger and more robust than the skeletal remains of modern specimens. The subfossil sites found around most of the island demonstrate that most giant lemurs had wide distributions and that ranges of living species have contracted significantly since the arrival of humans.

Subfossil lemur - Wikipedia

Madagascar’s subfossil record preserves a diverse community of animals including elephant birds, pygmy hippopotamus, giant lemurs, turtles, crocodiles, bats, rodents, and carnivorans. These fossil accumulations give us a window into the island’s past from 80,000 years ago to a mere few hundred years ago, recording the extinction of some groups and the persistence of others. The crocodylian subfossil record is limited to two taxa, Voay robustus and Crocodylus niloticus, found at sites distributed throughout the island. V. robustus is extinct while C. niloticus is still found on the island today, but whether these two species overlapped temporally, or if Voay was driven to extinction by competing with Crocodylus remains unknown. While their size and presumed behavior was similar to each other, nearly nothing is known about the growth and development of Voay, as the overwhelming majority of fossil specimens represent mature adult individuals. Here we describe a nearly complete juvenile crocodylian specimen from Anjohibe Cave, northwestern Madagascar. The specimen is referred to Crocodylus based on the presence of caviconchal recesses on the medial wall of the maxillae, and to C. niloticus based on the presence of an oval shaped internal choana, lack of rostral ornamentation and a long narrow snout. However, as there are currently no described juvenile specimens of Voay robustus, it is important to recognize that some of the defining characteristics of that genus may have changed through ontogeny. Elements include a nearly complete skull and many postcranial elements (cervical, thoracic, sacral, and caudal vertebrae, pectoral elements, pelvic elements, forelimb and hindlimb elements, osteoderms). Crocodylus niloticus currently inhabits Madagascar but is locally extinct from this particular region; radiometric dating indicates an age of ∼460–310 years before present (BP). This specimen clearly represents a juvenile based on the extremely small size and open sutures/detached neural arches; total body length is estimated to be ∼1.1 m (modern adults of this species range from ∼4–6 m). This fossil represents the only juvenile subfossil crocodylian specimen reported from Madagascar.2013).

A juvenile subfossil crocodylian from Anjohibe Cave, Northwestern Madagascar

A new study by Trevor H. Worthy, Miyess Mitri, Atholl Anderson and colleagues allowed for a new conclusion. After an analysis of the 600 or so subfossil remains of the bird, some of which are more than 5000 years old, it was realized just what kind of bird Sylviornis was. It was not a real megapode as its name suggested, instead being a sort of primitive stem-Galliforme. Thus it lay at the very base of this huge bird family.

There are even clues to the birds’ extinction, and probably the extinction of many of the native New Caledonian fauna. Six years ago members of the same research team of Anderson and Worthy and a few other colleagues published a study about the end of these animals. It was published in the Journal of Pacific Archaeology, and included research material from New Caledonia’s Pindai Cave system. Pindai is one of the richest of the island’s fossil sites and contained the bones of about 45 species of birds. These included kagu, still alive today, species of snipe, owlet-nightjars and of course Sylviornis. Birds were not the only creatures here though. The animals found in Pindai include mice, rats, bats, monitor lizards and even the terrestrial crocodile Mekosuchus, the island’s apex predator. Radiocarbon dating of the fossils told the team that the chronologically youngest remains of the “giant chicken” were about 3000 years old.

The giant chickens of New Caledonia | Earth Archives

tas8831 · Nov 15, 2017

joshua 1 9 said:
Not very well what? This looks like an illegal flame

At least it wasn't plagiarism.

Jimmy D · Nov 15, 2017

Justatruthseeker said:
Of course they weren’t thriving, they went almost extinct from a global flood.

So why did you use the word "thriving"? I didn't see the word "thriving" in the article you linked, was it yet another of your strawmen?

Aman777 · Nov 15, 2017

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:
The 7 days were "good" in the text. It even says so. God saw that it was good. Sin wasn't even introduced yet. All of creation lived according to the words that God spoke. (Thou shalt not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. All 7 days, all of creation followed that commandment. They lived by his words. Until the fall in Eden, where the angels and man, both fell out of touch with God.

Since the prophecy of Genesis 1:28-31 is future to 2017, why do you think the 7 Days/Ages of Creation are in the past? The 7th Day/Age is Eternity and has no end.

MyGivenNameIsKeith · Nov 15, 2017

Aman777 said:
Since the prophecy of Genesis 1:28-31 is future to 2017, why do you think the 7 Days/Ages of Creation are in the past? The 7th Day/Age is Eternity and has no end.

The structure of God's Word is as he is, from everlasting to everlasting. The Word of God is about the past, the present, and the future, all at the same time. The creation here as being discussed was concerning the flood of water. If you must, the flood can be taken to mean the judgment of God during three specific times. Two of which have occurred that concern us. The last flood will be a flood of fire. So Genesis is the past, but it is also the future at the same time. You're twisting my words just to incite argument, stop.

HitchSlap · Nov 15, 2017

Aman777 said:
Doesn't matter except to the size of Adam's firmament.

Size matters.

Amen?!

Tom 1 · Nov 16, 2017

Here are a few verses that use similar universal, ‘whole world’ terminology, but where the context is more suggestive that what is/seems to be meant is the ‘known world’, i.e. the ancient near east:
Genesis 41:57
Deut 2:25
1 Kings 4:34/10:24
2 Chronicles 36:23
Daniel 2:38,4:22 (less clear?), 5:19
It seems to me that the inspired biblical writers sometimes used language for dramatic effect, to drive home a particular point, or to highlight a difference between the actual actions of God and other myths that had grown out of the same events, e.g the Gilgamesh epic. What is the point of the story? That mankind, in the bloodline of Cain, had turned entirely away from God in order to live according to their own impulses and notions about right and wrong, whereas through the line of Seth Noah, who remained committed to God, provided God with a means to set the rescue of mankind in motion. As the rest of the Torah generally deals with people living in the Ancient Near East, is there a reason to think that the flood story is different and includes the entire globe?

Jimmy D · Nov 16, 2017

Justatruthseeker said:
But have yet to provide a single bone beginning fossilization in any of these places in recent history we can confirm was not caused by a global flood.

Not even ONE????

Any comment on the few examples I provided? I'm interested to see what excuse you're going to find for dismissing them?

It's difficult enough to take your claims about paleontology seriously as it is, but your ignorance of subfossils is quite staggering and really confirms that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. How can you justify dismissing my citations from various academic institutions etc when it's apparent that you haven't even got a layman's understanding of the subject?

Aman777 · Nov 16, 2017

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:
The structure of God's Word is as he is, from everlasting to everlasting. The Word of God is about the past, the present, and the future, all at the same time. The creation here as being discussed was concerning the flood of water. If you must, the flood can be taken to mean the judgment of God during three specific times. Two of which have occurred that concern us. The last flood will be a flood of fire. So Genesis is the past, but it is also the future at the same time. You're twisting my words just to incite argument, stop.

Not so. I support what I write with God's Holy Word. Genesis one is the entire History of God's 6 Days of Creation, including events which are future to our time. Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of events which take place AFTER Jesus returns, UNLESS you can tell us WHEN Humans had dominion or rule over viruses and Angels AND when in the past EVERY living creature was a vegetarian as Gen 1:30 states.

Aman777 · Nov 16, 2017

HitchSlap said:
Size matters.

Amen?!

In the case of Adam's firmament or Universe, the size was very small. The flood covered the highest mountains on Adam's Earth when the flood was only 22.5 ft deep. Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

See? Adam lived on a Flat Earth which was on top of water, which was in the bottom of the firmament, and ONLY 22.5 feet in elevation unlike Mt Everest which is more than 29,000 feet high. Today, Adam's firmament (evidence of God and life BEFORE our Universe) is at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey, in the mountains of Ararat. Amen?

Aman777 · Nov 16, 2017

Tom Farebrother said:
It seems to me that the inspired biblical writers sometimes used language for dramatic effect, to drive home a particular point, or to highlight a difference between the actual actions of God and other myths that had grown out of the same events, e.g the Gilgamesh epic.

Genesis chapter one, which properly interpreted, in the last days before the return of Jesus, shows that God HID His Truth in the scientific discoveries of the last days. Dan 12:4 At that time, God is going to pour out His Spirit (Spirit of Truth) upon "ALL Flesh" Act 2:17 Can you tell us HOW God is going to reveal His Truth to Atheists? We live today at that time.

HitchSlap · Nov 16, 2017

Aman777 said:
In the case of Adam's firmament or Universe, the size was very small. The flood covered the highest mountains on Adam's Earth when the flood was only 22.5 ft deep. Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

See? Adam lived on a Flat Earth which was on top of water, which was in the bottom of the firmament, and ONLY 22.5 feet in elevation unlike Mt Everest which is more than 29,000 feet high. Today, Adam's firmament (evidence of God and life BEFORE our Universe) is at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey, in the mountains of Ararat. Amen?

It's not the size of the wave, but the motion of the ocean.

Amen?!

Aman777 · Nov 16, 2017

HitchSlap said:
It's not the size of the wave, but the motion of the ocean.

Amen?!

Are you running for Senate from Alabama, or is this the real Trump?

HitchSlap · Nov 16, 2017

Aman777 said:
Can you tell us HOW God is going to reveal His Truth to Atheists? We live today at that time.

It would appear he's using the scientific method to reveal his truth.

HitchSlap · Nov 16, 2017

Aman777 said:
Are you running for Senate from Alabama, or is this the real Trump?

Amen?!

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